Protein Powder Recs?

redraidergirl2009
redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
edited November 24 in Food and Nutrition
Does anyone have any suggestions for a protein powder with no artificial sweeteners, just found out mine had them and I don't want them anymore. I was thinking of soy or whey ones? Something that will blend well with fruit and also one that is chocolate that I can mix with water or almond milk pretty quick after a work out that isn't horrible tasting.
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Replies

  • sixxpoint
    sixxpoint Posts: 3,529 Member
    What do you have against artificial sweeteners, like Sucralose? There's no real science for avoiding it so don't get caught up in the media hype against it.

    Usually, protein powder offers 18-26 grams of protein and 100-250 calories on average when mixed in water or milk. There's no need to blend fruit, ice, or other solid ingredients with them. And it's fine if that is your preference, but that routine will get old real quick.
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    edited September 2015
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?
  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    Lookup "About Time Protein"
  • hellonew2015
    hellonew2015 Posts: 327 Member
    Does anyone have any suggestions for a protein powder with no artificial sweeteners, just found out mine had them and I don't want them anymore. I was thinking of soy or whey ones? Something that will blend well with fruit and also one that is chocolate that I can mix with water or almond milk pretty quick after a work out that isn't horrible tasting.

    I mix unsweetened chocolate almond milk with Isopure unflavored whey protein and stevia, optional some 100% coco powder in addition
  • Delana2015
    Delana2015 Posts: 1 Member
    I use Arbonne essentials protein powder. It's vegan, no GMOs and gluten free w no artificial
    Sweeteners. Contains stevia and pure cane sugar ( equivalent to a small green apple). I mix mine w water. I love to put canned pumpkin in the vanilla powder w cinnamon and I add 1/4 avocado to the chocolate to make it thicker , almost like pudding. LMK if you need any other info.
  • jerier
    jerier Posts: 384 Member
    I really like Promix Grass Fed Whey. I even like it mixed with just water. Organic, raw whey that isn't gritty and kind of tastes like Organic whole milk.
  • jaywirth88
    jaywirth88 Posts: 66 Member
    the Peanut Butter quest protein powder is the best tasting out of the 15 or so that I have tried.
  • jaywirth88
    jaywirth88 Posts: 66 Member
    Oh, its and its a whey and casein blend.
  • DaniYelli27
    DaniYelli27 Posts: 17 Member
    About Time , great taste, all natural.
  • tiny_clanger
    tiny_clanger Posts: 301 Member
    Nutruya unflavoured hemp protein for me. Then I can mix it up with flavours and make it taste of whatever I want
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    jaywirth88 wrote: »
    the Peanut Butter quest protein powder is the best tasting out of the 15 or so that I have tried.
    Quest has Splenda
  • sixxpoint
    sixxpoint Posts: 3,529 Member
    edited September 2015
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    If you didn't realize they were in your protein powder, it's likely not affecting your health or weight loss.

    I have no direct recommendation (my protein powder has artificial sweeteners), but one thing you could do is focus on getting your protein from whole food sources you cook yourself and use those to hit your daily protein goal. Then you don't have to worry about hidden ingredients.
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    auddii wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    If you didn't realize they were in your protein powder, it's likely not affecting your health or weight loss.

    I have no direct recommendation (my protein powder has artificial sweeteners), but one thing you could do is focus on getting your protein from whole food sources you cook yourself and use those to hit your daily protein goal. Then you don't have to worry about hidden ingredients.

    I generally do get my protein from whole sources. I only use protein powder for smoothies which I sometimes have for breakfast because it's quick or after my workout on my lifting days. I'm not using them for snacks or meals anymore. I was using herbalife and fitmiss and quest powders.
  • sixxpoint
    sixxpoint Posts: 3,529 Member
    edited September 2015
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?

    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.
  • kalbo798
    kalbo798 Posts: 58 Member
    edited September 2015
    [/quote]Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.[/quote]


    Who pissed in your corn flakes?
  • kalbo798
    kalbo798 Posts: 58 Member
    kalbo798 wrote: »
    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.[/quote]


    Who pissed in your corn flakes?


  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    edited September 2015
    kalbo798 wrote: »
    Who pissed in your corn flakes?

    Has anyone pissed in yours? LOL
  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    I guess it's a standard way of business here - thread sidetracked as usual. But, since we're off the course, the OP's claim:
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    is inaccurate. IF the weight loss actually happened, it's not because of abstinence from aspartame or Sucralose, but because of reduced calories. Sucralose has 0 calories, aspartame has 4 calories per gram. So, in order to account for the claimed 4lb weight loss, OP must have not eaten about 3,500 grams (that's 7.7 pounds!!!!) of aspartame. And that's "in a week"!!! Nah, not true.
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    MasterVal wrote: »
    I guess it's a standard way of business here - thread sidetracked as usual. But, since we're off the course, the OP's claim:
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    is inaccurate. IF the weight loss actually happened, it's not because of abstinence from aspartame or Sucralose, but because of reduced calories. Sucralose has 0 calories, aspartame has 4 calories per gram. So, in order to account for the claimed 4lb weight loss, OP must have not eaten about 3,500 grams (that's 7.7 pounds!!!!) of aspartame. And that's "in a week"!!! Nah, not true.

    Yup guess my scale is wrong and for some reason my pants fit better too, weird!
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?

    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.

    I don't know how you can say speaking what my experience was is "misinformation". I don't recall you watching me eat or exercise last week. If you did I'm calling the cops.
  • sixxpoint
    sixxpoint Posts: 3,529 Member
    edited September 2015
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?

    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.

    I don't know how you can say speaking what my experience was is "misinformation". I don't recall you watching me eat or exercise last week. If you did I'm calling the cops.

    Hmmmpff... you're just not getting it.

    The misinformation you presented is as follows:

    1. That you lost 4 lbs. in one week and the only thing you did differently was remove drinks with artificial sweeteners from your diet, thereby blaming the use of artificial sweeteners as the cause.
    2. That you not only correlated a diet devoid of artificial sweeteners with losing 4 lbs. in one week, but you also claimed that it was the reason you were experiencing less headaches and urges to snack.
    3. That you somehow ascertained that normal use of artificial sweeteners is unhealthy in general.

    Making these outrageous claims in a public forum can lead to others to believe them and spread that misinformation. I am telling you with extreme confidence that none of the three points you made are accurate. However, if you believe they are correct, then provide scientific proof instead of making arbitrary connections.
  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    Yup guess my scale is wrong and for some reason my pants fit better too, weird!

    I wasn't doubting your scale or your pants, just your rationalization.
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?

    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.

    I don't know how you can say speaking what my experience was is "misinformation". I don't recall you watching me eat or exercise last week. If you did I'm calling the cops.

    Hmmmpff... you're just not getting it.

    The misinformation you presented is as follows:

    1. That you lost 4 lbs. in one week and the only thing you did differently was remove drinks with artificial sweeteners from your diet, thereby blaming the use of artificial sweeteners as the cause.
    2. That you not only correlated a diet devoid of artificial sweeteners with losing 4 lbs. in one week, but you also claimed that it was the reason you were experiencing less headaches and urges to snack.
    3. That you somehow ascertained that normal use of artificial sweeteners is unhealthy in general.

    Making these outrageous claims in a public forum can lead to others to believe them and spread that misinformation. I am telling you with extreme confidence that none of the three points you made are accurate. However, if you believe they are correct, then provide scientific proof instead of making arbitrary connections.

    People are free to believe what they want. If they can't research things on their own they shouldn't be on the internet. I'm just speaking from personal experience. Some people are fine with artificial sweeteners and that's great. But clearly I'm not so I'm removing them from my diet. If you only change one thing and it leads to effects it's pretty clear that it would make sense to attribute it to that one change so if I want to do that how does that effect you in any form or fashion? Looks like you're the one not getting it and taking this way too seriously.
  • abetterluke
    abetterluke Posts: 625 Member
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    sixxpoint wrote: »
    I have against it that I lost 4lbs in a week not changing my eating but only by removing aspertame and Sucralose drinks and I don't have a headache for once in a long time or an ravenous urge to snack. If you're not going to give advice why post?

    Because the arbitrary reasons that you attribute to weight loss don't help you or anyone else... especially in this case where something like Splenda is next to nothing, calorie-wise per serving.

    In order to lose about one pound of tissue weight, you need to consume about 3,500 calories less than you expend. So if you were correct in your assumption that your 4 lb. weight loss was solely due to restricting artificial sweeteners, then you cut 14,000 artificial sweetener calories from your diet in one week (3,500 calories x 4). That wouldn't even be possible with pure sugar, or any single food.

    Reduction of headaches and ravenous urges to snack are also meaningless correlations that you are assigning via a self-fulfilling prophecy, because avoiding artificial sweeteners is healthier "in your mind".

    Lastly, there are no scientific studies that label artificial sweeteners as the culprit for headaches or increased appetite. And there are certainly no studies where cutting them out of one's diet results in weight loss, whether directly or indirectly. If anything, they replace higher calorie refined sugar products and therefore result in a lesser weekly caloric intake.

    I'm not saying you or anyone else should stop eating/drinking artificial sweeteners. That's a personal choice. I don't know if you're so offended because you sell some or something but I can tell you personally that I did sell herbalife and was surprised how much of their stuff if full of artificial sweeteners. I can choose what I do and do not want to put in my body. Now if you don't have any recommendations why are you here?

    Not trying to sell anything... not sure why you got that idea.

    I replied to prevent a spread of misinformation, which I see all too much of on these boards.

    Did you read my above reply at all? Yes, anyone can choose what to put into their body, but I'm asserting with science that all of the reasons you are suggesting that artificial sweeteners are detrimental are completely false. Countless studies have debunked every single one of your inaccurate correlations.

    I don't know how you can say speaking what my experience was is "misinformation". I don't recall you watching me eat or exercise last week. If you did I'm calling the cops.

    Hmmmpff... you're just not getting it.

    The misinformation you presented is as follows:

    1. That you lost 4 lbs. in one week and the only thing you did differently was remove drinks with artificial sweeteners from your diet, thereby blaming the use of artificial sweeteners as the cause.
    2. That you not only correlated a diet devoid of artificial sweeteners with losing 4 lbs. in one week, but you also claimed that it was the reason you were experiencing less headaches and urges to snack.
    3. That you somehow ascertained that normal use of artificial sweeteners is unhealthy in general.

    Making these outrageous claims in a public forum can lead to others to believe them and spread that misinformation. I am telling you with extreme confidence that none of the three points you made are accurate. However, if you believe they are correct, then provide scientific proof instead of making arbitrary connections.

    People are free to believe what they want. If they can't research things on their own they shouldn't be on the internet. I'm just speaking from personal experience. Some people are fine with artificial sweeteners and that's great. But clearly I'm not so I'm removing them from my diet. If you only change one thing and it leads to effects it's pretty clear that it would make sense to attribute it to that one change so if I want to do that how does that effect you in any form or fashion? Looks like you're the one not getting it and taking this way too seriously.

    I think you're the one who's not getting it. YOU PHYSICALLY CANNOT LOSE WEIGHT BY ONLY REMOVING ARTIFICIAL SWEETENERS. IT IS NOT THE WAY SCIENCE WORKS.
  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    People are free to believe what they want. If they can't research things on their own they shouldn't be on the internet. I'm just speaking from personal experience. Some people are fine with artificial sweeteners and that's great. But clearly I'm not so I'm removing them from my diet. If you only change one thing and it leads to effects it's pretty clear that it would make sense to attribute it to that one change so if I want to do that how does that effect you in any form or fashion? Looks like you're the one not getting it and taking this way too seriously.

    Or, maybe, there were more changes that you did not realize... Maybe you slept better, maybe there was less stress, maybe you walked longer, maybe you drank more water, maybe it's just that time of the months, maybe you almost got a cold and your body fought through it...
  • abetterluke
    abetterluke Posts: 625 Member
    Not to mention that if you still lost the weight and had no headaches WHILE having protein powder with artificial sweeteners in it then you can't correlate the two at all.
  • M30834134
    M30834134 Posts: 411 Member
    Not to mention that if you still lost the weight and had no headaches WHILE having protein powder with artificial sweeteners in it then you can't correlate the two at all.

    :smile: that's a good one!
  • abetterluke
    abetterluke Posts: 625 Member
    edited September 2015
    It's like saying "I fit into my pants better and have lost a ton of weight and the only thing I did was start putting my left leg in first instead of my right leg! Except they were backwards..."
This discussion has been closed.