Protein Powder - yay or nay?
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I bet if I ate a 3700 calorie breakfast and then nothing else all day, I wouldn't be as satiated as I am with my meals more spread out, even if it's the same number of calories. That someone else might be would be totally irrelevant to me. Just as irrelevant as that other people like IF.lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
So, in your world, if eating a 200 calorie breakfast instead of a 400 calorie one causes hunger before lunch, the plan is fundamentally flawed?lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
There's something wrong because there's something wrong. That's some top notch logic, right there.lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Why does that necessarily indicate an issue with your plan?lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
The main one of which would be following your advice to cause the hunger in the first place.lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
No they wouldn't.lindsey1979 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »The benefits of meal timing around lifting are so small that it almost certainly wouldn't be worth switching around calories unless the effort and impact on the rest of the day were trivial. If doing so made you hungry earlier or later in the day, for example, it wouldn't be advantageous to do.
The vast majority of lifters would greatly disagree with this statement. The benefits of the meal timing are for muscle recovery from the lifting --- so you maximize the results of all your hard work. People that don't care about that and are just trying to lose weight, maybe. But, it always benefits you to maximize your recovery, regardless of whether your primary goal is lifting, weight loss, body comp, etc.
If you can do it, it's the icing on the cake. We're not, however, talking about competitive athletes here. Going hungry all morning or afternoon in order to get infinitesimally better recovery after lifting probably isn't worth it to most people here.
If you're going hungry all morning or afternoon because you've delayed 200 cals worth of recovery nutrition post-workout, there are bigger problems in your plan.
But, by all means, keep moving the goalposts. 200 more calories at one time is 200 less at some other time, and it doesn't take much of a journey out of the dogmatic to understand that there are plenty of people for whom that would be problematic.
Again, if you can do it, great. Go for it. If you can't, the difference in results will almost certainly be undetectable for the overwhelming majority of MFP users.
ETA: You started with "[eating] a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout" now you're talking about 200 calories, combined, of protein and carbs. If it's a "good deal" of these macros, why are you now minimizing it as a trivial shift?
I picked 200 cals, but that's what the OP specifically said. And, yeah, if your meal timing shift is causing such problems, there are bigger issues in your plan. Period.
Because if you're experiencing the type of hunger you posit -- "going hungry all morning or afternoon" -- from just shifting a recovery drink/meal there is something wrong with your plan.
Wait, is it something "so small" or a "good deal" of it? You keep changing your argument depending on the point you want to try to make.
Ugh, no. There is something wrong because your result has shifted. If you're THAT hungry from shifting a recovery drink/meal (i.e. result) there is something wrong in your plan (i.e. cause). It's actually just basic logic and common sense, but I know neither are all that common on MFP.
Again, though, are we shifting a "good deal" of protein and carbs or something "so small" when implementing your advice?
Yes, because you're still eating the same amount of calories overall. It may take a few days to adjust, but yes, overall, it shouldn't be a big deal AT ALL. Perhaps you should focus more on eating more satisfying foods. Or shift the cals from somewhere else -- like 100 from your breakfast and 100 from your lunch. Or perhaps skipping break fast altogether (plenty of people IF and do it just fine). If you don't want to do any of those, that's another issue.
But, yes, a small shift of 200 cals from one time of the day to another time of day should NOT result in "being hungry all morning or afternoon". If that's happening, you need to shift something in your plan.
Again, though, you said someone should shift a "good deal" of protein and carbs. It's pretty telling that you backed the hell away from that in a hurry.
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Yes if you arent hitting your protein goals through other means.
Weight loss progress is about deficits. You still need to hit nutrutional goals though if you want the benefits of fitness and health.
So based on my weight loss goals calculated from MFP, it says that I should have 60 grams of protein a day. Which I have no problem of hitting without a shake.The recommended amount of protein per day for someone who is concentrating on new muscle synthesis is a range of 0.60-0.80 grams protein per 1 lb. bodyweight. If you regularly fall within this range, then it doesn't matter if you had a shake at 11am, or a steak at 9pm, or no protein from 8am-5pm then 100 grams in one shot at dinner time. It all gets absorbed and utilized assuming you don't overconsume protein past your range.
By those guidelines i would need much more (117 - 156) - should I edit the goal amount for protein?
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Yes if you arent hitting your protein goals through other means.
Weight loss progress is about deficits. You still need to hit nutrutional goals though if you want the benefits of fitness and health.
So based on my weight loss goals calculated from MFP, it says that I should have 60 grams of protein a day. Which I have no problem of hitting without a shake.The recommended amount of protein per day for someone who is concentrating on new muscle synthesis is a range of 0.60-0.80 grams protein per 1 lb. bodyweight. If you regularly fall within this range, then it doesn't matter if you had a shake at 11am, or a steak at 9pm, or no protein from 8am-5pm then 100 grams in one shot at dinner time. It all gets absorbed and utilized assuming you don't overconsume protein past your range.
By those guidelines i would need much more (117 - 156) - should I edit the goal amount for protein?
In my opinion, yes, the protein goals set by MFP are WAAAAY too low if you're looking to preserve LBM/muscle in a caloric deficit.
A good rule of thumb is 1 g per 1 lb LBM (but you've got to know your basic body fat percentage to get your LBM). Many will short hand it and say 0.7-0.8 g per lb body weight assuming that most have 20-30% body fat. If you feel that your body fat is higher than 30%, then you can use the lower number of 0.6 - 0.7. But if you know you're LBM, that's best.
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On the days I do strength training my other half pushes me to drink a protein shake afterwards saying it will help my muscles recover faster. I can tell a difference the next day, my muscles aren't as sore
Timing protein shakes (or protein from whole foods) around your workout is not important. What matters is total intake from all foods per day.
Agreed, timing is not important for protein.
However, carb intake immediately before, during, or after workouts will optimize your bodies use of net carbs and replace glycogen. Timing is much more relevant to carb intake than to protein intake. Eat 15g-30g of quick-absorbing carbs (fruit juice, candy *gasp*, or other carbs that will be digested and put into your blood stream fast) immediately after your workout instead... or right before you work out. Take the protein at other times.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »The benefits of meal timing around lifting are so small that it almost certainly wouldn't be worth switching around calories unless the effort and impact on the rest of the day were trivial. If doing so made you hungry earlier or later in the day, for example, it wouldn't be advantageous to do.
THIS! If you want the protein drink, then have it but if you are getting a good amount of protein the rest of the day, then the shake is not going to significantly impact you in any way.lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.0 -
Nay for me. I don't trust them to have the protein they say they have. I don't trust them to keep out all the things that should be kept out. I just don't swallow pills or powders unless I truly need to AND have some reasonable expectation that they are safe.
I get my protein from food. I find that a swim helps a lot with muscle soreness, but I also kind of accept some soreness. I've kind of become accustomed to it.
However, I'm not trying to build muscle and don't really kill myself with resistance training. It's just a health thing for me. So, there's that.0 -
To explain the difference. MFP is based on a sedentary person, but the .6-.8 is based on lifting.
Yes you can adjust your targets.
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sheermomentum wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.
Actually, you are both wrong. There is some truth to what you are saying as well, but the important things are the sources and the destination of blood glucose (BG) in addition to the pathway. The pathway is secondary for purposes of this conversation.
Eat net carbs - BG rises fairly quickly. If protein and/or fat is being digested simultaneously with net carbs, then BG rise will be slowed as compared with eating only carbs.
Both your liver and your muscles store glycogen. Absorption of BG to convert to glycogen is done through a different pathway than what insulin does, which is not as important here... the important thing is that BG is converted to glycogen.
So when you workout and lose glycogen from your muscles, then you need to pull glycogen out of your liver or you need to use BG that has recently been put into the bloodstream (if glucose is added several hours earlier, then insulin has cleared it and it isn't there anymore... that is why timing is relevant).
So eat carbs at the time you workout. Consume them right before working out, or if that causes stomach issues for you, then immediately afterwards.0 -
You could always drop the protein powder and just drink a glass of low fat mild after every work out. That way you get great muscle recovery and growth and less calories.
That's what my husband has done for years and he is a body builder.0 -
if you get enough protein in your "normal" diet then you don't need a supplement...it's just a supplement to help you hit your targets.0
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midwesterner85 wrote: »sheermomentum wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.
Actually, you are both wrong. There is some truth to what you are saying as well, but the important things are the sources and the destination of blood glucose (BG) in addition to the pathway. The pathway is secondary for purposes of this conversation.
Eat net carbs - BG rises fairly quickly. If protein and/or fat is being digested simultaneously with net carbs, then BG rise will be slowed as compared with eating only carbs.
Both your liver and your muscles store glycogen. Absorption of BG to convert to glycogen is done through a different pathway than what insulin does, which is not as important here... the important thing is that BG is converted to glycogen.
So when you workout and lose glycogen from your muscles, then you need to pull glycogen out of your liver or you need to use BG that has recently been put into the bloodstream (if glucose is added several hours earlier, then insulin has cleared it and it isn't there anymore... that is why timing is relevant).
So eat carbs at the time you workout. Consume them right before working out, or if that causes stomach issues for you, then immediately afterwards.
I'm going to stick with Lyle's explanation: " while protein alone is superior to carbohydrates alone, the combination of the two will have the greatest impact on promoting muscle growth (as well as having other beneficial effects on muscle glycogen, etc)."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-post-workout-nutrition.html/
More general information on pre- and post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/pre-vs-post-workout-nutrition-qa.html/
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You could always drop the protein powder and just drink a glass of low fat mild after every work out. That way you get great muscle recovery and growth and less calories.
That's what my husband has done for years and he is a body builder.
I totally agree with this. Chocolate milk is the poor man's recovery drink. Has easily digestible carbs - protein ratio at near ideal levels of 4:1.
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Protein shakes will hinder the weight loss process if they cause you to no longer be in a deficit. Personally, I like protein shakes so I can hit my protein goal. I usually try to do it, or get as close as possible with whole foods but sometimes that's just not going to happen. You could get a lower calorie protein shake to fit it into your calorie goal? I have a few that vary from 100-130 calories, mixed with unsweetened almond milk would add 30 calories. Sometimes I mix them with water.
Yes.....I buy the 100 calorie Muscle Milk protein powder. With 30 calorie un-sweet almond milk and ice...it's only 130 calories. And tastes pretty darn yummy!0 -
sheermomentum wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »The benefits of meal timing around lifting are so small that it almost certainly wouldn't be worth switching around calories unless the effort and impact on the rest of the day were trivial. If doing so made you hungry earlier or later in the day, for example, it wouldn't be advantageous to do.
THIS! If you want the protein drink, then have it but if you are getting a good amount of protein the rest of the day, then the shake is not going to significantly impact you in any way.lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.
Per Lyle:
"When elevated (and I’d note here that while carbohydrate has the primary effect on raising insulin, protein also raises insulin; as well, the combination of protein and carbohydrate raises insulin more than either alone), insulin pushes nutrients into cells. So insulin stimulates glycogen storage in the liver, it also enhances glycogen storage in skeletal muscle. And while insulin isn’t that critically involved in protein synthesis per se, it does decrease protein breakdown; as discussed in The Protein Book, this is important for maximal increases in muscle mass. So far so good."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-levels-and-fat-loss-qa.html/
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yay It's the most economical protein source with respect to calories/grams of protein. It only has like 5 calories/gram of protein.0
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lindsey1979 wrote: »You could always drop the protein powder and just drink a glass of low fat mild after every work out. That way you get great muscle recovery and growth and less calories.
That's what my husband has done for years and he is a body builder.
I totally agree with this. Chocolate milk is the poor man's recovery drink. Has easily digestible carbs - protein ratio at near ideal levels of 4:1.
Mmmm... chocolate milk....0 -
i want some chocolate milk.....0
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I do use protein powder because as a vegan who lifts but is still eating at a caloric deficit, I find it hard to otherwise hit my protein goal and stay within my allotted calories. Previously, I never had a hard time getting enough protein on a vegan diet, but as people here have mentioned, you need more if you're in a deficit and hoping to preserve LBM.
I'm pretty sure I won't need protein powder (or will use it less often) once I start eating at maintenance again. But it's really just a personal preference.0 -
lindsey1979 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »sheermomentum wrote: »lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.
Actually, you are both wrong. There is some truth to what you are saying as well, but the important things are the sources and the destination of blood glucose (BG) in addition to the pathway. The pathway is secondary for purposes of this conversation.
Eat net carbs - BG rises fairly quickly. If protein and/or fat is being digested simultaneously with net carbs, then BG rise will be slowed as compared with eating only carbs.
Both your liver and your muscles store glycogen. Absorption of BG to convert to glycogen is done through a different pathway than what insulin does, which is not as important here... the important thing is that BG is converted to glycogen.
So when you workout and lose glycogen from your muscles, then you need to pull glycogen out of your liver or you need to use BG that has recently been put into the bloodstream (if glucose is added several hours earlier, then insulin has cleared it and it isn't there anymore... that is why timing is relevant).
So eat carbs at the time you workout. Consume them right before working out, or if that causes stomach issues for you, then immediately afterwards.
I'm going to stick with Lyle's explanation: " while protein alone is superior to carbohydrates alone, the combination of the two will have the greatest impact on promoting muscle growth (as well as having other beneficial effects on muscle glycogen, etc)."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-growth-and-post-workout-nutrition.html/
More general information on pre- and post-workout nutrition:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/pre-vs-post-workout-nutrition-qa.html/
Yes, absolutely! A combination of carbs and protein is better than just one or the other. Additionally, timing of carbs is important. Timing of protein is not important. Still eat both.0 -
lindsey1979 wrote: »sheermomentum wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »The benefits of meal timing around lifting are so small that it almost certainly wouldn't be worth switching around calories unless the effort and impact on the rest of the day were trivial. If doing so made you hungry earlier or later in the day, for example, it wouldn't be advantageous to do.
THIS! If you want the protein drink, then have it but if you are getting a good amount of protein the rest of the day, then the shake is not going to significantly impact you in any way.lindsey1979 wrote: »You will improve your recovery if you eat a good deal of protein AND carbs post workout -- carbs create the insulingenic response to help shuttle nutrients (protein and vitamins and carbs) into cell for muscle building/recovery.
This is not how insulin works. It promotes the uptake of glucose from the bloodstream into cells, and it inhibits the production of glucose by the liver. It is not involved in protein metabolism/synthesis or in metabolic processes involving vitamins.
Per Lyle:
"When elevated (and I’d note here that while carbohydrate has the primary effect on raising insulin, protein also raises insulin; as well, the combination of protein and carbohydrate raises insulin more than either alone), insulin pushes nutrients into cells. So insulin stimulates glycogen storage in the liver, it also enhances glycogen storage in skeletal muscle. And while insulin isn’t that critically involved in protein synthesis per se, it does decrease protein breakdown; as discussed in The Protein Book, this is important for maximal increases in muscle mass. So far so good."
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/insulin-levels-and-fat-loss-qa.html/
Lyle is right, but it doesn't really matter here. At issue is timing. Protein takes a long time to digest (which is why eating it at the beginning of a workout won't help unless you are working out for a long time - 90 min. to 3 hours), which also means it doesn't elevate BG for a long time. Also, not all protein converts to BG (100% of net carbs does).
So while insulin might be assisting with the process to remove BG and create glycogen, you need to have something adding BG before it gets removed. That requires carbs. This is why you need to eat carbs right before / during your workout.0
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