Is running hindering my fat loss?!
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LaurenAOK
Posts: 2,475 Member
Heads up, this is going to be a very lonngggg post. That's because I have a feeling it might end up one of those controversial MFP topics (as it in some ways contradicts CICO), so I think it's best to include as much info/thoughts in the OP as possible. It always sucks when an OP is vague and then by the time they provide more clarifying info it gets buried in the comments. Anyway.
I am training for my first marathon. It's extremely taxing, of course, but I thought it would be so worth it to a) accomplish a marathon and b) lose fat like crazy from all the cardio (I'm usually more of a lifting girl). Part "b" isn't working out so well. In the past several months I have not lost any weight. My weight has consistently hovered between 138-141 - every time I lose a pound and get excited about it, it's back at the next week's weigh in. At first I thought maybe I would see results in measurements, but I have seen very little change there either. I found a progress picture from March and compared it with a pic I took today - they are almost identical. I really thought I must be making progress somewhere, so that made me want to cry.
For numbers' sake, I've lost about .5% body fat in the past two months. I was expecting to lose around 1% a month or more, so something is definitely off.
Where does CICO come in? I have tried every TDEE calculator on the market, and they usually give me a TDEE of around 2500. That's with a conservative estimate of my activity level, too. I also use Fitbit, (Charge HR, which is supposed to be very accurate) which estimates my TDEE to be about 2600. So for the past several months, I have eaten 2100 a day, hoping to lose a little less than a pound per week (I'm really aiming for .5 pounds per week, but I figured I'd give a little extra deficit room for error). I just now today decided to ditch the TDEE method and go back to the MFP + exercise cals method, but that shouldn't make much of a difference in how much I eat most days.
My activity is running, generally steady-state, four days a week (total of around 40 miles/week) and circuit training/strength training two days a week. One rest day a week in which I usually take a long walk. In addition, I live in a big city and my main mode of transportation involves a lot of walking every day. My average daily steps are 20,000.
I am very diligent in my logging (more on that below). In addition, I have used MFP before, a couple of times. Both times previously I had NO issues with losing weight. CICO worked just as it should! I do not eat a bunch of different foods now than I did then, and I did not suddenly forget how calorie counting or logging works. There are only two differences between me using MFP this time and the previous times:
1. Previously, I never used a food scale. Now, I do. That should only make my logging more accurate, so it shouldn't be the source of the trouble.
2. This time I am training for a marathon.
So needless to say, I have been stumped... until I came across this article yesterday:
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/women-running-into-trouble
The article is basically saying how chronic steady-state cardio, especially in women, can cause a drastic reduction in the T3 hormone, which leads to a reduction in metabolism and over time can cause hypothyroidism. The article cites a total of 80 studies to back its claims, which at a glance appear to be legit studies in peer-reviewed journals. The article also includes an anecdotal element - the author talks about his friend, "Jessica", who after years of running on the treadmill day in and day out, is still fat. "Jessica" eventually went for a thyroid test and found she had developed hypothyroidism, which she did not have prior to all the running. When the author suggested she cut the cardio, she did so, and two weeks later her thyroid numbers were back to normal.
Here's what I think to be the most relevant quote from the article, which again cites studies to back up what its saying, though I have not looked at the studies individually:
"Studies demonstrate beyond any doubt that in women, cardio chronically shuts down the production of the thyroid hormone, T3. T3 is the body’s preeminent regulator of metabolism by throttling the efficiency of cells. T3 acts in various ways to increase heat production.... this is one reason using static equations to perform calorie-in, calorie-out weight loss calculations doesn’t work—well, that’s why it’s stupid, actually. When T3 levels are normal, the body burns enough energy to stay warm and muscles function at moderate efficiency.... Too little T3 (hypothyroidism) and the body accumulates body fat with ease, almost regardless of physical activity level. Women unknowingly put themselves into the hypothyroid condition because they perform so much steady-state cardio."
Again, I would usually completely disregard stuff like this because I used to think CICO rules all. But this is the ONLY explanation I have found that makes sense to me for why I have not seen fat loss in months despite doing cardio like crazy and using MFP as accurately as possible. I have not been tested for hypothyroid in several years, but my last test results were normal. I'm not even sure if I think I'm at the level of hypothyroid yet, but I do believe it is possible, after reading this article, that my hormones may have been affected in some way and my metabolism may have slowed. I don't know if that's complete bogus, though.
Because I know in threads like this people always want to look at the OP's diary, mine is open. I just want to note a few things about it up front:
1. Yes, I weigh everything I eat at home. Even a slice of bread, I don't just log "1 slice", I weigh it first to make sure it's accurate with the serving size. If it weighs less than it should, I still log it as a whole serving - I only change the serving input if it weighs more than it should.
2. When I do have to estimate, I estimate high.
3. I am a busy working student so I usually eat out about once a day. And it's not always the healthiest food. I'm on a budget - taco bell happens. Otherwise, I try to make good food choices.
4. I follow IIFYM, and I'm usually pretty spot-on with my calorie and macro goals. If I ever go over my cal goal, I make up for it the rest of the week.
5. Again, calorie counting is not new to me. I've had success in the past, and I really haven't changed anything this time.
So the point of this horrendously long post is that I'm fed up with seeing no progress and I'm desperate for answers. I've got events to attend, yo - events that I thought I would be in awesome shape for by now. If I have to go another month with no change in weight or measurements I might scream.
I'm hoping someone out there who is more knowledgeable about science and weight loss than I could give some clarity regarding a) if there is any merit to the possibility that too much running is stalling my fat loss; b) if there is some other explanation for why I'm not seeing progress); or c) if I'm just kidding myself and I've obviously messed up CICO somewhere.
Stats: 24 y/o Female, 5'4", ~140lbs, ~22.5% body fat
TDEE: 2500-2600 (by all calculations)
Intake: 2100 (by all calculations)
Been marathon training for about 6 months.
Thanks for reading
I am training for my first marathon. It's extremely taxing, of course, but I thought it would be so worth it to a) accomplish a marathon and b) lose fat like crazy from all the cardio (I'm usually more of a lifting girl). Part "b" isn't working out so well. In the past several months I have not lost any weight. My weight has consistently hovered between 138-141 - every time I lose a pound and get excited about it, it's back at the next week's weigh in. At first I thought maybe I would see results in measurements, but I have seen very little change there either. I found a progress picture from March and compared it with a pic I took today - they are almost identical. I really thought I must be making progress somewhere, so that made me want to cry.
For numbers' sake, I've lost about .5% body fat in the past two months. I was expecting to lose around 1% a month or more, so something is definitely off.
Where does CICO come in? I have tried every TDEE calculator on the market, and they usually give me a TDEE of around 2500. That's with a conservative estimate of my activity level, too. I also use Fitbit, (Charge HR, which is supposed to be very accurate) which estimates my TDEE to be about 2600. So for the past several months, I have eaten 2100 a day, hoping to lose a little less than a pound per week (I'm really aiming for .5 pounds per week, but I figured I'd give a little extra deficit room for error). I just now today decided to ditch the TDEE method and go back to the MFP + exercise cals method, but that shouldn't make much of a difference in how much I eat most days.
My activity is running, generally steady-state, four days a week (total of around 40 miles/week) and circuit training/strength training two days a week. One rest day a week in which I usually take a long walk. In addition, I live in a big city and my main mode of transportation involves a lot of walking every day. My average daily steps are 20,000.
I am very diligent in my logging (more on that below). In addition, I have used MFP before, a couple of times. Both times previously I had NO issues with losing weight. CICO worked just as it should! I do not eat a bunch of different foods now than I did then, and I did not suddenly forget how calorie counting or logging works. There are only two differences between me using MFP this time and the previous times:
1. Previously, I never used a food scale. Now, I do. That should only make my logging more accurate, so it shouldn't be the source of the trouble.
2. This time I am training for a marathon.
So needless to say, I have been stumped... until I came across this article yesterday:
http://www.elitefts.com/education/training/women-running-into-trouble
The article is basically saying how chronic steady-state cardio, especially in women, can cause a drastic reduction in the T3 hormone, which leads to a reduction in metabolism and over time can cause hypothyroidism. The article cites a total of 80 studies to back its claims, which at a glance appear to be legit studies in peer-reviewed journals. The article also includes an anecdotal element - the author talks about his friend, "Jessica", who after years of running on the treadmill day in and day out, is still fat. "Jessica" eventually went for a thyroid test and found she had developed hypothyroidism, which she did not have prior to all the running. When the author suggested she cut the cardio, she did so, and two weeks later her thyroid numbers were back to normal.
Here's what I think to be the most relevant quote from the article, which again cites studies to back up what its saying, though I have not looked at the studies individually:
"Studies demonstrate beyond any doubt that in women, cardio chronically shuts down the production of the thyroid hormone, T3. T3 is the body’s preeminent regulator of metabolism by throttling the efficiency of cells. T3 acts in various ways to increase heat production.... this is one reason using static equations to perform calorie-in, calorie-out weight loss calculations doesn’t work—well, that’s why it’s stupid, actually. When T3 levels are normal, the body burns enough energy to stay warm and muscles function at moderate efficiency.... Too little T3 (hypothyroidism) and the body accumulates body fat with ease, almost regardless of physical activity level. Women unknowingly put themselves into the hypothyroid condition because they perform so much steady-state cardio."
Again, I would usually completely disregard stuff like this because I used to think CICO rules all. But this is the ONLY explanation I have found that makes sense to me for why I have not seen fat loss in months despite doing cardio like crazy and using MFP as accurately as possible. I have not been tested for hypothyroid in several years, but my last test results were normal. I'm not even sure if I think I'm at the level of hypothyroid yet, but I do believe it is possible, after reading this article, that my hormones may have been affected in some way and my metabolism may have slowed. I don't know if that's complete bogus, though.
Because I know in threads like this people always want to look at the OP's diary, mine is open. I just want to note a few things about it up front:
1. Yes, I weigh everything I eat at home. Even a slice of bread, I don't just log "1 slice", I weigh it first to make sure it's accurate with the serving size. If it weighs less than it should, I still log it as a whole serving - I only change the serving input if it weighs more than it should.
2. When I do have to estimate, I estimate high.
3. I am a busy working student so I usually eat out about once a day. And it's not always the healthiest food. I'm on a budget - taco bell happens. Otherwise, I try to make good food choices.
4. I follow IIFYM, and I'm usually pretty spot-on with my calorie and macro goals. If I ever go over my cal goal, I make up for it the rest of the week.
5. Again, calorie counting is not new to me. I've had success in the past, and I really haven't changed anything this time.
So the point of this horrendously long post is that I'm fed up with seeing no progress and I'm desperate for answers. I've got events to attend, yo - events that I thought I would be in awesome shape for by now. If I have to go another month with no change in weight or measurements I might scream.
I'm hoping someone out there who is more knowledgeable about science and weight loss than I could give some clarity regarding a) if there is any merit to the possibility that too much running is stalling my fat loss; b) if there is some other explanation for why I'm not seeing progress); or c) if I'm just kidding myself and I've obviously messed up CICO somewhere.
Stats: 24 y/o Female, 5'4", ~140lbs, ~22.5% body fat
TDEE: 2500-2600 (by all calculations)
Intake: 2100 (by all calculations)
Been marathon training for about 6 months.
Thanks for reading
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Replies
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Well, I'd think it would happen more often if it was really the case. I do an hour of cardio every day (walking at an incline, not running) and my TDEE hasn't moved a bit in a year, and I've maintained my weight just fine.
My guess is that you're underestimating your 'eating out' calories, you might be retaining more water because of all that running, or you have a thyroid issue and overestimating your TDEE.
That being said, I do think that there is such thing as too much cardio.0 -
Well, I'd think it would happen more often if it was really the case. I do an hour of cardio every day (walking at an incline, not running) and my TDEE hasn't moved a bit in a year, and I've maintained my weight just fine.
My guess is that you're underestimating your 'eating out' calories, you might be retaining more water because of all that running, or you have a thyroid issue and overestimating your TDEE.
That being said, I do think that there is such thing as too much cardio.
What is too much cardio?
OP - how are you performing? How close to race are you? Can you try cutting calories by a little bit and seeing how that works?0 -
most likely you are underestimating your intake. training vs working out is pretty rigorous...I usually put on a couple of pounds when I'm actively training for a bike race simply for the fact that I need to eat a certain amount just for proper recovery. I've never lost weight while actively training...it's very difficult to keep calories in check when you're working at that level of effort.
i personally think you're eating a bit more than you think...enough to maintain...500 calories is pretty easy to underestimate.0 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »Well, I'd think it would happen more often if it was really the case. I do an hour of cardio every day (walking at an incline, not running) and my TDEE hasn't moved a bit in a year, and I've maintained my weight just fine.
My guess is that you're underestimating your 'eating out' calories, you might be retaining more water because of all that running, or you have a thyroid issue and overestimating your TDEE.
That being said, I do think that there is such thing as too much cardio.
What is too much cardio?
OP - how are you performing? How close to race are you? Can you try cutting calories by a little bit and seeing how that works?
6 weeks from race. And that was another thing I meant to mention - just recently, like past week or so, my energy on runs has really been lacking compared to normal. That leads me to think that if anything my body needs more, not less - yet another reason I'm confused.
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My guess is that you're underestimating your 'eating out' calories, you might be retaining more water because of all that running, or you have a thyroid issue and overestimating your TDEE.
That being said, I do think that there is such thing as too much cardio.
Right, I have definitely thought the eating out could have an impact - posted calorie counts aren't always accurate. It's still weird to me, though, that my eating habits have always been like this, and it hasn't seemed to be a problem with past calorie counting.
Sadly I don't think retaining more water can account for months of no loss
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Maybe I'm being one of those OPs who is just willfully ignorant to their own failures, but I just find it hard to believe that I have been consistently overestimating my cals, on a daily basis, by 500 or more for months on end. It is true that I eat out frequently especially in the past month since school started. But there were also plenty of times when I did not eat out so much - over the summer I packed my lunch for work almost every day, for example. And most weeks I came in under my goal - averaging about 2000 per day rather than my planned 2100.
I agree that there is lots of evidence that cardio does not hurt fat loss - plenty of marathon runners are twigs! But I also think it's not that uncommon to see runners who are overweight. That could definitely be a simple CICO thing, but this article has me wondering if I there's more to it for some people.0 -
@LaurenAOK I cant help with your question, but I just wanted to say that I would kill to have your stomach!
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Maybe I'm being one of those OPs who is just willfully ignorant to their own failures, but I just find it hard to believe that I have been consistently overestimating my cals, on a daily basis, by 500 or more for months on end. It is true that I eat out frequently especially in the past month since school started. But there were also plenty of times when I did not eat out so much - over the summer I packed my lunch for work almost every day, for example. And most weeks I came in under my goal - averaging about 2000 per day rather than my planned 2100.
I agree that there is lots of evidence that cardio does not hurt fat loss - plenty of marathon runners are twigs! But I also think it's not that uncommon to see runners who are overweight. That could definitely be a simple CICO thing, but this article has me wondering if I there's more to it for some people.
You are right, it is not uncommon to see overweight runners. But I think there are other factors at play. Not everyone is diligent at tracking food intake. I, myself, have fallen prey to the "I just did xx miles, I can eat what I want". When I started tracking I was amazed at how quickly I ate away that deficit. Plus, as someone else mentioned, this type of training often triggers appetite so people who aren't diligently tracking can easily maintain or gain during a rigorous training plan.
I don't disagree with the article in that I don't agree with endless cardio just to lose weight. But I'm not sold on the idea that it stops weight loss or actually makes people gain weight for the reasons listed. I'm waiting for someone else to chime in with some science to back it up though.
I would have suggested cutting calories a bit to see how it went but with 6 weeks to go, that probably isn't the ideal time to start doing that. Especially if you struggled with some runs.0 -
If you think this may be happening to you, it seems like the best way to know for sure is to go get your thyroid checked. If your thyroid is fine, something else is going on. If you have hypothyroidism, then you can either stop training for a few weeks and retest, or get on some meds to get balanced out.
Try to keep in mind correlation is not the same as causation. Even if you find out you have hypothyroidism since you started training, does not nec. mean the training caused it.0 -
This response boils down to personal experience/gut feelings on the issue, so of course I'm open to smarter cookies validating or correcting, but:
I personally feel that if you're training for a marathon/long distance running, that requires so much cardio, you should decide between the training and the dieting. I ended up feeling like garbage trying to do both and it hurt my training big time. Once I ate closer to maintenance I felt better, but it still affected my overall performance in the end.0 -
As for the article ... it seems that it was written by the same guy that hypes the "Carb Nite Solution" to strip fat ... motivation behind the logic used in the article.
Quite simply, even if one is hypothyroid ... it still comes down to CICO with the thyroid issue impacting the calories out side of the formula.0 -
I cannot really help, but I have several people in my friends list here who did marathons. Every one of them would usually lose no problem, but when training, they maintained or gained a few pounds. As I recall, most if not all of them lost again after the race, and the pre-race training, were finished.0
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If you're worried about your thyroid numbers, get a blood test. I used healthlab.com about 8 weeks ago to test my blood for T3 (mine tends to be too high). It costs $40. I bought the test online on a Friday, had my blood drawn about an hour later, and had my results emailed to me on Sunday. The whole process couldn't have been easier. If you're worried about your thyroid, it's $40 well-spent, imo. And, you don't need to use healthlab. There are many similar sites. Look for one that has a blood drawing center near you.0
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I've run 2 full marathons and 5 half marathons and gained weight training for each race. My hashimotos thyroid was fine and properly medicated each race and closely monitored. Part of the gain was the stress inflammation/water retention and the other part was my own overeating. I was so hungry after long runs I couldn't catch it. Fortunately the water weight came off after each race. And after each race when I trained less, I wasn't nearly as hungry so I ate less and lost weight.0
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This does not negate CICO. If true, it means that your calories out has been reduced below the average. MFP and Fitbit use a formula to calculate CO for the average person of your height, weight, age and sex. If you aren't average, the formula isn't accurate for you. You have found a possible explanation for why the formula isn't accurate for you, but it doesn't change that if you are not losing weight, you are eating as much as you burn. CICO.0
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rileysowner wrote: »I cannot really help, but I have several people in my friends list here who did marathons. Every one of them would usually lose no problem, but when training, they maintained or gained a few pounds. As I recall, most if not all of them lost again after the race, and the pre-race training, were finished.
See, this is what is so interesting to me. Of course it's possible that, like some posters on here have said, they were simply overeating to compensate for all the extra activity. But if they were using MFP before, during, and post-training, it's not like they knew how to log correctly before training but not during! It just doesn't make sense to me that weight loss would stall during training from a purely CICO perspective.3dogsrunning wrote: »I would have suggested cutting calories a bit to see how it went but with 6 weeks to go, that probably isn't the ideal time to start doing that. Especially if you struggled with some runs.
I think you're right, I would love to decrease cals for experimental purposes but I don't think it's a good idea right now. I guess I will have to deal with being stalled at least until the race, then I can play around with cals and see what happens. Just sucks because I was hoping to be down to around 18-20% body fat by now. I'm going to comic con next month as Princess Jasmine and I wanted my stomach to look awesome
cwolfman13 wrote: »most likely you are underestimating your intake. training vs working out is pretty rigorous...I usually put on a couple of pounds when I'm actively training for a bike race simply for the fact that I need to eat a certain amount just for proper recovery. I've never lost weight while actively training...it's very difficult to keep calories in check when you're working at that level of effort.
i personally think you're eating a bit more than you think...enough to maintain...500 calories is pretty easy to underestimate.
^^^^This.
It's pretty typical for people to either maintain or gain when training for a marathon. The training is grueling and your body tends to crave the foods especially after the long runs. Your body needs the food for the recovery that needs to happen in order to keep up the pace that you need to as part of the training.
I tend to give the advice to people who are training for a long race to focus on the race and then when it is all said and done, focus on weight loss. I've never done a marathon mainly because I don't want to commit to that level of training, but if I did....my goal would not be to lose weight at the same time.
I definitely get what you are saying and I think it's great advice not to focus on weight loss while training for something so big - I should have thought of that before! What just doesn't make sense to me is that, it shouldn't matter how much I crave extra food to compensate for the training - as long as I'm logging accurately and keeping my cals in check, by most people's account I should be losing weight. It's not like I'm seeing 150g of food on the food scale and going "well I ran a lot today, so I'll just log it as 100g." (Not saying that's what you're implying - just giving an example of how this is confusing to me). Literally the only food I don't weigh is when I eat out, which is generally once a day or less, and I find it really hard to believe that those cals are overestimated THAT much... I usually get a meal of around 600 calories, so it would have to be DOUBLE what I think it is in order for it to put me far enough over my calorie goal to ruin my deficit. And, I know I keep saying this, but I have always worked frequent restaurant meals into my calorie intake and it has never ruined my goals in the past.
By the way - I really appreciate all the replies here. You all have been super helpful and I don't want it to come off like I'm ignoring what you're saying or being argumentative. I think my mind is just kind of blown by seeing no progress after so much hard work.
Oh - and I would love to get my thyroid checked, but a doctor's visit/bloodwork is not in my budget right now, even for $40. I have to be extra careful with spending over the next couple of months, so the earliest I could get tested would be after the marathon.
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My weight loss slowed when I started running. I think a lot of it is water retention.0
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I've run 2 full marathons and 5 half marathons and gained weight training for each race. My hashimotos thyroid was fine and properly medicated each race and closely monitored. Part of the gain was the stress inflammation/water retention and the other part was my own overeating. I was so hungry after long runs I couldn't catch it. Fortunately the water weight came off after each race. And after each race when I trained less, I wasn't nearly as hungry so I ate less and lost weight.
Really interesting!! I was discounting inflammation/water weight as being a huge factor - I thought it could account for maybe a pound or so, but not more. But it sounds like for you it made a pretty big difference. I wonder if that's part of what is happening here.This does not negate CICO. If true, it means that your calories out has been reduced below the average. MFP and Fitbit use a formula to calculate CO for the average person of your height, weight, age and sex. If you aren't average, the formula isn't accurate for you. You have found a possible explanation for why the formula isn't accurate for you, but it doesn't change that if you are not losing weight, you are eating as much as you burn. CICO.
That's a really good way of putting it, and you're absolutely right. I guess I shouldn't have implied that I was contradicting CICO - the better question is whether running is actually decreasing my metabolism, thus accounting for CICO errors.0
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