Juggernaut vs 5/3/1

jacksonpt

Background:
I consider myself an intermediate lifter – certainly not new to lifting, but not advanced, either. The monkey wrench in this conversation is that I am a triathlete during the summer and a lifter during the winter – I only lift seriously when my race season is over, typically something like Oct/Nov – Apr/May. When I first started lifting seriously, I did 5x5 for a couple of off-seasons, and have been doing 5/3/1 for the past 3 off-seasons (original 5/3/1, not Beyond). My primary goal is to get stronger, but vanity has its place, too.

There are a lot of things I like about 5/3/1, and I’d be happy to stick with it if that’s the consensus recommendation… but the idea that Juggernaut is meant to compliment sport-specific training is pretty appealing. I also like that progression from one cycle to the next is based on how you do in the current cycle, whereas 5/3/1 is a flat increase each cycle which I’ve struggled with in the past on certain lifts. My only real complaint with 5/3/1 is that my cardio workouts end up being more about recovering from the previous day's lifting, rather than actual training. That's not a big deal if it only happens on occasion, but can be a problem if it's consistent.

My biggest question is this: given that I only lift seriously for 7ish months, I’d only get in 2 cycles with Juggernaut, vs 7 cycles of 5/3/1. If Juggernaut is as advertised, I could theoretically keep the program going throughout race season, but I don’t really see that happening.


Ultimately, I’ll probably have to try Juggernaut and see how it goes… but I thought it might make for some good conversation.


For those of you not familiar with Juggernaut, here is the gist (this is 1 cycle) -

Sam_I_Am77

Hey Jackson,

Don't get too caught-up with "sports-specific"; Wendler is also a former D1 football player and currently trains athletes, so his principles are very much supportive of athletes. I've mentioned it before, you need to dive into the Beyond book a little, it's not as complicated as it all sounds. If you can make sense of the different phase of Juggernaut, you can figure out Beyond too. There's definitely nothing wrong with Juggernaut and CWS is definitely a very experienced and intelligent individual; basically you need to figure out what you enjoy doing the most. It sounds like your mind is kind of set, so just hit Juggernaut hard during your off-season and see how it goes. Then you'll know where you stand once you do it.

jacksonpt

I started re-reading Beyond last night... hoping to get through it fairly quickly as I work back into some more regular lifting.

Sam_I_Am77

jacksonpt wrote: »

I started re-reading Beyond last night... hoping to get through it fairly quickly as I work back into some more regular lifting.

Because CWS and JW share similar experience the methods are all very similar. If you look at the Accumulation phase, that's very similar to First Set Last (from Beyond) and the first three Realization phases are more or less 5/3/1 with the last phase close to being the actual "Beyond" program. It looks like CWS may have packaged a little easier to read, so I can see where you're coming from with that.

jacksonpt

FWIW... I've reread both the Juggernaut and the Beyond 5/3/1 books.

My plan for this off-season is to stick with 5/3/1 and start incorporating pyramid and joker sets. I'm thinking 2 cycles pyramid, 1 cycle jokers, deload, rinse and repeat... but we'll see how things go.

Sam_I_Am77

jacksonpt wrote: »

FWIW... I've reread both the Juggernaut and the Beyond 5/3/1 books.

My plan for this off-season is to stick with 5/3/1 and start incorporating pyramid and joker sets. I'm thinking 2 cycles pyramid, 1 cycle jokers, deload, rinse and repeat... but we'll see how things go.

There are a lot of ways to work the system nowadays with 5/3/1; you should see some of the stuff Jim has on his membership site now.

Remember that Joker Sets are an add-on that you really only do when you're feeling really good; they can beat you up a little especially after a couple cycles into it. Also, they tend to work very well with the 5's Progression model as well, so it's something to consider too.

You could do something like,

- Squat
5/3/1 or 5's Progression work-sets
Jokers if you're feeling good
First Set Last as 3-5 sets of 5-8 reps *don't do FSL if you're doing Pyramid, one or the other*

- Accessory

piperdown44

I use blackironbeast.com to calculate out my 531 program. It's not a set increase each month. Your next cycle can be based using a couple different inputs. I use how many reps I did on the 1+ set, although I've discovered that if you don't hit at least 6 reps on the 1+ it keeps you at the previous cycle weights for that specific lift. So, it wasn't a fixed number but more a calculation on 1rm max and then a % based on that. I've shot up over 20lbs on OHP before or as little at 5lbs based on the 1+ reps.

It also calculates out the BBB, pyramid, joker and a boatload of other variations.
I plug the numbers in and print it off to take to the gym.

jmule24

piperdown44 wrote: »

I use blackironbeast.com to calculate out my 531 program. It's not a set increase each month. Your next cycle can be based using a couple different inputs. I use how many reps I did on the 1+ set, although I've discovered that if you don't hit at least 6 reps on the 1+ it keeps you at the previous cycle weights for that specific lift. So, it wasn't a fixed number but more a calculation on 1rm max and then a % based on that. I've shot up over 20lbs on OHP before or as little at 5lbs based on the 1+ reps.

It also calculates out the BBB, pyramid, joker and a boatload of other variations.
I plug the numbers in and print it off to take to the gym.

Big Lifts 2 for Apple is a GREAT APP for doing all the 5/3/1 work for you. Adding joker sets, changing accessory work, tracking progress, deload, progression, etc..... I think it cost $1.99. WELL WORTH THE COST!

jacksonpt

jmule24 wrote: »

piperdown44 wrote: »

I use blackironbeast.com to calculate out my 531 program. It's not a set increase each month. Your next cycle can be based using a couple different inputs. I use how many reps I did on the 1+ set, although I've discovered that if you don't hit at least 6 reps on the 1+ it keeps you at the previous cycle weights for that specific lift. So, it wasn't a fixed number but more a calculation on 1rm max and then a % based on that. I've shot up over 20lbs on OHP before or as little at 5lbs based on the 1+ reps.

It also calculates out the BBB, pyramid, joker and a boatload of other variations.
I plug the numbers in and print it off to take to the gym.

Big Lifts 2 for Apple is a GREAT APP for doing all the 5/3/1 work for you. Adding joker sets, changing accessory work, tracking progress, deload, progression, etc..... I think it cost $1.99. WELL WORTH THE COST!

Just DLed it for android, looks pretty solid - thanks for the suggestion.

Sam_I_Am77

jmule24 wrote: »

piperdown44 wrote: »

I use blackironbeast.com to calculate out my 531 program. It's not a set increase each month. Your next cycle can be based using a couple different inputs. I use how many reps I did on the 1+ set, although I've discovered that if you don't hit at least 6 reps on the 1+ it keeps you at the previous cycle weights for that specific lift. So, it wasn't a fixed number but more a calculation on 1rm max and then a % based on that. I've shot up over 20lbs on OHP before or as little at 5lbs based on the 1+ reps.

It also calculates out the BBB, pyramid, joker and a boatload of other variations.
I plug the numbers in and print it off to take to the gym.

Big Lifts 2 for Apple is a GREAT APP for doing all the 5/3/1 work for you. Adding joker sets, changing accessory work, tracking progress, deload, progression, etc..... I think it cost $1.99. WELL WORTH THE COST!

That kind of sucks, I bet Jim doesn't get any kick-back from the developer yet he's got an app based on another man's work.