Bigorexia - what is muscle dysmorphia?
msf74
Posts: 3,498 Member
So, are men now susceptible to the same pressure to look a certain way as women? Is this a thing?
From here: Bigorexia
One in 10 men training in UK gyms could have a little-known body-image disorder called “bigorexia”, which can lead to depression, steroid abuse and suicide.
What is bigorexia?
The disorder is formally known as muscle dysmorphia, an anxiety disorder which causes someone to see themselves as small, despite actually being big and muscular.
It is sometimes described as the opposite of anorexia.
"Muscle dysmorphia is a preoccupation with the idea that one isn't big enough, isn't muscular enough," Rob Wilson, chair of the Body Dysmorphic Disorder Foundation said in a BBC Newsbeat investigation.
Signs of bigorexia may include working out compulsively, often prioritising working out over family and friends, excessively looking at your body in the mirror and abusing anabolic steroids, supplements and protein shakes.
How many are affected?
“We know about 10 per cent of men in the gym may have muscle dysmorphia,” said Mr Wilson.
He went on to say that many cases may be going undiagnosed because there is little awareness of the disorder.
"There are thousands upon thousands with it, who are going to be excessively concerned about their appearance, having very poor self-esteem, and also feeling very anxious and very worried," he said.
"Sometimes individuals can become very depressed and hopeless and that can even lead to suicide."
What causes the disorder?
The NHS says bigorexia could be a genetic disorder, or may be caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Life experiences may also be a factor, as the NHS suggests bigorexia may be more common in people who were teased, bullied or abused when they were young.
Mr Wilson said the disorder may have become more common as men are conditioned to think they need to look a certain way to feel successful, powerful and attractive.
"We're seeing an increased pressure on men to look muscular, create a 'V' shape and have a six pack.”
Several treatments are available, including cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) or a type of medication called a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI). If symptoms do not improve, antidepressants such as clomipramine can be prescribed.
For information or advice, contact mental health charity Mind on 0300 123 3393 or email info@mind.org.uk.
From here: Bigorexia
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Replies
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The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?0
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
I agree. So many ways to misinterpret the term Bigorexia, too.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I definitely feel that men can have the same body image issues that women struggle with.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I definitely feel that men can have the same body image issues that women struggle with.
Yes, me too.
I don't really want to distract from the awful pressure on women to conform to what can be ridiculous and largely unattainable stereotypes but I think a discussion of the pressure that men face as well needs to be had.0 -
I never heard of this until reading this.0
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Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
And the question is who does that nitpicking actually benefit? The greater population certainly doesn't benefit from such pressure.
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
And the question is who does that nitpicking actually benefit? The greater population certainly doesn't benefit from such pressure.
The diet and fitness industry make a fortune, I'm sure. Not saying they ring up the local trash mag and say, "Please go attack some famous men for not being as fit at 40 as they were at 20, our numbers are down and we want more money", that's just how it is. And people buy those magazines and look at those pictures, so yeah. Most societies are pretty screwed up I guess.
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Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
Interesting perspective but on what are you basing your comments about they don't actually see themselves as "small" in their perception? Is it based on research you have come across or anecdotal experience
I'm not saying you are wrong but thinking back across many years in various weight rooms I can think of at least a couple of conversations I have had where guys have alluded to the fact not that they felt small but they were small even when they were far more muscular than me. I dismissed it at the time.
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
And the question is who does that nitpicking actually benefit? The greater population certainly doesn't benefit from such pressure.
The diet and fitness industry make a fortune, I'm sure. Not saying they ring up the local trash mag and say, "Please go attack some famous men for not being as fit at 40 as they were at 20, our numbers are down and we want more money", that's just how it is. And people buy those magazines and look at those pictures, so yeah. Most societies are pretty screwed up I guess.
This, exactly. The celebrities being nitpicked may feel bad, but the people really being targetted by that are the readers. Either they will a) feel better about themselves for not looking "like that" or b) see a body that's similar or nearly identical to their own being displayed to them as "bad," "ugly" or otherwise somehow wrong.
The weight loss industry benefits, people lose. It sucks.0 -
This is probably behind a lot of the steroid use going on. Everyone seems to want to be the Incredible Hulk.0
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Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
And the question is who does that nitpicking actually benefit? The greater population certainly doesn't benefit from such pressure.
The diet and fitness industry make a fortune, I'm sure. Not saying they ring up the local trash mag and say, "Please go attack some famous men for not being as fit at 40 as they were at 20, our numbers are down and we want more money", that's just how it is. And people buy those magazines and look at those pictures, so yeah. Most societies are pretty screwed up I guess.
So why don't we tell the people who would sell us a lie of what is realistically achievable to sling their hook?
As you say these industries are very profitable and that must be because people demand it and that demand is huge. Are we just masochists who want to be punished for not feeling good enough?0 -
I've talked about the muscle issue with exactly two people who had it, but I've spent more hours than I could count with anorexics.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
Interesting perspective but on what are you basing your comments about they don't actually see themselves as "small" in their perception? Is it based on research you have come across or anecdotal experience
I'm not saying you are wrong but thinking back across many years in various weight rooms I can think of at least a couple of conversations I have had where guys have alluded to the fact not that they felt small but they were small even when they were far more muscular than me. I dismissed it at the time.
Both the muscle guys I talked to in depth were former addicts. They had quit the drugs/alcohol, but channeled that addictive personality into weight lifting. I had an argument - not a heated emotional, volatile argument, but a disagreement - with a psychiatrist about whether we should be discouraging it, lol. If someone has that personality, I am of the opinion that the weight lifting is better than the drugs, so remind them not to start taking drugs, as so many with muscle dysmorphia do, and leave it be. The other guy was of the opinion that both were bad and should be discouraged. He was young and had higher hopes than I do, thinking everyone can be totally fixed. Maybe his idealism is the better outlook than my more jaded one. He could be right.
The textbooks are full of that picture of the anorexic who sees an obese person in the mirror. Never have I met a single anorexic who didn't know that Yeah, she was thin. Former anorexics will say that they didn't really realize how bad and sickly they looked, because they were so focused on the 2 ounces of fat, but none thought they were overweight.
They aren't delusional, they're obsessed.
It's all just something to focus on. They focus on losing weight or gaining muscle because there is other stuff they aren't dealing with or part of their personality needs to obsess.
The anorexics have the additional problem of having a brain that isn't being fueled properly and cannot think clearly, so it's a struggle.
Nobody spends much time on the muscle dysmorphia because it's more accepted and death isn't imminent. And the insurance companies aren't going to pay for that! Plus, if you succeed in getting the person to cease the body obsession, what comes next? Booze? Drugs? What? I'm not the only one who thinks, "Leave bad enough alone. Don't make them worse."0 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The best name they could come up with was "bigorexia"?
I guess it is a more accessible term than muscle dysmorphia.
I'd be more inclined to take someone with muscle dysmorphia seriously, as I know body dysmorphia is a real psychological disorder.
If someone told me they had been diagnosed with "bigorexia," and I had not read this article, I probably wouldn't take them seriously at all.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from in that it may cause the condition to not be taken seriously (if indeed it is a condition - it has only just come to my attention so wanted to know what others thought.)
I think it is a condition and should be taken very seriously. Not surprising if more men are starting to suffer from it. The media has started to nitpick males as well as females. I've seen a few unflattering photos of older male stars wandering around with six pack of beer guts in some of the trash magazines.
And the question is who does that nitpicking actually benefit? The greater population certainly doesn't benefit from such pressure.
The diet and fitness industry make a fortune, I'm sure. Not saying they ring up the local trash mag and say, "Please go attack some famous men for not being as fit at 40 as they were at 20, our numbers are down and we want more money", that's just how it is. And people buy those magazines and look at those pictures, so yeah. Most societies are pretty screwed up I guess.
So why don't we tell the people who would sell us a lie of what is realistically achievable to sling their hook?
As you say these industries are very profitable and that must be because people demand it and that demand is huge. Are we just masochists who want to be punished for not feeling good enough?
Same reason we tolerate a lot of nonsense. We grew up with it. While many men did not (boys are now, though!) they still grew up with the ideal woman mindset, so it probably isn't that hard to translate it to themselves.
We need a child friendly society. But that would require a sane society. We don't have that. Not in my country.
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I remember being in high school psychology class and watching a documentary about a person who had muscle dysmorphia to the extent that he would not leave the house without first doing at least some light working out to get a pump going. He also had worked out so hard and so much that his body constantly ached, but he still felt mentally unable to do anything about it.
Then, simply because I recognized the brand of protein powder he used, the teacher gave me concerned looks and asked some mental health questions of me.
I'd also say there is a slight, fundamental difference in bigorexia in men and anorexia in women (not that either issue can't have happen in the other gender) in that bigorexia in men has a lot more to do with wanting to meet the ideal of men as envisioned by other men. To be big like that is to be strong and powerful and as such is a masculine fantasy.0 -
They literally do see themselves incorrectly and deny how they look. I've seen people do confrontations exercises with anorexics in group sessions where they make an outline of the person with pencils on paper to show the person how small their outline is. The girl on there was arguing and insisting the people tracing her were purposely pushing the pencils in past her actual outline. She was outright denying that her body was the size it was.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.0 -
So, are men now susceptible to the same pressure to look a certain way as women? Is this a thing?
"We're seeing an increased pressure on men to look muscular, create a 'V' shape and have a six pack.”
I definitely know this is a thing, but I'm also absolutely certain this is not limited to men. In a personal training session, my trainer went through her phone and picked out several images of extremely lean and muscular women. She was attempting to show me the extremes a woman has to go through to get her body to look like they look. They were all personal friends of hers and they were all professional fitness models.
The routines of all those women border on Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at the very least. Gym every day for hours and hours - no skipping, unless they're on their deathbeds. Meals that have been precisely planned. Absolutely no time for family (because that either presents a meal they can't eat or time away from working out), and any time with friends has to be centered around exercise of some form. And yes, steroids are a thing, even for fitness models.
A couple of her friends quit and "went soft" (i.e. 10% body fat, the horror), just because they wanted to do more in life than focus on their bodies 24/7.0 -
ManiacalLaugh wrote: »So, are men now susceptible to the same pressure to look a certain way as women? Is this a thing?
"We're seeing an increased pressure on men to look muscular, create a 'V' shape and have a six pack.”
I definitely know this is a thing, but I'm also absolutely certain this is not limited to men. In a personal training session, my trainer went through her phone and picked out several images of extremely lean and muscular women. She was attempting to show me the extremes a woman has to go through to get her body to look like they look. They were all personal friends of hers and they were all professional fitness models.
The routines of all those women border on Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at the very least. Gym every day for hours and hours - no skipping, unless they're on their deathbeds. Meals that have been precisely planned. Absolutely no time for family (because that either presents a meal they can't eat or time away from working out), and any time with friends has to be centered around exercise of some form. And yes, steroids are a thing, even for fitness models.
A couple of her friends quit and "went soft" (i.e. 10% body fat, the horror), just because they wanted to do more in life than focus on their bodies 24/7.
Well if they're getting paid for it I guess it could be a job and not a mental health issue. After all, a job is something distasteful to most of us, and we obsessively do it 40 hours a week, sometimes more.
I hope it pays well so they can enjoy an early retirement, seems to me most fitness models won't be able to keep it up long. They usually look about 20 in those photos.0 -
Anorexics are the Queens Of Denial. Nobody is better at denying an obvious problem or hiding and lying and trying keeping a secret than anorexics.
They literally do see themselves incorrectly and deny how they look. I've seen people do confrontations exercises with anorexics in group sessions where they make an outline of the person with pencils on paper to show the person how small their outline is. The girl on there was arguing and insisting the people tracing her were purposely pushing the pencils in past her actual outline. She was outright denying that her body was the size it was.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
I've often joked that if I were hiring someone to be a spy or for some Natioanal Security thing, I'd ask, "Were you ever anorexic?" and hire the first person who said, "Yes." No matter how strong and obvious the evidence to the contrary, an anorexic will lie. They will maintain their stance no matter WHAT. Those are people who will keep a secret!
Tie them down and shove tubes up their nose - they still deny it. Show them their labs vs normal labs, denial.
Confronting an anorexic about their disease - you may as well confront a lion about his roar. You'd get pretty much the same response. OF COURSE they're going to deny it. Duh. That's what they do. If you hadn't told me the girl had denied it, I'd have known she would've.
If you think they're seeing an overweight person in the mirror, you're just wrong. As wrong as wrong can be.
The issue isn't logic. The issue is emotional. I don't know who said that you cannot logic a person out of a place where logic doesn't reign, but it's true. You cannot logic an anorexic out of it. By the time they can accept and admit to anything logical, you've already had to do some helping.0 -
I've talked about the muscle issue with exactly two people who had it, but I've spent more hours than I could count with anorexics.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
Interesting perspective but on what are you basing your comments about they don't actually see themselves as "small" in their perception? Is it based on research you have come across or anecdotal experience
I'm not saying you are wrong but thinking back across many years in various weight rooms I can think of at least a couple of conversations I have had where guys have alluded to the fact not that they felt small but they were small even when they were far more muscular than me. I dismissed it at the time.
Both the muscle guys I talked to in depth were former addicts. They had quit the drugs/alcohol, but channeled that addictive personality into weight lifting. I had an argument - not a heated emotional, volatile argument, but a disagreement - with a psychiatrist about whether we should be discouraging it, lol. If someone has that personality, I am of the opinion that the weight lifting is better than the drugs, so remind them not to start taking drugs, as so many with muscle dysmorphia do, and leave it be. The other guy was of the opinion that both were bad and should be discouraged. He was young and had higher hopes than I do, thinking everyone can be totally fixed. Maybe his idealism is the better outlook than my more jaded one. He could be right...
Rechanneling sounded good to me, until I read this:ManiacalLaugh wrote: »So, are men now susceptible to the same pressure to look a certain way as women? Is this a thing?
"We're seeing an increased pressure on men to look muscular, create a 'V' shape and have a six pack.”
I definitely know this is a thing, but I'm also absolutely certain this is not limited to men. In a personal training session, my trainer went through her phone and picked out several images of extremely lean and muscular women. She was attempting to show me the extremes a woman has to go through to get her body to look like they look. They were all personal friends of hers and they were all professional fitness models.
The routines of all those women border on Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at the very least. Gym every day for hours and hours - no skipping, unless they're on their deathbeds. Meals that have been precisely planned. Absolutely no time for family (because that either presents a meal they can't eat or time away from working out), and any time with friends has to be centered around exercise of some form. And yes, steroids are a thing, even for fitness models.
A couple of her friends quit and "went soft" (i.e. 10% body fat, the horror), just because they wanted to do more in life than focus on their bodies 24/7.
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Anorexics are the Queens Of Denial. Nobody is better at denying an obvious problem or hiding and lying and trying keeping a secret than anorexics.
They literally do see themselves incorrectly and deny how they look. I've seen people do confrontations exercises with anorexics in group sessions where they make an outline of the person with pencils on paper to show the person how small their outline is. The girl on there was arguing and insisting the people tracing her were purposely pushing the pencils in past her actual outline. She was outright denying that her body was the size it was.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
I've often joked that if I were hiring someone to be a spy or for some Natioanal Security thing, I'd ask, "Were you ever anorexic?" and hire the first person who said, "Yes." No matter how strong and obvious the evidence to the contrary, an anorexic will lie. They will maintain their stance no matter WHAT. Those are people who will keep a secret!
Tie them down and shove tubes up their nose - they still deny it. Show them their labs vs normal labs, denial.
Confronting an anorexic about their disease - you may as well confront a lion about his roar. You'd get pretty much the same response. OF COURSE they're going to deny it. Duh. That's what they do. If you hadn't told me the girl had denied it, I'd have known she would've.
If you think they're seeing an overweight person in the mirror, you're just wrong. As wrong as wrong can be.
The issue isn't logic. The issue is emotional. I don't know who said that you cannot logic a person out of a place where logic doesn't reign, but it's true. You cannot logic an anorexic out of it. By the time they can accept and admit to anything logical, you've already had to do some helping.
Perfection obsession. Yep, got a touch of it myself. I know I'm not obese anymore, but chubby isn't good enough. Now if I keep pushing those goals downward into the ridiculous range, it's time for me to get help. I'm too old to put my body through that nonsense. I'd probably die pretty quick.0 -
I don't pretend to have the answer. Like I said, I've talked to exactly two guys who had this problem. I don't have an extensive background in actual working with it and talking to people while they're in throws and after, when they're better. When I talked to them, the muscle issue wasn't even the big focus.kshama2001 wrote: »
I've talked about the muscle issue with exactly two people who had it, but I've spent more hours than I could count with anorexics.Yes, it is a real thing. No, they don't see themselves as small any more than anorexics see themselves as fat. These people aren't delusional. I wish the articles and textbooks would refrain from saying these people see themselves incorrectly. There are problems with seeing their body, but the anorexics don't see an obese person in the mirror and the muscle dysmorphics don't see a scrawny person. They just obsess.
What they see is "not good enough." Not thin enough, even when they're too thin. Not muscular enough, even when they're quite muscular. Anorexics have to lose more. Muscle dysmorphics have to gain more. And more is never enough. It always has to be a little more.
There are many different psychological reasons and each person has their own, unique ones. A lot of times, it stems from insecurity and control issues. These two issues - anorexia and muscle dysmorphia - are very much two sides of the same coin.
Everyone who lifts weights is not a muscle dysmorphic, just like everyone who diets is not an anorexic. But it is a real thing.
Interesting perspective but on what are you basing your comments about they don't actually see themselves as "small" in their perception? Is it based on research you have come across or anecdotal experience
I'm not saying you are wrong but thinking back across many years in various weight rooms I can think of at least a couple of conversations I have had where guys have alluded to the fact not that they felt small but they were small even when they were far more muscular than me. I dismissed it at the time.
Both the muscle guys I talked to in depth were former addicts. They had quit the drugs/alcohol, but channeled that addictive personality into weight lifting. I had an argument - not a heated emotional, volatile argument, but a disagreement - with a psychiatrist about whether we should be discouraging it, lol. If someone has that personality, I am of the opinion that the weight lifting is better than the drugs, so remind them not to start taking drugs, as so many with muscle dysmorphia do, and leave it be. The other guy was of the opinion that both were bad and should be discouraged. He was young and had higher hopes than I do, thinking everyone can be totally fixed. Maybe his idealism is the better outlook than my more jaded one. He could be right...
Rechanneling sounded good to me, until I read this:ManiacalLaugh wrote: »So, are men now susceptible to the same pressure to look a certain way as women? Is this a thing?
"We're seeing an increased pressure on men to look muscular, create a 'V' shape and have a six pack.”
I definitely know this is a thing, but I'm also absolutely certain this is not limited to men. In a personal training session, my trainer went through her phone and picked out several images of extremely lean and muscular women. She was attempting to show me the extremes a woman has to go through to get her body to look like they look. They were all personal friends of hers and they were all professional fitness models.
The routines of all those women border on Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at the very least. Gym every day for hours and hours - no skipping, unless they're on their deathbeds. Meals that have been precisely planned. Absolutely no time for family (because that either presents a meal they can't eat or time away from working out), and any time with friends has to be centered around exercise of some form. And yes, steroids are a thing, even for fitness models.
A couple of her friends quit and "went soft" (i.e. 10% body fat, the horror), just because they wanted to do more in life than focus on their bodies 24/7.
I just have to wonder, you know? If the addict is now weight-lifting and you manage to get them to stop that, what comes next? It's a question that you should be able to answer before you set about the business of fixing it. You better be sure that they won't go back to drinking or drugs. IMO, anyway.
I want to add that I'm not suggesting all MD people are former addicts. My very limited experience happened to be with former addicts, which of course doesn't mean that they all used to be addicts. It means that I was talking to former addicts and that's all.0 -
It's not uncommon in gyms. Where I find it nuts is when the obsession comes to the point of injecting synthol in the muscle to make it look bigger...............even while taking PED's. It's crazy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjwMs24jxNU
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I sent http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/23/one-in-ten-gym-going-men-may-suffer-from-bigorexia-5403795/ to my coworkers. One of them says he does all of the "Signs of muscle dysmorphia" things and we are having an interesting conversation about this.0
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kshama2001 wrote: »I sent http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/23/one-in-ten-gym-going-men-may-suffer-from-bigorexia-5403795/ to my coworkers. One of them says he does all of the "Signs of muscle dysmorphia" things and we are having an interesting conversation about this.
30% of men in the UK are unhappy with their bodies? Whoa, that is much higher than I thought it would be.
It does seem there is a trend towards normalising obsessive / compulsive behaviour or even making it seem desirable. There is clearly a spectrum where beneficial behaviours (being dedicated to your goals) can tip into unhelpful or destructive behaviour.0 -
isn't it just body dysmorphia? does it need it's own name?0
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