Switching up my running routine - question?

BrookWozniak

Hi everyone,
I am fairly new to running. I completed the C25K program about 2 months ago. My pace was slow at 4.3, so I wasn't quite at 3.1 miles, but I was running for 30 minutes straight. (miracle!)

After I completed the program, I worked my way up to being able to actually run 3.1 miles, still running at 4.3 mph. After I reached that goal, I ran at it for a while, just making sure it wasn't a fluke.

A couple weeks ago, I decided to try running faster, but in intervals again. I would run 3 minutes at 5.0, then walk for a minute to recover. I could do this for about 5-6 running sessions at 3 minutes each, then I'd need 2 minutes to recover, or to only run for 2 minutes at 5.0. So it was a definite challenge for me. But....I got a bit bored with this. I missed the structure and feeling of a goal with C25K, so I downloaded C210K. And that is what I have done this past week.

I noticed that while now doing the C210K program, I can run faster. My regular pace is now 4.5, and I think I might even be able to push myself a bit higher. So my week of "sprints" at 5.0 did help increase my speed, and I like that! (I still do not like running, I run for my health, and how it makes me feel....and so I can eat more! Faster is good, means I am done sooner!)

So after this long-winded story, my question is:
Is it bad in any way for my body/muscles to switch off week to week? This week do the C210K, next week do my "sprints", the week after back to C210K? I can't imagine that it is, but I am not very knowledgeable or experienced in all this. So far I have had zero injuries and hope to keep it that way for as long as possible.

I like the idea of building my speed, but also like the gratification of the C210K program that encourages me on. I run 3 days a week (on a treadmill, which I actually prefer over outside at this point).

Thanks for any advice!

deluxmary2000

Can you add a 4th day and incorporate speed-work? Or swap out one of your days for speed-work? I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it would be better to do one concentrated speed session each week rather than a whole week of speed-work. I'm on a half marathon training program now and I'm doing 3 days a week. Tuesdays I do speed-work, Thursdays I do short tempo runs (at projected race pace), and Sundays are my long run.

andysport1

1 session a fortnight speed work 1 session a fortnight hill work, 1 will make you faster the other stronger.

30 + years running knowledge =
Running slower that 10 min mileing causes a problem in the hip muscles as the movement is closer to walking than running, lots of people who run slower than 10mm never cross that threshold, so when I used to coach I always got people to run at 9.58 min per mile when they couldn't hold that any longer walk then as soon as they felt ok again run at 9.58, most of my beginner's class pupils are still running today whereas lots of beginners give up.

9.58 pace is every time you run, you'll be surprised how quickly it all comes together, my wife took just over 2 months on a walk to run plan then her 1st 5k was 30.26 she now runs 26 min 5k's she's 50 and chunky and dearly loved by me.

Commander_Keen

At the end of the day, what is your goal?
You can always go back to C25K and adjust your speed every session. So 1st session was 4.3. Next session could be 4.5 or 4.6 third session could be 4.8 etc..etc..etc.
If are trying to lose weight, then sprints are good, so is HIIT.
Mix and match is great.
but you need to give your body time to rest.

BrookWozniak

Ahhh, thank you so much!!!

@andysport1 I had no idea running slowly could cause problems in the hips! Wow! And I can very much see why slow runners would eventually quit. It takes FOREVER to go anywhere! I love your suggestion of the 1 night of speed work, 1 night of hills (OMG...) and 1 regular session. That will keep it interesting and challenging. What do you recommend for time/distance during these sessions? When I was doing the "sprints" I was going for about 45 minutes and it felt good - tough, yet good.

@Commander_Keen You know, I have no idea what my goal is. I am in weight loss mode right now, but I have less of a concern about the pounds (just a few away from a healthy BMI) and more about HEALTH. Of course, weight loss comes with that. My first goal was to be able to run a 5K...and now I feel like I'm floating a bit. No thought about giving it up, but no real goal. Which isn't good. So I thought "speed" would be my next hurdle, but got bored with how I was trying to do it. I like your idea on going back to the C25K and pushing myself faster too! Why didn't I think of that?

@deluxmary2000 Adding a night....oh man, ughhhh. I'm not so sure I could keep that up for long-term honestly. And I'm only trying to incorporate things that I know I can do for life. My schedule is very crazy and I'm often up at 5 AM, but don't even have time to run until 8 or 9 PM. The thought of adding something else is daunting. BUT, it's something I will keep in mind too and see if I can squeeze in. I'm thinking as I become faster/stronger, I will want to run more often and it won't seem like a task or a chore. (at least I hope??? LOL)

Thanks again everyone, I truly, truly appreciate it.

andysport1

You need to run 3 x a week for muscle memory, 2 miles is a run. as for a normal session I would suggest you go out for an hour 10 mins warm up so like fast walk plus stretching then do your run session. As for the hills session find a slope that you can run fast up for 30 seconds you don't need a mountain. 2 mile walk/run warm up then Run up 30 seconds jog down repeat for 30 mins then Run/walk home the 2 miles.
Remember if your really busy 2 miles or 20 minutes is all you need to do to keep the muscle memory, running is a bug once you've got it it's hard to get rid of it.

_Waffle_

BrookWozniak wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I am fairly new to running. I completed the C25K program about 2 months ago. My pace was slow at 4.3, so I wasn't quite at 3.1 miles, but I was running for 30 minutes straight. (miracle!)

After I completed the program, I worked my way up to being able to actually run 3.1 miles, still running at 4.3 mph. After I reached that goal, I ran at it for a while, just making sure it wasn't a fluke.

A couple weeks ago, I decided to try running faster, but in intervals again. I would run 3 minutes at 5.0, then walk for a minute to recover. I could do this for about 5-6 running sessions at 3 minutes each, then I'd need 2 minutes to recover, or to only run for 2 minutes at 5.0. So it was a definite challenge for me. But....I got a bit bored with this. I missed the structure and feeling of a goal with C25K, so I downloaded C210K. And that is what I have done this past week.

I noticed that while now doing the C210K program, I can run faster. My regular pace is now 4.5, and I think I might even be able to push myself a bit higher. So my week of "sprints" at 5.0 did help increase my speed, and I like that! (I still do not like running, I run for my health, and how it makes me feel....and so I can eat more! Faster is good, means I am done sooner!)

So after this long-winded story, my question is:
Is it bad in any way for my body/muscles to switch off week to week? This week do the C210K, next week do my "sprints", the week after back to C210K? I can't imagine that it is, but I am not very knowledgeable or experienced in all this. So far I have had zero injuries and hope to keep it that way for as long as possible.

I like the idea of building my speed, but also like the gratification of the C210K program that encourages me on. I run 3 days a week (on a treadmill, which I actually prefer over outside at this point).

Thanks for any advice!

There's no reason why you can't do C210k every other week given that you're doing some running on the off week. Some interval work is fun but don't get caught up in pushing yourself too much in the same week. Too much too soon and you'll run the risk of getting an injury. Keep the speed work down to 1 day per week until you've been doing this longer. Just work on your endurance.

dewd2

andysport1 wrote: »

1 session a fortnight speed work 1 session a fortnight hill work, 1 will make you faster the other stronger.

30 + years running knowledge =
Running slower that 10 min mileing causes a problem in the hip muscles as the movement is closer to walking than running, lots of people who run slower than 10mm never cross that threshold, so when I used to coach I always got people to run at 9.58 min per mile when they couldn't hold that any longer walk then as soon as they felt ok again run at 9.58, most of my beginner's class pupils are still running today whereas lots of beginners give up.

9.58 pace is every time you run, you'll be surprised how quickly it all comes together, my wife took just over 2 months on a walk to run plan then her 1st 5k was 30.26 she now runs 26 min 5k's she's 50 and chunky and dearly loved by me.

Really? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering where this advice comes from. Do you have references?

I almost never run faster than 10 minute miles. Almost all the advice I get (from coaches, books, magazines, etc) is to run slow and long. Slow is relative to your fitness level. Slow to me is just above 10 minute mile.

Physically, walking and running at any speed are completely different. Walking means keeping one foot on the ground at all times. Running has both feet off the ground with each stride.

dewd2

OP - Are you doing all of your running on a treadmill?

mbaker566

dewd2 wrote: »

andysport1 wrote: »

1 session a fortnight speed work 1 session a fortnight hill work, 1 will make you faster the other stronger.

30 + years running knowledge =
Running slower that 10 min mileing causes a problem in the hip muscles as the movement is closer to walking than running, lots of people who run slower than 10mm never cross that threshold, so when I used to coach I always got people to run at 9.58 min per mile when they couldn't hold that any longer walk then as soon as they felt ok again run at 9.58, most of my beginner's class pupils are still running today whereas lots of beginners give up.

9.58 pace is every time you run, you'll be surprised how quickly it all comes together, my wife took just over 2 months on a walk to run plan then her 1st 5k was 30.26 she now runs 26 min 5k's she's 50 and chunky and dearly loved by me.

Really? Not saying you are wrong, just wondering where this advice comes from. Do you have references?

I almost never run faster than 10 minute miles. Almost all the advice I get (from coaches, books, magazines, etc) is to run slow and long. Slow is relative to your fitness level. Slow to me is just above 10 minute mile.

Physically, walking and running at any speed are completely different. Walking means keeping one foot on the ground at all times. Running has both feet off the ground with each stride.

I'm new but I agree with you more.

Stoshew71

BrookWozniak wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I am fairly new to running. I completed the C25K program about 2 months ago. My pace was slow at 4.3, so I wasn't quite at 3.1 miles, but I was running for 30 minutes straight. (miracle!)

After I completed the program, I worked my way up to being able to actually run 3.1 miles, still running at 4.3 mph. After I reached that goal, I ran at it for a while, just making sure it wasn't a fluke.

A couple weeks ago, I decided to try running faster, but in intervals again. I would run 3 minutes at 5.0, then walk for a minute to recover. I could do this for about 5-6 running sessions at 3 minutes each, then I'd need 2 minutes to recover, or to only run for 2 minutes at 5.0. So it was a definite challenge for me. But....I got a bit bored with this. I missed the structure and feeling of a goal with C25K, so I downloaded C210K. And that is what I have done this past week.

I noticed that while now doing the C210K program, I can run faster. My regular pace is now 4.5, and I think I might even be able to push myself a bit higher. So my week of "sprints" at 5.0 did help increase my speed, and I like that! (I still do not like running, I run for my health, and how it makes me feel....and so I can eat more! Faster is good, means I am done sooner!)

So after this long-winded story, my question is:
Is it bad in any way for my body/muscles to switch off week to week? This week do the C210K, next week do my "sprints", the week after back to C210K? I can't imagine that it is, but I am not very knowledgeable or experienced in all this. So far I have had zero injuries and hope to keep it that way for as long as possible.

I like the idea of building my speed, but also like the gratification of the C210K program that encourages me on. I run 3 days a week (on a treadmill, which I actually prefer over outside at this point).

Thanks for any advice!

I am going to sound like a real jerk with some of my nit picky comments, I apologize ahead of time.

First off, your pace is not 4.3 mph, that is your speed. Pace is measured in how many minutes can you run a mile.
4.3 (miles per hour) translates to a pace of 13:57 min/mile. You providing speed is an indication that you are possibly measuring this on a treadmill (as someone else asked above)? If so, my first advise is to see if you can get outside and start running if possible.

I assume you are asking these questions because you want to do good (or better) in 5K and 10K races? Unless they have treadmill races, you will want to experience your training on the road.

I suggest you load a running app (like endomundo, mapmyrun, runtastic, or runkeeper) on your phone and use the phone GPS to track how far and pace. Even better, get a running watch like a Garmin ForeRunner and use that. Since you are new, the phone apps are good enough, but I prefer my ForeRunner 220 that I bought from a friend who was upgrading. I actually upgraded from the ForeRunner 10 which is about as basic for a running watch you can get. If you are afraid of the price tags on these watches brand new, then finding a used one on CraigsList or Amazon is a good way to get a decent watch at a cheaper price. But the phone apps are free (with limited capability) and if you upgrade to the paid version, it is only like a few bucks. Well worth the investment.

Use an online logger to track your runs. Strava is the most popular (www.strava.com). You can synch a garmin watch (as well as other brands) and many of the phone apps allow you to upload your running data. http://www.runningahead.com/ Is another great online running data logger but not as popular with the mfp folks. By the way, www.dcrainmaker.com is the most complete reviewer of running watches if you wanted to go that route. Or you can post a question back on here at mfp if you had a specific question about watches.

OK, to address the other things in your OP. You claim you are slow. Everyone thinks they are slow. it doesn't matter. It is not what defines you as a runner. Read this article:
http://runnersconnect.net/coach-corner/so-what-youre-a-slow-runner/

The fact that you can run 30 minutes straight is a huge victory in of itself. Congratulations. This is a big step.
Running 3.1 miles straight is also a huge step. Another big congratulations.

Running speed intervals is not where you want to be right now. Where you are at right now, this won't give you the biggest bang for your buck to make you "faster". As you state: if you can run at a speed of 4.3 mph, you can run for 30 minutes straight or 3.1 miles. But if you run at a 5.0 mph speed, you can only hold this for 3 minutes before you need to walk. Where you are right now is where you need to build up what they call an "aerobic base". Intervals are not the most efficient way of doing this.

Allow me to explain at the cost of making this response super big. But I think it will benefit you (and anyone else reading this in a similuar situation) big time. Here is what is happening when you jump on that treadmill (or the road if you aren't on a treadmill). You hit start and start running at 5 mph, for the first 90 seconds your body is using anaerobic conversion to provide the energy your muscles need to run. This means no oxygen is necessary. The reserves your muscle has to allow you to run anaerobically only lasts for about 90 seconds, maybe less. After which your body will start converting stored energy into an energy form that your muscle needs to run (something called ATP) by using the oxygen you breath in. The faster you run, the more demand for oxygen you create. If you run so fast that your muscles use more oxygen than can be supplied, then your muscles go back to just the anaerobic process to convert energy and eventually your muscles become so acidic that you fatigue very fast. The muscles become acidic by hydrogen ions produced as a waste product during lactate fermintation. What this all means is that when you run too fast and your body can no longer provide enough oxygen to the muscles, your body reverts back to a process where these ions become a waste product and causes you to stop running. When you walk, your muscles "catch up" and can clear these ions with oxygen you are breathing in. That is why you can go back to running again after walking for a period of time. These "intervals" do have a purpose in training, but you are not there yet. You will achieve much more from aerobic base building. Instead of intervals which will practice your, what we call, "lactate clearing", I suggest you run many miles at a slower pace to stress your entire aerobic system. The following video is from Dr. Jack Daniels, and he is regarded as the most knowledgable expert running coach in America in this field. Basically, what I am suggesting is that you will get more out of running more miles at your slower "conversational" pace, then attempting less miles in this faster paced interval style. The improvements made by aerobic base building is a function of miles (time spent running) and not speed. So the more miles you can run at a slower speed, the faster your entire aerobic system will build up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY

mwyvr

@Stoshew71 Bravo!

Stoshew71

I also wanted to address some other questions you had. Assuming you were to do intervals or any type of speed work. Usually you only want to do this type of training twice a week. The majority of your running (like 80%) should be done at that easy "conversational" pace.

Speed work type of training will cause a lot of stress to your physical body that will require more time to recover from. If you do it too often without enough time to rest, you will cause what we call "overuse injuries". Shin splints, achiles tendon related, plantar fasciitis, IT band syndrome, are just a few that get named quite often.

There are 2 systems you are developing with your running. Your physical system (muscles, bones, tendons, ligaments, ect) and the cardio vascular (heart, blood {hemoglobin and capillaries}, and metochondria). As you are developing the one, you are also developing the other. Your physical system is what most likely will limit how much training you can do before getting injured. Another reason why slower is better. You will be able to run more miles more often, than running less often at a faster speed. The faster speed will require more time to recover in between workouts. The slower speed is easier on your physical system allowing you to run much further and more often with less rest time in between.

This does mean you have to build up what miles you run each week very slowly to limit your risk to overuse injury.
So switching between the "sprinting" one week and the structured plan the other week is not "bad in anyway" as long as you allow your body enough recovery time, but it is just not beneficial to you right now of very efficient in what you are trying to achieve. (as explained in my previous post).

I did notice that you did say that the reason for running to you is, "I run for my health, and how it makes me feel....and so I can eat more! Faster is good, means I am done sooner!)" So no race plans. I am not sure why you don't want to run outside just yet. But once I started running outside, I didn't want to run on the treadmill ever again. The treadmill is so boring. And I believe that is something else you stated. And probabaly why you want to get done sooner.

Outside you have the great scenic views, the fresh air, the sound and smells of nature, it is so relaxing and peacful, and has a joy of itself. I have running groups where we socialize and spend great time with each other on our runs together. I think you will enjoy it. If you for some reason feel embarassed or think people will some how judge you as a runner, that is not the case. No one cares what your speed is or what you look like while you are out there running. We all been there and you will soon find out that the running community is the biggest group of supporters.

SueInAz

mwyvr wrote: »

@Stoshew71 Bravo!

Agreed! Additionally, especially for newer runners, running farther will help you run faster. In other words, regularly running 10K slowly will increase your 5K speed as you increase endurance. It seems counterproductive, I know but after a few years of running I've jumped on the 80%/20% bandwagon; 80% of runs should be at a conversational pace with the other 20% faster. It's helping me so far but I won't know for certain how well until I can start regularly running in temps under 70°. That's bound to be a few weeks still as the highs here are still in the mid-90s

Stoshew71

andysport1 wrote: »

1 session a fortnight speed work 1 session a fortnight hill work, 1 will make you faster the other stronger.

30 + years running knowledge =
Running slower that 10 min mileing causes a problem in the hip muscles as the movement is closer to walking than running, lots of people who run slower than 10mm never cross that threshold, so when I used to coach I always got people to run at 9.58 min per mile when they couldn't hold that any longer walk then as soon as they felt ok again run at 9.58, most of my beginner's class pupils are still running today whereas lots of beginners give up.

9.58 pace is every time you run, you'll be surprised how quickly it all comes together, my wife took just over 2 months on a walk to run plan then her 1st 5k was 30.26 she now runs 26 min 5k's she's 50 and chunky and dearly loved by me.

I am not sure what you are suggesting here. The problems associated with hip injuries has to do more with poor form and weak underdeveloped muscle groups. Also, stretching & foam rolling relieves some of the tightness in the hip area to reduce the pressure causing hip injuries. Also, there are strength exercises you can do to develop your hip and glutes muscles to reduce the risk to injury. Having you force this woman to run faster than her aerbic system can handle is not going to help her in the long run and will scare her to run slower. Not very many people can run faster than 10 minute miles for very long, nor should they need to.


@BrookWozniak if you think you may start to experience hip or any other stiffness/pain, there is plenty of better advise to give you as opposed to "run faster".

What I will say is that increased cadence will help. But increased cadence has nothing to do with pace. The ideal is to run 180 steps in one minute no matter what pace you run. This will guide you into the proper form. Too many people when they run a slower cadence will have a longer stride causing them to have their feet land too out in front of their center of gravity. This causes injuries. Not the motion similar to walking with makes no sense. I like to see some reference documentation on what you are referring to here.

This video will be more helpful in what you need to do to reduce risk to injury in hips and other joints:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYjimh70LGs

BrookWozniak

Wow, so much great info here!

@Stoshew71 & @dewd2 Yes, I run on a treadmill and actually prefer it at this point in my life. I live on a very busy road in NYC (Queens) so running outside is not exactly peaceful. Cars, pedestrians, uneven sidewalks, and more. People do run outside a lot in my 'hood during the day, but so far it hasn't been my thing. There is a quieter road about 8 blocks away that leads eventually to a very nice running track and that IS great the handful of times I've made it down there. But even more of a reason I run inside, I'm a busy Mom + I run my own business - I'm up very early and go to bed very late. My running time is most often later at night...and it's just not realistic to walk/jog all the way there in the dark. Something that may eventually change, but just not at this point in my life. The treadmill is the only time I get to watch TV too, so a bit of a perk.

Everything you said about doing the speed/intervals training just once a week makes complete sense and I love hearing the science behind it, thank you so much for your time into that post. GREAT videos! I do have one race planned, but doing races isn't my ultimate goal, it's just a side thing that I can now enjoy. I really am doing this for my health more than anything. And a personal accomplishment - I like to challenge myself.

So far I don't have any concerns about injury. For my stride, when I first started, I just started running - having NO clue, but as I got more into the C25K program, I did some research and have really tried to keep my stride smaller and my arms relaxed, as I tend to tense up on the left side for some reason. The 180 spm is interesting, I'm curious where I am and will be checking myself during my run tomorrow. Great info about the foot strike too - I'll be checking myself on that as well!

So in all, it sounds like my best bet is to keep on with the C210K program to keep growing my endurance and my speed will naturally improve at some point. After I can cover more miles, maybe after the C210K program, and I'm running more comfortably - then consider working on speed if I suddenly have a desire for races. But otherwise, just go for those easy long runs! Yes?

Thank you for the congrats. It still seems a bit surreal that I can do this, I have never been an athlete of any sorts - more the computer/book nerd. I still don't see myself as "a runner" but perhaps with a few more miles under my shoes. I'm going on vacation/business trip soon, I think I'll try a run outside - I'll have more time and it will be scenic!!!