I want Abs, Help!
Replies
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I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.0 -
Reverse crunches, double leg lifts with weights on, and those reverse crunches where you lift your legs straight in the air (with weights on) are all great. Do all the reverse crunches using just one side at a diagonal to hit those low front obliques, too.
I can't see my lower ab definition, but I can feel the muscle and see those obliques (I have my bodyfat layer down the center). I do these exercises listed above and bellydance isolation drills as my low ab iso work. I enjoy it
I use full-core bracing in other parts of my workouts, too, as one should.
I also do 2 x 20 ab 'bracing' separately which strikes me as isolation work, but that includes low abs, so I'll mention it, too.0 -
I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs0 -
V-ups, oblique ups, planks, burpies, yoga, spin. All these are great for abs, cyclists actually have the best abs because their core is engaged all the time0
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How do you know when you've lost enough weight and just aren't seeing them because you're not working your core enough?
I'm 5'1" and 103lbs, do hanging legs raises, bicycle crunches, sprinter crunches, plank, and side plank. Usually two/three days in a row and then a day off because that's what my schedule allows. Was doing cardio but giving my knee some rest.
Not sure if I need to loose more weight or ramp up sets/reps to see them. I have the start of definition, but no line down the center.0 -
Try adding weights to your workouts, but lowering your reps with more sets0
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I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.0 -
soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
That's because they don't care about body fat, just about making a weight class. Some of the ones with very barrel like stomachs are due to steroids and eating huge volumes of food.0 -
I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.0 -
I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/0 -
Rybread0918 wrote: »How do you know when you've lost enough weight and just aren't seeing them because you're not working your core enough?
I'm 5'1" and 103lbs, do hanging legs raises, bicycle crunches, sprinter crunches, plank, and side plank. Usually two/three days in a row and then a day off because that's what my schedule allows. Was doing cardio but giving my knee some rest.
Not sure if I need to loose more weight or ramp up sets/reps to see them. I have the start of definition, but no line down the center.
@Rybread0918 The line down the center was the last part I saw and having a line or even a defined six pack is genetic. It's not about how much you weigh, it's about body fat percentage. As a female, if you get to 18% and you aren't seeing much abs it means you don't have enough muscle.0 -
I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
If you have 40 more pounds to go I would not be too worried that you can't see every ab right now.I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.
Completely agree with the idea that more isolation stimulation is what is going to get muscles to grow. My comment about sarcoplasm / myofibrillar was very specifically about the form of the adaptation.
I very much wrote under the impression because I could be wrong, and if there was evidence for it, I'd be interested.0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
If you have 40 more pounds to go I would not be too worried that you can't see every ab right now.I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.
Completely agree with the idea that more isolation stimulation is what is going to get muscles to grow. My comment about sarcoplasm / myofibrillar was very specifically about the form of the adaptation.
I very much wrote under the impression because I could be wrong, and if there was evidence for it, I'd be interested.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the form of adaptation". I apologize for that, these headaches have made comprehension and even retention of information difficult.0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
If you have 40 more pounds to go I would not be too worried that you can't see every ab right now.I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.
Completely agree with the idea that more isolation stimulation is what is going to get muscles to grow. My comment about sarcoplasm / myofibrillar was very specifically about the form of the adaptation.
I very much wrote under the impression because I could be wrong, and if there was evidence for it, I'd be interested.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the form of adaptation". I apologize for that, these headaches have made comprehension and even retention of information difficult.
The linked article's author thinks that the size versus power type changes that happen between strength training ranges and body building ranges have to do with some combination of
1. Neural adaptations - strength training increases the neural output and skill with heavy weights
2. Muscle fiber types - body builders train more towards exhaustion which should recruit type I muscle fibers, but strength training is almost all type II fibers
3. Endurance adaptions - body builder training may increase muscle glycogen and protein storage, and possibly more mitochondria.
The #2 and possibly the glycogen of #3 are probably a fair part of what accounts for high rep ranges leading to large muscles without as great of increases in 1 rep max strength - instead of it happening because the sarcoplasm grows more from high rep ranges.0 -
amyrebeccah wrote: »soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
If you have 40 more pounds to go I would not be too worried that you can't see every ab right now.I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.
Completely agree with the idea that more isolation stimulation is what is going to get muscles to grow. My comment about sarcoplasm / myofibrillar was very specifically about the form of the adaptation.
I very much wrote under the impression because I could be wrong, and if there was evidence for it, I'd be interested.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the form of adaptation". I apologize for that, these headaches have made comprehension and even retention of information difficult.
The linked article's author thinks that the size versus power type changes that happen between strength training ranges and body building ranges have to do with some combination of
1. Neural adaptations - strength training increases the neural output and skill with heavy weights
2. Muscle fiber types - body builders train more towards exhaustion which should recruit type I muscle fibers, but strength training is almost all type II fibers
3. Endurance adaptions - body builder training may increase muscle glycogen and protein storage, and possibly more mitochondria.
The #2 and possibly the glycogen of #3 are probably a fair part of what accounts for high rep ranges leading to large muscles without as great of increases in 1 rep max strength - instead of it happening because the sarcoplasm grows more from high rep ranges.
It is pretty well established that the increase in mitochondria is cause by working in the aerobic zone. Most bodybuilders are not working out in this range, in fact I would be surprised if any successful ones do, aside from their cardio. There is actually strong indications that mitochondria are decreased compared to overall cell size after strength training. This is one of the reason the you need to pick one idea was born.
Glycogen is not the driver of muscle contractions at the rep ranges that bodybuilders work at. Contractions are produced by the sarcomeres' use of ATP. This makes ATP, and to a lesser degree creatine, the main drivers of contraction.
Type I muscle fibers are generally recruited in long duration contractions. (i.e. Endurance athletes). There is some discussion about these types of fibers but nearly all forms of strength training (bodybuilding, powerlifting, or olympic lifting) recruit one of the type II fibers.
The last thing is this weird idea that for some reason bodybuilders don't also build strength. That is part of the initial training for nearly every high level bodybuilder. Heavy weights allow for the recruitment and building of more muscle fibers and induce greater growth through stimulus. That was generally done through the high weight low rep schemes early on. Ref Park and Arnold both did 5x5s to start off, which is why I sometimes laugh at the SL love, but understand it.0 -
I wasn't saying body building doesn't recruit type II, only that it is also more likely to recruit type I as type II's reach exhaust. Take a look at the linked article.amyrebeccah wrote: »soldiergrl_101 wrote: »I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
awww @usmcmp I do love it when you use big words....
Hahaha
@psych101 I felt they were important in this instance. Sometimes people think that lifting means getting bigger and getting stronger without realizing that you can get either bigger or stronger without gaining much in the other department. Stronglifts is a prime example of a program built for people to get stronger. Since many beginners do this program they also manage to gain a little bit of size, but usually only enough to support basic strength gains.
People forget this for some reason. You can get stronger without getting much bigger. It's why bodybuilders may do strength cycles, but generally avoid strength programs. They need to get bigger, not stronger. A strength cycle can help them break a plateau, but is slower size gains than a traditional bodybuilding program. You already knew this, I am just stating it for lurkers.
All these posts have been really informative thanks guys. I have seen lots of heavy lifters that are still big, they lift a lot which is intensive but some of them look obese...I don't want to look like that, I want to see muscle definition and continue to get smaller until I achieve my goal weight which is about another 40lbs
If you have 40 more pounds to go I would not be too worried that you can't see every ab right now.I was replying to the original post. But having read that, I put an exclamation point on my original recommendation. With the exception of actual 'weakness' in the lower abs (as opposed to just not feeling muscle there) isolation work in general is a waste of energy when you are doing a program like strong lifts, and doing so at a caloric deficit (which limits your volume). Strong lifts are OK, but I'm a bigger fan of other programs. Even so, strong lifts are pretty legit, and focusing on that should eventually address the lower ab weakness. You simply can't squat and deadlift heavy without a strong core. So focusing even more energy and focus on increasing squat and deadlift will do a lot more than any isolation work. The only exception is if you are FAILING on squat and/or deadlift due to weak abs. In which case, the supplementary isolation work would be helpful and even more important than the cardio. Why? Because the deadlifts and squats are more important to the cardio an you have to to support those lifts first (while in a caloric deficit). So I wouldn't go by how your abs look or feel while you're a work in progress. My abs totally sucked about a year ago, they were flabby and weak. I haven't done any ab work at all, just heavy weights, and my abs are made of steel now. Deadlifts, heavy--all the way. Best core exercise there is.
A strong core doesn't mean visible abs. Building abdominal aesthetics does take isolation work. In her case, she wants to add volume to the abdominal muscles which means more isolation work is needed in the hypertrophy range. She's not aiming to be a powerlifter with a strong core, she's aiming for added volume in the muscles. There's a big difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy.
I was under the impression that targeting sarcoplasmic versus myofibrillar adaptations was bro-science.
Would you call the rep ranges bro-science? It's easier to get stronger in a 3-5 range, which is myofibrillar hypertrophy. It's easier to add lean mass/size in an 8-12 range, which is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Neither happens in a vacuum. Most studies I've seen trying to disprove it are done in beginners, which of course results in gains of strength and size.
There can be differences in adaption. That doesn't mean the muscles actually grow more sarcoplasm or myofibrillar fibers to meet those adaptations.
http://www.kropblog.dk/en/sarcoplasmic-hypertrophy/
That's too long to read through right now. My entire point (which is actually null now, knowing she has about 40 pounds more to lose), was that for someone who specifically wants more volume in their abs there is reason to add additional abdominal exercises. If someone wanted larger quads we wouldn't discourage them from adding in quad work, but it seems to be the normal for someone who wants more volume in their abs.
Completely agree with the idea that more isolation stimulation is what is going to get muscles to grow. My comment about sarcoplasm / myofibrillar was very specifically about the form of the adaptation.
I very much wrote under the impression because I could be wrong, and if there was evidence for it, I'd be interested.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "the form of adaptation". I apologize for that, these headaches have made comprehension and even retention of information difficult.
The linked article's author thinks that the size versus power type changes that happen between strength training ranges and body building ranges have to do with some combination of
1. Neural adaptations - strength training increases the neural output and skill with heavy weights
2. Muscle fiber types - body builders train more towards exhaustion which should recruit type I muscle fibers, but strength training is almost all type II fibers
3. Endurance adaptions - body builder training may increase muscle glycogen and protein storage, and possibly more mitochondria.
The #2 and possibly the glycogen of #3 are probably a fair part of what accounts for high rep ranges leading to large muscles without as great of increases in 1 rep max strength - instead of it happening because the sarcoplasm grows more from high rep ranges.
It is pretty well established that the increase in mitochondria is cause by working in the aerobic zone. Most bodybuilders are not working out in this range, in fact I would be surprised if any successful ones do, aside from their cardio. There is actually strong indications that mitochondria are decreased compared to overall cell size after strength training. This is one of the reason the you need to pick one idea was born.
Glycogen is not the driver of muscle contractions at the rep ranges that bodybuilders work at. Contractions are produced by the sarcomeres' use of ATP. This makes ATP, and to a lesser degree creatine, the main drivers of contraction.
Type I muscle fibers are generally recruited in long duration contractions. (i.e. Endurance athletes). There is some discussion about these types of fibers but nearly all forms of strength training (bodybuilding, powerlifting, or olympic lifting) recruit one of the type II fibers.
The last thing is this weird idea that for some reason bodybuilders don't also build strength. That is part of the initial training for nearly every high level bodybuilder. Heavy weights allow for the recruitment and building of more muscle fibers and induce greater growth through stimulus. That was generally done through the high weight low rep schemes early on. Ref Park and Arnold both did 5x5s to start off, which is why I sometimes laugh at the SL love, but understand it.
Nor was I saying body builders don't build strength. They just aren't as likely to produce the same 1 rep max that an athlete training explicitly for strength is, even if they can do similar weight on a 5 rep set.0 -
All this isolation work advice and mentality is ill-advised. Sounds like you have stubborn fat in your lower abs. What worked for me (6 pack at age 46) is heavy-compound movements that work the core. For example: Deadlifts. With heavy weight. Squats (heavy barbell squats). Add in 2 times a week of high intensity cardio such as jump rope or sprints or stationary bike sprint intervals. Keep the calories in check (slight deficit). I do not do "ab work" because I lift heavy weight off the ground, and the abs are stabilizers. Build muscle, torch fat, and your abs will show up one day.
What this guy said X2 - heavy hi rep squats OH Press etc - the abs stabilize all that weight - abs are a muscle & you need to build it - then you need low body fat - try complexes - google the evil 8 complex - that bit of fat on your lower abs can be stubborn - Eastcoast Jim0 -
I think once your body fat % goes down with your proper eating, you will notice them more. I box three times a week along with being an avid runner and I find planking is a great core exercise. Try doing them while doing splits or mountain climbers. Really good for your core. And the more you do them, you'll be surprised how strong your core will get over time. We did a five minute plank last month at my boxing club and managed to do it along with a lot of shaking arms but once your core gets stronger, Challenge yourself and try to do a five minute plank and see how far you can get.0
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