Does this SL5x5 adjustment make sense?

McCloud33

I've been doing Stronglifts for about 15 months now and have seen great strength gains, but looking to just switch up the exercises a little. I was thinking about swapping back squats for front squats, regular bench for incline, bent over rows for weighted pull-ups, and overhead press for clean and jerk. I'd leave the deadlifts in there. I know everyone says, "don't modify the program", but this seems like it would be fairly similar and just give me a little variation for awhile. Any thoughts...good or bad?

crashchamp

15 Months is a long time. Have you stalled out? I would consider changing into a different split if so. Maybe a push pull legs routine?

McCloud33

Yeah, I've stalled out...gone through a couple of bulk/cut cycles...dropped weights and worked back up. I'm cutting again and so my lifting weights are suffering a little again.

I like the simplicity and 3 day routine, just wanting to switch up some of the exercises themselves. I was thinking the one's I proposed using were still full body, compound lifts and might help hit a little different muscles than I had been.

Badger_Girl99

I think it's time to change it up - 15 months is a long time. Now, I'm no expert, but you might be stagnant because of doing the same moves for so long. My suggestion: do an A, B, C type thing, where you are working the same muscle groups, just different exercises. A MFP person on here told me to do that and it worked out pretty well.

jemhh

My opinion is try it and see if you like it but don't call it SL5x5 unless you want to hear people tell you it's not SL5x5

I do 5/3/1. In the first book, Wendler says front squats are a fine sub for back squats. In his online FAQs, he's changed his mind and said they aren't. In the past I had a ton of trouble with back squats so I did them as my main squat using 5/3/1 anyway for five cycles. It worked great for me. No regrets. I think it's generally best to follow a program but you know yourself and your goals better than anybody else does and if you've put in a certain amount of training you can adjust exercises a bit.

crashchamp

I don't see anything wrong with making the switches you consider. I can't see it hurting any progress since you are still hitting the same muscle groups with similar movements. If you don't progress like you want its easy to switch back or find something else. I personally am going on about 9 months of ICF 5X5, I like the supplemental work it adds on top of the big lifts.

McCloud33

jemhh wrote: »

My opinion is try it and see if you like it but don't call it SL5x5 unless you want to hear people tell you it's not SL5x5

I do 5/3/1. In the first book, Wendler says front squats are a fine sub for back squats. In his online FAQs, he's changed his mind and said they aren't. In the past I had a ton of trouble with back squats so I did them as my main squat using 5/3/1 anyway for five cycles. It worked great for me. No regrets. I think it's generally best to follow a program but you know yourself and your goals better than anybody else does and if you've put in a certain amount of training you can adjust exercises a bit.

Thanks @jemhh I won't call it SL5x5...haha. I do like the app though and thought I could still use it for this variation as long as I knew what 5 exercises I was doing to correspond.

jemhh

McCloud33 wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

My opinion is try it and see if you like it but don't call it SL5x5 unless you want to hear people tell you it's not SL5x5

I do 5/3/1. In the first book, Wendler says front squats are a fine sub for back squats. In his online FAQs, he's changed his mind and said they aren't. In the past I had a ton of trouble with back squats so I did them as my main squat using 5/3/1 anyway for five cycles. It worked great for me. No regrets. I think it's generally best to follow a program but you know yourself and your goals better than anybody else does and if you've put in a certain amount of training you can adjust exercises a bit.

Thanks @jemhh I won't call it SL5x5...haha. I do like the app though and thought I could still use it for this variation as long as I knew what 5 exercises I was doing to correspond.

I just remembered that a few weeks ago I was looking at various 5x5 programs and saw one that includes most of what you want to do: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler73.htm. (The first program listed.)

nordlead2005

If you've stalled the SL website has suggestions for moving on such as 3x5, 3x3, 1x3, and then onto Madcow 5x5

http://stronglifts.com/what-to-do-after-12-weeks-of-stronglifts-5x5/

I've been doing SL5x5 since February (had to stop twice for long periods), but have been losing weight for most of it. I'm considering going to 3x5 to save time until I get done losing weight and seeing if I continue to progress more quickly in maintenance or a bulk. I know I still have room to grow on some lifts even while in a deficit so I'm going to continue the program (I also like the simplicity of the program, hence why I want to stay with it).

I recently added pull-ups and switched OHP to Push Press, so I call my routine SL5x5 modified.

piperdown44

Switched over to 531 after SL5x5 a while back. Periodically I will run a SL cycle but I have been reading a bit more on this program as it looks interesting http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631
It's called Fierce 5. There are several programming options depending on how advanced a lifter you are.

Here's the link to the comprehensive set of Fierce 5 http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162916931&page=1

jmule24

McCloud33 wrote: »

I've been doing Stronglifts for about 15 months now and have seen great strength gains, but looking to just switch up the exercises a little. I was thinking about swapping back squats for front squats, regular bench for incline, bent over rows for weighted pull-ups, and overhead press for clean and jerk. I'd leave the deadlifts in there. I know everyone says, "don't modify the program", but this seems like it would be fairly similar and just give me a little variation for awhile. Any thoughts...good or bad?

Yeah, the "don't modify" part is for absolute beginners. You're definitely at a point where you can modify all you want. Switching to those lifts will allow you to use a lower weight and progress like you normally had in the past 5lbs/ session etc.

As long as you continue to follow "progressive overload" any program works. I also LOVE 3x/week lifting so I modified 5/3/1 to a 3x/week FB routine. I'm still making progress and it's easy for me to follow the program too.

McCloud33

piperdown44 wrote: »

Switched over to 531 after SL5x5 a while back. Periodically I will run a SL cycle but I have been reading a bit more on this program as it looks interesting http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631
It's called Fierce 5. There are several programming options depending on how advanced a lifter you are.

Here's the link to the comprehensive set of Fierce 5 http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=162916931&page=1

This one looks interesting, maybe when I go back on a maintenance or bulk phase I'll try it out.

McCloud33

nordlead2005 wrote: »

If you've stalled the SL website has suggestions for moving on such as 3x5, 3x3, 1x3, and then onto Madcow 5x5

http://stronglifts.com/what-to-do-after-12-weeks-of-stronglifts-5x5/

I've been doing SL5x5 since February (had to stop twice for long periods), but have been losing weight for most of it. I'm considering going to 3x5 to save time until I get done losing weight and seeing if I continue to progress more quickly in maintenance or a bulk. I know I still have room to grow on some lifts even while in a deficit so I'm going to continue the program (I also like the simplicity of the program, hence why I want to stay with it).

I recently added pull-ups and switched OHP to Push Press, so I call my routine SL5x5 modified.

I've already gone down to basically a 1x5 on everything while in my cut cycle...So for bench I'll do 135x5, 155x5, 185x5, 195x5, and 205x5...then I usually do a set back at 135 amrap. Same with squat, row, and ohp. SO have been 1x5 for the whole program so no need to stop that down at all.

I haven't actually run the program for about 2 weeks now and have basically just been wondering the gym doing this and that as I felt. I know that isn't helping me any which is why I'd like to get back on a structured program.

psuLemon

Generally, if you are plateauing and maximized neurological adaptations i would switch to a hypertrophy style program.

McCloud33

crashchamp wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with making the switches you consider. I can't see it hurting any progress since you are still hitting the same muscle groups with similar movements. If you don't progress like you want its easy to switch back or find something else. I personally am going on about 9 months of ICF 5X5, I like the supplemental work it adds on top of the big lifts.

I'd try ICF, but I go to the gym in the morning before work and like to keep my workouts under an hour. I'm also biking 20 min to the gym and then to work, and try and run on my non lifting days too.

McCloud33

So it looks like most ppl that have commented are ok with the modification. I guess the next question would be are there different exercises that I could substitute besides the ones I suggested that would still be compound exercises.

Sam_I_Am77

psulemon wrote: »

Generally, if you are plateauing and maximized neurological adaptations i would switch to a hypertrophy style program.

Huh???

So it looks like most ppl that have commented are ok with the modification. I guess the next question would be are there different exercises that I could substitute besides the ones I suggested that would still be compound exercises.

I think most of the modifications are okay. I would still do some kind of rowing. Chin-ups are awesome but there is something about Rowing you don't get with Chin-ups. Perhaps it's just the added posterior deltoid, trapezius major, and rhomboid activation. Also, it's not unlikely that after 15-months you'll hit the same wall with these lifts, so what will you do at that point? Honestly, I would move on to a different program, one that can be used for a very long time. Something like the Cube Method, Strong360, or 5/3/1 are all great programs that you can use forever. They are more of a training-system versus a program like SL5x5.

_Bropollo_

I only stayed on for 20 weeks. It's not a forever program. You would probably benefit from some hypertrophy work at this point. I have done best switching between strength and hypertrophy focus every few sessions, helps bust plateaus. I modified the program right from the start to include pull-ups as part of the 5x5 rotations, and I did add accessory work as well. Its a great program for strength, but you won't make size gains all that quickly.

Also if you follow Mehdi's diet advice, you have been lied to. Since you are here, I am assuming you know how you should be eating, but his diet advice is total crap in case you didn't. Small cal surplus + 0.8g protein/lbs bodyweight. Train every other day if you are doing full-body. Sleep a lot. Pretty much it.

Full0fWin

I wouldn't stop back squats completely. Maybe alternate.

I wouldn't bother with something as technical as clean and jerk without a specific reason.

I think it would make more sense to move on to an intermediate routine. Possibly something with an additional day like an u\l or push\pull.

ew_david

After 15 months of SL I would be dying of boredom. I would look into other programs since you're essentially changing the entire SL program so much that it isn't even SL anymore.

armylife

I don't understand the rational or the exercise selection you are suggesting in this modification. If you are going to be running 5x5 with these lifts it is highly likely you are going to see diminished returns since each lift you chose is an auxiliary lift to the lift you are replacing. You will lose significant weight moving to front squats because the weak point is different from squats. Weighted pull ups are great, but do not allow for the same muscles to be targeted as rows, as @Sam_I_Am77 already said. Incline bench is a supporting lift to bench and uses nearly the same muscle groups while changing the angles and distance moved. This lengthens the "stroke" and places more emphasis on the front deltoid than pecs thereby lowering the weight you can move.

The clean and jerk is also not a substitute for the press. But first, what do you mean by clean? When I read that I think the full squat clean, Olympic style. When most people say it they mean power clean. The form differences and the differences in total weight you can move with each is significant and will go to the next few points. From the receive position the full clean is basically a front squat from the bottom position. However, there are variations since you do not actively engage in the eccentric portion of the squat. It also requires a good deal of time to develop the technique. At first, while weights are light, a lifter can ignore this fact and muscle through the lift. However, the failure point is stark and approaches quickly which makes the lift self limiting. Without the proper form you will not progress in any linear fashion. The jerk is the highest percent missed lift in Olympic weightlifting and one of the most difficult to do with proper form. Partly because it is preceded by a heavy front squat from deep within the the hole. Unless you have a solid background in Oly lifting, or a good coach, you will likely be doing a jerk-press hybrid that will only cause your overall press strength to suffer. This is one of the points lifters brought up about Crossfit in the past, though at the high levels they have largely fixed it. The push-press is a better proxy for the press. However both are about speed-strength (power) not raw strength and have only a limited direct correlation to increasing the press. Lastly, I don't understand why would add the clean or jerk in unless your goal is to get good at cleaning and jerking. (Insert joke)

The program you laid out does not seem to have a clear goal. I agree with sam_i_am you should look for a solid program for an intermediate lifter and go from there.

arditarose

_dracarys_ wrote: »

After 15 months of SL I would be dying of boredom. I would look into other programs since you're essentially changing the entire SL program so much that it isn't even SL anymore.

Right? I did it for the past 2-3 months and I'm bored already.

DavPul

Those swaps are fine if that's what you want to do. You might do better with a different set and rep scheme for an explosive move like the clean and jerk tho.

DavPul

armylife wrote: »

I don't understand the rational or the exercise selection you are suggesting in this modification. If you are going to be running 5x5 with these lifts it is highly likely you are going to see diminished returns since each lift you chose is an auxiliary lift to the lift you are replacing. You will lose significant weight moving to front squats because the weak point is different from squats. Weighted pull ups are great, but do not allow for the same muscles to be targeted as rows, as @Sam_I_Am77 already said. Incline bench is a supporting lift to bench and uses nearly the same muscle groups while changing the angles and distance moved. This lengthens the "stroke" and places more emphasis on the front deltoid than pecs thereby lowering the weight you can move.

The clean and jerk is also not a substitute for the press. But first, what do you mean by clean? When I read that I think the full squat clean, Olympic style. When most people say it they mean power clean. The form differences and the differences in total weight you can move with each is significant and will go to the next few points. From the receive position the full clean is basically a front squat from the bottom position. However, there are variations since you do not actively engage in the eccentric portion of the squat. It also requires a good deal of time to develop the technique. At first, while weights are light, a lifter can ignore this fact and muscle through the lift. However, the failure point is stark and approaches quickly which makes the lift self limiting. Without the proper form you will not progress in any linear fashion. The jerk is the highest percent missed lift in Olympic weightlifting and one of the most difficult to do with proper form. Partly because it is preceded by a heavy front squat from deep within the the hole. Unless you have a solid background in Oly lifting, or a good coach, you will likely be doing a jerk-press hybrid that will only cause your overall press strength to suffer. This is one of the points lifters brought up about Crossfit in the past, though at the high levels they have largely fixed it. The push-press is a better proxy for the press. However both are about speed-strength (power) not raw strength and have only a limited direct correlation to increasing the press. Lastly, I don't understand why would add the clean or jerk in unless your goal is to get good at cleaning and jerking. (Insert joke)

The program you laid out does not seem to have a clear goal. I agree with sam_i_am you should look for a solid program for an intermediate lifter and go from there.

You're correct in everything you say but the thing is that your post presupposes that the main SL lifts are the only lifts or most important lifts to everyone in the world. Yes, she'll use less weight on front squats than on back squats, but......that doesn't matter? Like, at all? As long as the OP still lifts progressively, she'll improve where she wants to improve. And her swaps still leave her routine balanced (altho personally I'd add RDL to supplement the front squats)

McCloud33

LOL @Davpul not sure if you intended to call me a girl several times or not...

@Sam_I_Am77 @_dracarys_ @Full0fWin @Armylife maybe it is time for an intermediate program. As far as going to more of a hypertrophy vs strength program, will that even matter while I'm on a cut? I'm not going to be gaining any size on a calorie deficit.

As far as the whole clean and jerk convo, armylife, you're right that I was going more for a clean and push press.

Ultimately what it's come down to for me is that I like the three day/week lifting and the 45min-ish timeframe that doesn't leave me so energy depleted or sore that I can't do other things. I still run on my off lifting days, not necessarily for weight loss, but because I like running and I play volleyball, soccer, softball, whatever other team sport someone asks me to play. If there's an intermediate program out there that will still allow me to do the other things I love, and not take 1+ hours 3-5 days a week then I think I'd be open to it.

armylife

One of the variations of 5/3/1 might work, but with warm-ups it might give just over an hour. You might want to look into Beyond 5/3/1.

DavPul

Apologies @McCloud33. I'm on my mobile so the avatars are tiny and it's a PITY to check a profile on mobile.

But no matter. I would give that same advice to a grown man, a teenage male, a college cheerleader, or my grandmother

Sam_I_Am77

McCloud33 wrote: »

LOL @Davpul not sure if you intended to call me a girl several times or not...

@Sam_I_Am77 @_dracarys_ @Full0fWin @Armylife maybe it is time for an intermediate program. As far as going to more of a hypertrophy vs strength program, will that even matter while I'm on a cut? I'm not going to be gaining any size on a calorie deficit.

Why a hypertrophy versus strength program? The question really becomes, what is it that you want from your training? If you just want to get big and nothing else matters, then yes find a hypertrophy program. If you want to focus on strength then move into something like the Cube, 5/3/1, Juggernaut, etc. Somebody mentioned that now your neurological adaptation is done move on to hypertrophy; I hope that's not driving this comment because that's nonsense. You can still continue solid strength improvement through a more strength-oriented system. You probably hit your peak neurological adaptation a few weeks before the 15-week mark anyway.

It sounds like you play a lot of sports and that's important to you. A hypertrophy program is not the best for team-sports training. If you really want to focus on training to improve sports performance then you need a mix maximal strength, power, strength-endurance and core stability training.

psuLemon

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

Generally, if you are plateauing and maximized neurological adaptations i would switch to a hypertrophy style program.

Huh???

So it looks like most ppl that have commented are ok with the modification. I guess the next question would be are there different exercises that I could substitute besides the ones I suggested that would still be compound exercises.

I think most of the modifications are okay. I would still do some kind of rowing. Chin-ups are awesome but there is something about Rowing you don't get with Chin-ups. Perhaps it's just the added posterior deltoid, trapezius major, and rhomboid activation. Also, it's not unlikely that after 15-months you'll hit the same wall with these lifts, so what will you do at that point? Honestly, I would move on to a different program, one that can be used for a very long time. Something like the Cube Method, Strong360, or 5/3/1 are all great programs that you can use forever. They are more of a training-system versus a program like SL5x5.

What I meant by this comment, if you have plateau with strength gains, you generally need more volume. I don't see how maintaining how the same level of volume is going benefit the OP.

Personally, I think there is benefit to working both strength and hypertrophy.

hamlet1222

McCloud33 wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

My opinion is try it and see if you like it but don't call it SL5x5 unless you want to hear people tell you it's not SL5x5

I do 5/3/1. In the first book, Wendler says front squats are a fine sub for back squats. In his online FAQs, he's changed his mind and said they aren't. In the past I had a ton of trouble with back squats so I did them as my main squat using 5/3/1 anyway for five cycles. It worked great for me. No regrets. I think it's generally best to follow a program but you know yourself and your goals better than anybody else does and if you've put in a certain amount of training you can adjust exercises a bit.

Thanks @jemhh I won't call it SL5x5...haha. I do like the app though and thought I could still use it for this variation as long as I knew what 5 exercises I was doing to correspond.

Yep, there are a lot of purists on here. All the new exercises you describe are good compound lifts, I see no reason not to do them. I do pull-ups and incline bench myself and find them worthy additions to sl, I had to cut back on the squats and deadlifts to include them, but then it's my upper body that needs most of the work anyway.

Sam_I_Am77

psulemon wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

Generally, if you are plateauing and maximized neurological adaptations i would switch to a hypertrophy style program.

Huh???

So it looks like most ppl that have commented are ok with the modification. I guess the next question would be are there different exercises that I could substitute besides the ones I suggested that would still be compound exercises.

I think most of the modifications are okay. I would still do some kind of rowing. Chin-ups are awesome but there is something about Rowing you don't get with Chin-ups. Perhaps it's just the added posterior deltoid, trapezius major, and rhomboid activation. Also, it's not unlikely that after 15-months you'll hit the same wall with these lifts, so what will you do at that point? Honestly, I would move on to a different program, one that can be used for a very long time. Something like the Cube Method, Strong360, or 5/3/1 are all great programs that you can use forever. They are more of a training-system versus a program like SL5x5.

What I meant by this comment, if you have plateau with strength gains, you generally need more volume. I don't see how maintaining how the same level of volume is going benefit the OP.

Personally, I think there is benefit to working both strength and hypertrophy.

Some changes are needed for sure. When you hit a plateau you really need to change something and it can be different depending on the person. You have to look at your basic variables, Sets, Reps, Intensity, Tempo, Rest, Frequency, and then you have to look at your exercise selection and identify how your body is being trained.

Using the same exercises that SL presents is fine if that is what the user wants to continue training with, but they probably need to change the variables up and probably start to add some supporting exercises. A compound lift can be kept still and then a couple accessory movements to strengthen specific muscles within the compound lift. There are many ways to do something; Day 1 of a full-body template could possibly look like this,

Day 1 Focus - Full Body with Squat Max Strength & Upper Body Strength Endurance
a. Squat @ 5 sets of 5 at 70% | week 2 = 5 x 4 @ 80% | Week 3 = 5x3 @85% | Week 4=5x2 @ 90% | Week 5=5x1@95% - increase 10lbs and repeat
b1. Bench Press @ 3 x 10-12 @ 50% - 70%
b2. DB Flyes @ 3 x 12-20 (4/2/1 tempo)
c1. Barbell Row @ 3 x 10-12 @ 50-70%
c2. Face Pulls @ 3 x 12-20 (4/2/1 tempo)
d. Ab Wheel 1 - 3 x 12-20
<done>

There are many ways to look at how you periodize one's training, that's why there are so many training systems available. Wendler's Beyond 5/3/1 is great, Juggernaut from the little I know is really good, Brandon Lily's Cube Method and STrong360 are good; Lily actually introduces a "body-building" day into his system. Just think about what you want to accomplish and you'll figure it out.