New trainer & the Dreaded Smith Machine

squirrell79

So I've been doing Chalean Extreme (weights for rookies DVD program) at home and have been wanting to take it to the next level and learn about deadlifts, real squats, etc. After lots of online videos for form, I tried a few days ago ago and ended up posting about how a random guy approached me at the gym and suggested that I use the Smith Machine for my baby beginner deadlifts.

Fast forward to today: I signed up for a personal trainer special they were running at my gym. We had a our first meeting this morning, and in our initial chat where she asked about my background and goals. It went like this.

Me: This is what I've been doing [_summary_]. I'm here because I'd like to learn how to do barbell exercises without injuring myself.

Her: Ok. So are you wanting to do free weights? Are you wanting to do those [pointed at Nautilus-like machines across from our chairs]?

Me: [patiently] No, I want to learn how to deadlift, squat, and so forth.

Her: Ok, we'll start you on the Smith machine, just so you can learn form.

Me: [not wanting to offend her] Um, well everything I've read online says that isn't really a great idea.

Her: [looked very visibly agitated] Um, ok. I guess we can start you on free weights.

[I understand the agitation; the internet is surely the bane of doctors and other professionals everywhere--"But I read it on the internet so it MUST be true!"]

Me: Ok.

We walked up to the weights area.

Looking back, at this point, I would like to go back and kick myself hard in the a**. I TOTALLY chickened out. I thought, "Hey, everything you read on the internet isn't necessarily the greatest. She's a certified professional working at this very respectable hospital-affiliated gym. She must know something I don't."

Me: You know, if you think it's best, we can start on the machine.

Her: [visibly relieved] Ok, great. Don't worry, it will just be to start with so that you can learn form.

So I did a bunch of stuff on the Smith machine. I guess it wasn't that bad, but I really hope that we move on soon. I kind of feel like I should have stuck to my guns, but on the other hand, I also feel she, as the professional, ought to know more about this than I do. Right?

bokodasu

That's kind of weird. Learning form on the Smith machine is like trying to go from knee to regular pushups - it seems good in theory but you're not actually practicing the thing you're trying to learn so it doesn't work too well in the real world.

I don't think it means she's a bad trainer... but she might not be the right trainer for you. At my gym, most of the trainers cater to the "weights are scary/I don't want to get bulky/I'm over 70 and have special strength training needs" crowds, which is why I go somewhere else for my PT. I'd probably go for another few sessions, but if she's not on board with your goals then you need to find someone who is. There really is a huge variance, from "really crappy" to "really great", and even in the "really great" category there are people who are really great at different things, so it doesn't hurt to look around.

adopt321

It's good you gave it a chance but yeah, next time just tell her you're excited to learn to use the squat rack. i can see why you "chickened" out (i.e., she's a trainer, she's "supposed" to "know" more, blah, blah, blah, etc.), but I wouldn't discount what you've learned thus far even if it is on the internet. Maybe go in with a list of things you want to try that you've heard great things about (squats, deadlifts, etc.). I do use the Smith Machine for chest press - it's safe. Have fun!

squirrell79

Thanks, guys -- all excellent suggestions and I will keep them in mind going forward.

DopeItUp

I would have found a new trainer ASAP. Too bad you caved

phjorg1

practicing on the smith machine to learn squats is like playing madden video games to learn how to play football.

ilovedeadlifts

i learned to "squat" on a smith because it was all the gym had. it was a bad idea.

when i decided to learn to do real squats, I had to start over from square one.

ItsCasey

It's funny, I was just reading something Eric Cressey wrote about trainers who tell their clients with bad squat mobility to just do leg presses instead. He says that means "I'm lazy, and I suck at my job." I'd say the same is true of trainers who tell their clients to use the Smith machine to learn proper squat form.

cwolfman13

I've often found with trainers that you have to sometimes put your foot down. They tend to make all kinds of assumptions in my experience. With my wife, she said she wanted to do free weight because she intended to work out with me...but her trainer was hell bent on having her start with the machines, largely because he made the assumption that "this chick only thinks she wants to do free weights"..."she'll ultimately be doing the machines, so that's what I'm going to start her on." My wife really had to put her foot down and say...I want to do Olympic barbell lifts, period...then he had to cave.

MG_Fit

To be honest OP, I see a couple of "personal trainers" around my gym and I'm really wondering two things.

How much do these guys make?
How did they convince these people they're personal trainers?

There is this one guy who has 2 different girls (on different days) do the exact same routine. The girls have different body types and are at different places in their fitness level. He has them lift 5# weights, do some cardio, core and mobility stuff for about an hour. Now I'm no professional and my for is likely not on key, but I think "WTH is this guy doing with these girls other than collecting money from them?" It's sad really, I want to just tell them to fire him and go to BB.com and do some reading. Or friend a couple of the girls on my FL and ask their advice. Not only do I not understand his program for them, but his form is HORRID!

Gah >.<

murphy612

I've only used the Smith Machine once, all the squat racks were taken and my trainer said well we'll just use this for a minute. I hated it, it just felt ...... wrong. I'm glad I didn't learn to squat with it in the beginning because I have a feeling I'd have to relearn squatting. It really is different and I'm not a "machine basher" it just didn't feel right.

Stick to your guns your next session. I understand learning form first, but I did that with body weight squats, wall squats, box squats and even using the Swiss ball up against the wall. You don't have to learn form from the smith machine and you can say no.

Good luck!!

GetSoda

I don't want to say you can't learn form on the smith machine


but.



You will have to go through learning form from the ground up when you switch to free weights.



So.


And keep in mind, most personal trainers at chain gyms are like "chefs" at Mcdonalds.

Calliope610

Considering that all you have to do to become a "certified personal trainer" is complete some online coursework, I would rather put my stock in video tutorials by Rippetoe and other experienced, accomplished coaches.

cwolfman13

To be honest OP, I see a couple of "personal trainers" around my gym and I'm really wondering two things.

How much do these guys make?
How did they convince these people they're personal trainers?

1 - not much

2 - on-line study and test; there really isn't much to it.

There are good ones and bad ones though. Some are very knowledgeable and passionate about what they do and research and study far beyond what is required to pass the silly test...others are just there to make a few bucks, show off their muscles, and maybe hook it up with a cardio bunny or two.

mikejholmes

[snip]but on the other hand, I also feel she, as the professional, ought to know more about this than I do. Right?

You're right. She ought to.
But she clearly doesn't.
:flowerforyou:

MikeDasTrainer

I can honestly say I've only used the smith machine for my rehab clients or for recline rows. At the basic level, I give my clinets an unloaded dowel and have them work with only their body weight and the stick as a guide. When you're working with weights for major lifts your small stabilizing muscles will be the limiting factors. As you work on the smith you're mainly only training the major movers of the lift. Personal opinion.

Wait, check that, I have used the smith machine to teach the initial pull of olympic lifts to get clients used to having the bar tarvel vertically as opposed to anteriorly. However, this phase does not usually last long.

ndj1979

To be honest OP, I see a couple of "personal trainers" around my gym and I'm really wondering two things.

How much do these guys make?
How did they convince these people they're personal trainers?

1 - not much

2 - on-line study and test; there really isn't much to it.

There are good ones and bad ones though. Some are very knowledgeable and passionate about what they do and research and study far beyond what is required to pass the silly test...others are just there to make a few bucks, show off their muscles, and maybe hook it up with a cardio bunny or two.

I tend to agree with this...the trainers at my gym never ake the people they are training anywhere near the power rack for squats or deads...strange...

As far as the smith machine it is not really good for squats or deads because it does not work stabilizer muscles. Whenever I have to squat in a smith machine, I feel like there is way too much pressure on my knees. Also, I do not think you can learn proper barbell squat form in a smith machine because it tends to keep weight too much forward and keeps you a bit too upright - Just my opinion but would be interested to read some thoughts on this..

And yes, get a new trainer...or tell the one you have to ditch the smith and head to the power rack...

JustJennie1

To be honest OP, I see a couple of "personal trainers" around my gym and I'm really wondering two things.

How much do these guys make?
How did they convince these people they're personal trainers?

1 - not much

2 - on-line study and test; there really isn't much to it.

There are good ones and bad ones though. Some are very knowledgeable and passionate about what they do and research and study far beyond what is required to pass the silly test...others are just there to make a few bucks, show off their muscles, and maybe hook it up with a cardio bunny or two.

'

Yup Anyone can go online and become a personal trainer. Awesome huh?

CoachDreesTraining

The smith machine isn't the worst thing to teach people how to squat. I would use a foam roller or stability ball against the wall instead, but it allows the client to 'feel' their hips release oppose to squatting out front on their toes like most people do.

I don't see anything wrong with this as long as she was only using it as a teaching tool to progress into a goblet squat or barbell squat, once you learned the movement.

joleenl

Bump! As my trainer (a pro-body builder that competes regularily) recommends to start on the smith machine too. So I am interested in the responses.

bohemiangrooves

My trainer was excited to get me into squats and deadlifts, but he coached me (or my body really) for weeks ahead of time to be ready. So instead of back squats on the rack i started with goblets holding a dumbbell, then progressed to front squats a few weeks later, then a few weeks later went to back squats. same idea with deadlifts. when the time came for those two big exercises, i had no fear of the weight or apparatus, it was just about fine tuning the positioning and motions. In short, a good trainer won't put you on a machine, a good trainer will start training your body properly to be prepared for the bigger motions.

Joocey

It also depends a little bit on what kind of smith machine we're talking about.

There are those with a slight incline/decline which make no sense. The ones that are straight up and down which are a little better... but I've used a smith machine that allowed for some front/back movement as well which made doing squats on them... weird, but passable.

I don't know how a smith machine would work for deadlifts though.

Joocey

Addendum to my above post:

It was one of THESE THINGS:

squirrell79

I've often found with trainers that you have to sometimes put your foot down. They tend to make all kinds of assumptions in my experience. With my wife, she said she wanted to do free weight because she intended to work out with me...but her trainer was hell bent on having her start with the machines, largely because he made the assumption that "this chick only thinks she wants to do free weights"..."she'll ultimately be doing the machines, so that's what I'm going to start her on." My wife really had to put her foot down and say...I want to do Olympic barbell lifts, period...then he had to cave.

That's awesome that your wife was assertive; it's definitely something I need to work on. Sigh.....

Am enjoying the responses here...she knows I am not wanting to shilly-shally on this machine and we only have five total sessions, so hopefully things will progress apace.

JNick77

You can't really learn form on a Smith Machine because you don't learn how to balance the weight and the bar path isn't going to be perfectly up and down, AND you won't be able to set up correctly. How the hell do you deadlift on a smith machine? ugh... Stand strong... Your trainer's response leads me to believe they really don't know how to teach good form.

dare2love81

i learned to "squat" on a smith because it was all the gym had. it was a bad idea.

when i decided to learn to do real squats, I had to start over from square one.

^^This

billsica

I've never used a smith machine. I see tons of girls at my gym doing real squats. the only thing that gets done is some college bros put a bench in there, or you can use to for pull ups. Mostly I think the smith machine is great to do pull ups on, or possibly lean against between sets.

Ask them to get you on just a barbell, or find a trainer who will.

BeachIron

And this. This right here is why I stopped trying to work with trainers. I never met a one who could teach a squat or deadlift without instantly wanting to go to the smith.

My next step is to leave the commercial gym and it's "no chalk" and other B.S. rules altogether, and find a powerlifting gym. Or just build my own in a garage. So much damn focus on doing things wrong so it's "easy" rather just teaching people how to do it right from the beginning.

bokchoybaby

I had my first session with my trainer last Saturday. We didn't work on any lifts, though. Mostly talked about my goals, her experience and I did her fitness assessment so she could have an idea as to where I am currently (first session was free so I didn't pay for this). She seemed to be cool with the fact that I didn't want to use the Smith machine for squats but I must admit I already had my mini speech prepared as to why I preferred not to use the machine since I know some people really like to push it. Sometimes it helps me to be more assertive with people if I already have talking points in my head. You should just keep in mind that she's working for you. Yes, you'd like to have a good relationship with her, but at the end of the day you really need a trainer you can speak to so you may have to keep searching to find one you mesh well with.

joleenl

Yahoo. I talked to my trainer no more smith machine!

BonaFideUK

I dont know how you can "learn" form from a smith machine. Free weight barbell squats and SM squats are like night and day.