Lots of running questions...

mom3over40
mom3over40 Posts: 253 Member
edited November 2024 in Fitness and Exercise
In September, I posted a question about preparing for our first half-marathon. Thanks to all the advice and encouragement, we started to implement some of the changes. Along the way, new questions came up, it's a long post but any of your input would be appreciate!

Background
- Started C25k around Sept 2014
- Ran my first 5k on Thanksgiving Day that year in 31:02
- PR is 26:04 in June and got the same time again in Nov
- First half marathon coming up in March
We have started to increase our mileage as advised. We try to run 3 to 4 times a week. Our longest run was a 9-miler just before Thanksgiving. After a 5k race on Thanksgiving day, we took a break, hiked more miles but has been struggling to get back into consistent running again. Ran 16 miles the week after thanksgiving and only 11 last week. I look up today and the HM is getting closer and we really need to get back on track…

1. Building my mileage
Since I have already reached the 15-17 MPW consistency before thanksgiving. Would it be rather safe for me to jump back into that weekly range even though I only ran 11 miles last week? Reading from other threads, these is my rough plan:

wk 0: R, 6*, R, 3, 5, 3 [ 17 ] (*That’s this past Monday)
wk 1: R, 7, R, 5, 6, 3 [ 21 ]
wk 2: R, 8, R, 5, 6, 3 [ 22 ]
wk 3: R, 6, R, 5, 3, 6, 3 [ 23 ]
wk 4: R, 8, R, 5, 3, 6, 3 [ 25 ]
wk 5: R, 9, R, 5, 4, 6, 3 [ 27 ]
wk 6: R, 10, R, 6, 4, 6, 3 [ 29 ]
wk 7: R, 11, R, 6, 5, 6, 3 [ 31 ]
wk 8: R, 9, R, 6, 6, 6, 3 [ 30 ]
wk 9: R, 11, R, 6, 6, 6, 3 [ 32 ]
wk 10: R, 12, R, 6, 6, 6, 3 [ 33 ]
wk 11: R, 13, R, ?, ?, ?, 5k[ ?? ]
wk 12: R, 10, R, ?, ?, ?, 3 [ ?? ]
wk 13: HM

2. How best should I “change” my HM training plan to race the 5k in wk 12?
I really would like to see if I can set a new PR in that 5k. In my most recent 5k race in November, I finished feeling like I didn’t run as hard as I had run in June. So, I think I need to run at least a few times in a faster pace to get myself used to the feeling of running fast before the race. Any suggestion on how best to implement it with a HM in the following week?

3. Is this Bonking?
During my 9-mile run, my hamstring started to hurt when I was about to reach 8th mile. So, I finished the last mile walking some and jogging some. It didn’t hurt when I was walking, felt tight when I jogged. Then it hurts like DOMS the 2 days after. I missed one of the low mileage run that week, so, I guess it could be the reason. If so, should I have postponed the long run until the low mileage runs were done? Or, would it have anything to do with refueling? Or, is there something else that I should watch out for?

4. Does what you eat affect your performance?
Do you find eating certain food before your run affect how you feel when you run? Someone once said eating ice-cream before the race will negatively affect a person’s performance. Is that true?

5. Long runs: training by mileage? Or, by time?
In one of the Jack Daniel’s video on easy run, he said that the benefit of easy run training is a function of time, not distance. So, if my conversational pace is, say 12 min/mi and I run 5 miles (60 mins) will do the same as, if someone’s conversational pace is, say 10 min/mi and running 6 miles (60 mins), is that right? So, if I am not training for a HM, should I target my long run based on time?

6. How likely will I be able to run 5k in under 23 mins eventually? If yes, how to train? And what is a reasonable time frame to get to that pace?
I just really want to get into top 3 for the medal for my age group, I’m 44 now :)

Replies

  • stealthq
    stealthq Posts: 4,298 Member
    edited December 2015
    FYI - I don't race, but I completed half-marathon training last year and am 2/3 of the way through marathon training.

    1. Would it be rather safe for me to jump back into that weekly range even though I only ran 11 miles last week? I would say yes. One week at lower mileage won't have hurt your fitness level.

    2. How best should I “change” my HM training plan to race the 5k in wk 12? Take a look at Hal Higdon's half marathon training plan on his website. He's got a plan to race a 5k in there. I don't race so I can't give more tips than that.

    3. Is this Bonking? Nope. That sounds like a muscle that you've not been stretching and foam rolling enough. It was too tight, you put too much stress on it, and probably ended up with a minor strain. Bonking is what happens when you run out of ready fuel. I've not experienced it yet, even after 15 mi runs and I haven't started taking nutrition while running as of yet.

    4. Does what you eat affect your performance? Yes. Anything that causes you discomfort from gas, from heartburn, from intestinal distress, even just feeling 'heavy' in your gut, etc is going to slow you down. What causes you a problem is going to be individual to you. Which is why this may be true for some, but not others: Someone once said eating ice-cream before the race will negatively affect a person’s performance. Also, for best performance, you'll want your glycogen levels topped off.

    5. How likely will I be able to run 5k in under 23 mins eventually? I'd say reasonably likely. If yes, how to train? First, long, slow distance to build up aerobic base. After that, add in specific speed work including hill runs, fartleks, pace runs, etc. Add those in gradually like you do the distance. Speed work is a different kind of stress than long runs - easy to injure yourself by doing too much, too fast. And what is a reasonable time frame to get to that pace? To drop a little over three minutes off of your 5K pace? Depends on your current base and how hard and consistently you work at it. It sounds like you need to build a good amount of weekly mileage before adding speedwork. It took me several months to build to consistent 30+ mile weeks from where you are. As a complete and total stab in the dark, I'd say a year of consistent work is reasonable.
  • scorpio516
    scorpio516 Posts: 955 Member
    1. Building my mileage
    That seems reasonable to me

    2. How best should I “change” my HM training plan to race the 5k in wk 12?
    I wouldn't change anything. Contrary to what a lot of people say here, mpw is directly related to finishing time. 10+ weeks of 20+ miles will get you a pretty fast 5k. Don't push too hard though, it's not your A race the next week...

    3. Is this Bonking?
    No. Could be a bunch of other things, but it's not bonking. Bonking is when you run out of fuel and it feels like your shoes weigh 100 lbs ;) .

    4. Does what you eat affect your performance?
    Yes. What you eat directly before a race matters, and your diet matters.


    5. Long runs: training by mileage? Or, by time?
    I'm on the fence on this one. I've done both and the results haven't changed

    6. How likely will I be able to run 5k in under 23 mins eventually? If yes, how to train? And what is a reasonable time frame to get to that pace?
    It depends. All things being equal, it's a 100% possibility. How to train? MPW. I would not be surprised if you'd hit your goal in week 12. You are only talking 1:00 per mile, and in the scheme of things, 8:40 to 7:40 isn't that big of a jump
  • McCloud33
    McCloud33 Posts: 959 Member
    I agree with what's already been posted here for the most part. I'd only add that if you are trying to speed up your 5k, then do some speed work intervals. That in combination with your long distance running will get you where you want to go.

    As far as the long distance running being distance or time, personally I tend to go for time just because, well, my time is precious and I'd rather run 5 miles in <40 min instead of spending 60+. It also keeps me used to running faster.
  • mom3over40
    mom3over40 Posts: 253 Member
    Thanks for all of your input! I really appreciate it.

    For Bonking, it is good to hear from others what it was supposed to feel like. Thanks. I guess I am also indecisive whether to try out the Gu sample or not. The running store gave me the sample saying that I probably would need it at 7th mile. But here many others never need to use it for HM. And the most discomfort of long run I experienced was the hamstring pain. But then, I haven't run past 9 miles yet.

    #5. Long Runs I guess my question is that, in order to reap the benefits of long runs, is it better to set our goal of weekly long run to, say running 10 miles or running 2 hours? These would be the same for a pace of 12 min/mi but with different physique, a 10-mile run could easy means a 30 mins difference in running time.

    #6. Thanks a lot for the encouragement! Hope keeps me motivated :)
  • mbaker566
    mbaker566 Posts: 11,233 Member
    as for Gu
    I am a fan. I can certainly do a 10k fasted, but I've started using it on certain days.
    I take half when i start and half at my half way point on one of my 10ks for the week. The other I run fasted.

    I take a packet with me and eat half another packet before i start my long runs. I take half a pack at between each 3-4 mile mark. I can generally see the difference in my time, though not necessarily how i feel.

    as for running goals that is really dependent on what you want. I started with time but have moved over to distance and try to improve my pace. the most I've run though is 13.17. and that took me 2:55:00 and I'm newer. At first, i was just worried about running for a certain amount of time. Now I want to keep running for a certain distance. or try to improve my pace (depends on the run)
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    edited December 2015
    Q: Since I have already reached the 15-17 MPW consistency before thanksgiving. Would it be rather safe for me to jump back into that weekly range even though I only ran 11 miles last week?

    Since you already ran the weekly mileage, it should be much easier to get back to it than when you first were trying to attempt that distance for the first time. However, you still don't want to just jump into your former weekly mileage right away. You still need to build up to it. You can just be more aggressive about it the second or third time around.

    Your body will tell you if you are over doing it.



    Q: How best should I “change” my HM training plan to race the 5k in wk 12?

    HM training plans help you build the mileage up that you prepare you for a HM.
    You really don't have to modify it to improve your 5K time. Running more distance is great even for shorter race distances because you are building your aerobic base.

    With that said, if you wanted to freeze your weekly mileage; then there are some things you could do that are 5K race distance specific (like tempos and intervals, or repeats). However, given that you are 15 months into your running "career", you could still benefit from just building up your mileage. So since you are still running the HM, you should focus on that HM.



    Q: Is this Bonking?

    Bonking has a very specific meaning (despite people abusing the term). Bonking means that your body has significally exhausted it's glycogen stores. When this happens, the brain puts a halt on all muscular activity in order to preserve the blood glucose to support brain activity and other vital functions. If you truly bonked, you would not be able to run, even though you felt no physical injury. You may be lightheaded or dizzy, would have trouble figuring out very basic thoughts (like what is 2+2?)

    What you describe sounds more like lactate issues. The hurt you feel as you are running could be related to the acidity levels rising due to lactate and H+ accumulation in the muscle. This is caused when you are exerting too hard of a pace than your aerobic system can tolerate. if this is the case, then running more miles will help in both 5K and HM.

    The pain you felt 2 days afterwards is most likely DOMS.

    Another thing, were there any hills on your race that you were not used to? That would do the same thing as well. If that is true, run more hills on your training runs.


    Q: Does what you eat affect your performance?

    yes and no. For a 5K, diet and what you eat beforehand has less influence on race performance than say the marathon. I run fasted and feel fine on shorter runs. Your body has many different ways to provide you the energy you need to exercise. The longer the distance you run, the less variety of ways your body can supply you energy. Some systems provide energy less efficiently than other ways.

    The most optimum way your body can supply you immediate energy is blood glucose and muscle glycogen. Once these drop, then your body resorts to liver glycogen and breaking down of fat in the andipose cells. Fatty acid metabolism takes longer to provide energy which thus effects your performance.

    If you have a normal healthy diet in the days and night before leading into the race, then what you eat just before a smaller 5K race becomes less important. This assumes you have a pretty decent level of glycogen to supply you enough energy for the 5K and what you ate doesn't upset your GI.

    Now ice cream would not be the best thing to eat, but would it actually hurt your race?
    Well ice cream has a small amount of protein, and more fat and carbs (sugar). Because of the fat content, your body is going to take more time to digest this and the added dietary fat content will not help you in the race. So not ideal. So eating ice cream just before a race could hurt you, because chances are, you will not digest it in time and may wreck havoc on your GI with very little benefit from the fat calories. A small meal mostly hi-glycemic index carbs would be better. About 20 g of carbs for every hour before the race. So if you eat something 2 hours before the race, have 40 grams of carbs.


    Q: Long runs: training by mileage? Or, by time?

    You can go by either. It goes by preference and your goals.

    What Daniels is saying is that the more you run at an easy pace the more benefit to your aerobic system. You could take this as: I need to run for a longer amount of time. Or... you could say, i need to build my mileage but at a conversational pace. This second setence says the same thing as the first, because it would take you more time to run the further distance.

    A lot of people perefer to mark their runs by time rather than distance because it relaxes them to actually run a slower pace. A lot of times, when we have a set distance in mind, you are determined to get that distance done in a shorter time, which could make you run a pace faster than you intended. However, if you say instead, I am going to run for an hour, then you would more likely run it at the appropriate pace because it will take you the same amount of time to run that workout no matter what pace you run it at.



    Q: How likely will I be able to run 5k in under 23 mins eventually? If yes, how to train? And what is a reasonable time frame to get to that pace?

    This is very difficult to say. 23 minutes is a very attainable goal. How long will it take? Hard to say. Staying consistent with your runs and staying injury free are going to be the 2 best things to hope for.

    Building up your aerobic conditioning and moving your lactate threshold to the right will help the most. I would get done with your HM training. After your HM race, maintain that peak mileage (assuming you do your reverse taper after the race). Once you have that HM peak training frozen (in terms of miles per week), then throw in a tempo workout once a week and throw in short intervals or strides once a week. You could also every other week replace your short intervals/strides with hill sprints. Do this for 6 months and watch your 5K time drop.






  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    mom3over40 wrote: »
    #5. Long Runs I guess my question is that, in order to reap the benefits of long runs, is it better to set our goal of weekly long run to, say running 10 miles or running 2 hours? These would be the same for a pace of 12 min/mi but with different physique, a 10-mile run could easy means a 30 mins difference in running time.

    Either way works if the time is reasonably calculated to your running speed. For something specific like training for a particular running distance, I'd tend to prefer miles (although with marathon training it gets more complicated because if you run too long in training you can take too long to recover, which is why lots of newbie plans cap at 18 or I've even seen 16, although the one I did went to 20). For triathlon often it's time, because you are training also for a certain endurance time.

    Anyway, I like miles for half marathon training.

    I don't use Gu for a half marathon, but I'd say try it and see if it helps. You need to train with it before using it in a race, as you never know what might upset your stomach.

    On the other questions, what everyone else said. You have time and I'm sure will do great. You could add in a speed training day per week, but at first just increasing weekly miles is going to naturally increase your speed too. I do find that if I do speed intervals on the treadmill on occasion (the only thing I like a treadmill for), I get used to the feel of going faster and tend to run a bit fast in my next easy outdoor run.
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    You have gotten a lot of good answers to your questions, so I am not going to repeat what has already been said, but I do want to comment on your question about the 23 minute 5K. I just wanted to point out that increases in speed are not typically linear. It will take less time to go from a 10 min mile to a 9 min mile than it will take to go from a 9 min mile to an 8 min mile and so on. As you get closer to your goal, you will likely notice that it takes longer to notice increases in your speed. Just something to keep in mind.

  • mom3over40
    mom3over40 Posts: 253 Member
    Thanks for all of your input, really appreciate them!

    @moyer566 You definitely make the Gu more attractive than the people at the store who gave me the sample :wink: Thanks! As for running goals, I am the other way around: I had been targeting a distance until I saw that video and thought maybe I should target a time instead.

    @Stoshew71 Thanks again. You are always so informative! As for building the mileage, I guess I know what you mean by "Your body will tell you" I ran another 6 miles on Wednesday night and my legs (hamstrings again) are sore. :sweat_smile:
    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    Another thing, were there any hills on your race that you were not used to? That would do the same thing as well. If that is true, run more hills on your training runs. [/b/]
    The HM will have a climb of almost 300 feet over 2 to 3 miles, the rest seems pretty flat. I do try to run a climb of about that size over two miles in my neighborhood with a little more ups and downs in the rest of my route. I hope that's enough for my training for the HM....
    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    A lot of people prefer to mark their runs by time rather than distance because it relaxes them to actually run a slower pace. A lot of times, when we have a set distance in mind, you are determined to get that distance done in a shorter time, which could make you run a pace faster than you intended.
    I think this is certainly true for me. Especially in the last mile, I always think "let's get this over with". I guess it takes some discipline for me to stay in conversational pace.
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Anyway, I like miles for half marathon training.
    Yes, I think I should stick with the mileage for the HM training. I do need to cover enough mileage to feel ready... I am also thinking about after the HM, it might make some sense to cover the time since that will kind of automatically adjust the distance with my fitness level. I supposed, if I stay consistent, I might be running a conversational pace faster eventually and I will automatically running more distance with the same time. Or, if I slacked in my running, I will also be running less distance with the same time and not over exert myself.
    lporter229 wrote: »
    I just wanted to point out that increases in speed are not typically linear. It will take less time to go from a 10 min mile to a 9 min mile than it will take to go from a 9 min mile to an 8 min mile and so on. As you get closer to your goal, you will likely notice that it takes longer to notice increases in your speed. Just something to keep in mind.
    Thanks for the reminder. Shaving off the first few minutes in my 5Ks was certainly easy and even unexpected. It is good for me to remember it wouldn't be the same for the next few.

    Thanks again for everyone's input!
  • mbaker566
    mbaker566 Posts: 11,233 Member
    @Momf3boys I use the chomps (gum drops)
    while the flavors sound good. i think gumdrops are easier to deal with than the actual Gu
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    moyer566 wrote: »
    @Momf3boys I use the chomps (gum drops)
    while the flavors sound good. i think gumdrops are easier to deal with than the actual Gu

    This reminded me of a funny story. I don't usually do gus and have never taken them in a race. I usually stick to fruit chews and sometimes Shot Bloks. During my last marathon I was a little worried I might need some extra fuel at the end so I figured I would grab a gu from the aid station just in case. Well, I never realized that they openthem for you. So it was around mile 18 when I grabbed the gu and realized it was open. I didn't want to throw it on the ground (my brain was in another place, so don't laugh) so I proceeded to run with the open gu in my hand for the remainder of the race. As you can imagine, it was a sticky mess. Of course, I hardly noticed until I crossed the finish line with gunk all over my hands. The finish line pictures are funny because you can see me holding this gu as I am running!
  • mom3over40
    mom3over40 Posts: 253 Member
    moyer566 wrote: »
    I use the chomps (gum drops)
    while the flavors sound good. i think gumdrops are easier to deal with than the actual Gu
    Now I get how you can have half of the packs... I was thinking how sticky is the Gu that it wouldn't spill all over like @lporter229 described.

    I am also thinking if I should just get some sports drink instead. I carry two bottles of water with me anyways and I could just use one of them for sports drink. It might be easier to deal with.
  • mbaker566
    mbaker566 Posts: 11,233 Member
    you could though i have found the regulars-gatorade, powerade, w/e- to be very hard on my stomach even after my stomach's done jiggling around.
    i find sipping water to be easier(and that's the only time, because my stomach and plain water do not get along)
    I've heard some people dilute a gatorade. or there are tablets you can add to the water

    @LLduds @mom3over40 that is why i go with solid products. I might try the jelly belly sports beans tomorrow. since speed is less of a thing for me on the long run. just need to get to the finish line
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
    mom3over40 wrote: »
    moyer566 wrote: »
    I use the chomps (gum drops)
    while the flavors sound good. i think gumdrops are easier to deal with than the actual Gu
    Now I get how you can have half of the packs... I was thinking how sticky is the Gu that it wouldn't spill all over like @lporter229 described.

    I am also thinking if I should just get some sports drink instead. I carry two bottles of water with me anyways and I could just use one of them for sports drink. It might be easier to deal with.

    The advantage of GU Chomps is you can count pieces for finer control of what you're eating. The disadvantage is, they're chewy. I found them to dry and impractical on a training run, then tried Sport Beans. Sport Beans worked fine in training, but were mechanically too clumsy for me in a race, and also a bit dry at race pace. So I went to gels, and practiced opening and consuming them on the run in training. Then there's size; I carried 7 GUs with me at the Buffalo Marathon; there's no way I could have carried 7 packets of Sport Beans.

    Pro tip from a multiple-ironman guy I ran with: Put the GU inside your glove, and don't take it out till you're ready to use it. That way it stays malleable and usable in cold weather. Then after you take the GU, put the next one in your glove to warm up.

    My own observation: Some GU flavors taste good, and a lot of them taste so-so or awful; but there is much disagreement on which ones are which. All of them taste a whole lot better 5 or 10 miles into a run when my body really needs one than they do 15 minutes before the race. Some are so awful 15 before that I went to using Sport Beans 15 before and GU during the race. Later, I found Clif Shot Gels work as well for me as GU, and the litter minder tab makes it easier to not litter while running.

    Your mileage may vary. What works well with the digestive system, and particularly what tastes good or even tastes acceptable, varies a lot from one runner to the next.

    Separate bottles for water and electrolytes is a common practice. After Buffalo, I started putting Nuun in one of my bottles and water in the other. So far, this has worked well for training and for races including 3 half marathons. It won't be enough for a full marathon, but I have 4 months to think about what I will do about that.
This discussion has been closed.