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Muscle Strength vs. Muscle Endurance Exercises

kaylajane11

I have been curious about this for a while and haven't been able to find a clear answer by searching the forums. I understand that in order to build strength, you should perform high weight/low rep lifts, while low weight/high rep exercises do not increase strength much, but increase muscle endurance.

I have been lifting heavy for almost two years now and I love it. I also do a boot camp class three times a week, which involves low weight/high rep exercises, interval training, calisthenics, etc. In my own fitness regime, I consider this to be cardio. I love it as much as I love lifting, and understand that I am likely not gaining any strength from it, although my endurance is greatly improved.

I get confused when thinking about maintaining muscle in a cut (or recomp for that matter). Although I get that you wouldn't build strength through muscle endurance training, could you maintain your current muscle mass by training with 5-10 pound weights, resistance bands, and body weight exercises, so long as your are hitting your protein target?

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around the difference between high weight/low rep and low weight/high rep, besides strength gains. For the record, this question is strictly curiosity based; I have no intention of giving up heavy lifting.

Replies

DopeItUp

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

jemhh

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Do you do any assistance during a cut or just the main lifts?

boomshakalaka911

I lift the same as I do on a bulk. Don't change anything. The intensity may be lower though do to the loss in strength associated with lower kcals.

Don't make it more complicated than it should be.

boomshakalaka911

jemhh wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Do you do any assistance during a cut or just the main lifts?

You should always do assistance work

DopeItUp

jemhh wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Do you do any assistance during a cut or just the main lifts?

Main lifts and a few basic assistance exercises.

For example, I'll cut down from 4 days a week to 2 days a week when cutting.

Day 1:
Squat
Bench
Row
Something dumb like abs

Day 2:
DL
OHP
Pull-ups
Something else simple and wussy

I'll just do sets of 5, using near 5RM weight (subtracting say ~10-15lbs from my max). It has been hugely effective for me while cutting. Previous cuts always resulted in loss of strength, whether short-term or long-term cuts.

jemhh

DopeItUp wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Do you do any assistance during a cut or just the main lifts?

Main lifts and a few basic assistance exercises.

For example, I'll cut down from 4 days a week to 2 days a week when cutting.

Day 1:
Squat
Bench
Row
Something dumb like abs

Day 2:
DL
OHP
Pull-ups
Something else simple and wussy

I'll just do sets of 5, using near 5RM weight (subtracting say ~10-15lbs from my max). It has been hugely effective for me while cutting. Previous cuts always resulted in loss of strength, whether short-term or long-term cuts.

Thanks for posting that. My attempts at cutting earlier this year have been frustrating due to loss of strength. I am just starting one now and simplified greatly. (I think you do 5/3/1 too, right?) I'm doing:

Day 1
Bench (superset with rows)
Squat
Press (FSL 3x6-8)
Deadlift (FSL 3x6-8)

Day 2
Press (superset with lat pulldowns)
Deadlift
Bench (FSL 3x6-8)
Squat (FSL 3x6-8)

In the past I kept up with a full 4 day program. I'm hoping that this, with a couple of conditioning and lighter walking days will be a bit more sustainable/less frustrating.

ChampCrucial

Your in a gray area where it would be hard to say. I'll explain below but my clear answer to you is Yes. You could even build a little more. I am a trainer and I have tried this as well. I gained strength and muscle adding reps until I got to 10 and finding a way to make an exercise harder.

With focusing more on bodyweight you work your stabilizers and have a good base to go off of. The more stable you are, the more weight you can use usually. Muscle comes with HARD reps, or where there is a challenge. If push ups are never hard for you then you may lose some muscle and strength. If you go to incline push ups, banded push ups, or even explosive push ups BAM they are harder and your more likely to maintain if not build muscle and strength. It is classic adaption. When you work with a load you work to master it. Strength, power, muscle, endurance is the order of how things should go but all can happen at once. Strength is how much you can lift regardless of speed which is your struggle. Power comes when you can move that weight fast even if it is for that one rep. Muscle comes when you start getting more reps in. Endurance when you can just lift it until you get bored.

Resistance bands don't rely on gravity and strengthen your muscles where weights would slack due to gravity such as the top portion of a curl. So, you may find yourself stronger on the curl since you worked with constant tension. But again it has to be hard. If your working with a resistance band that feels half as hard as the weights then you may lose more muscle and strength than usual.

Lastly, you want to lift the weight fast and lower slowly. This promotes power and targets more of the fast twitch fibers that you trigger in heavier and/or faster lifts. AS most trainers and people will tell you. Fast and explosive for short duration = sprinter. In addition lowering the weight slow will increase your time under tension making more muscle as well as increasing tendon strength and decreasing sheering force to help to decrease injury risk.

kaylajane11

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Thank you for the response. This makes a lot of sense.

DopeItUp

jemhh wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

jemhh wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

Most experts tend to suggest high intensity weight training for OPTIMAL muscle/strength retention during a cut. This means heavy weights. In my own experimentation I have found this to be true. I cut frequency and volume severely during a cut but keep the weights very heavy (very near max-effort). I have recently managed to cut 40lbs and my main lifts stayed the same. In fact I gained very slightly on my squat and deadlift (probably due to losing body weight).

Lyle McDonald article about this very topic: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/

Layne Norton has said similar things, along with other prominent folks that I can't think of right now.

That's not to say that doing light weights while cutting won't be useful (certain more useful than doing nothing), just not optimal.

Do you do any assistance during a cut or just the main lifts?

Main lifts and a few basic assistance exercises.

For example, I'll cut down from 4 days a week to 2 days a week when cutting.

Day 1:
Squat
Bench
Row
Something dumb like abs

Day 2:
DL
OHP
Pull-ups
Something else simple and wussy

I'll just do sets of 5, using near 5RM weight (subtracting say ~10-15lbs from my max). It has been hugely effective for me while cutting. Previous cuts always resulted in loss of strength, whether short-term or long-term cuts.

Thanks for posting that. My attempts at cutting earlier this year have been frustrating due to loss of strength. I am just starting one now and simplified greatly. (I think you do 5/3/1 too, right?) I'm doing:

Day 1
Bench (superset with rows)
Squat
Press (FSL 3x6-8)
Deadlift (FSL 3x6-8)

Day 2
Press (superset with lat pulldowns)
Deadlift
Bench (FSL 3x6-8)
Squat (FSL 3x6-8)

In the past I kept up with a full 4 day program. I'm hoping that this, with a couple of conditioning and lighter walking days will be a bit more sustainable/less frustrating.

Correct, I do 5/3/1 as well and yes, I have tried maintaining my program (same as maintenance/bulk) while cutting and it has always crashed hard. I lost enough off of my bench one cut, that it took me the rest of the year to get back to where I was. In comparison, this year, I'm 15lbs lighter and my bench is 20lbs higher. That's a huge difference at this level.

You'll have to try your program to find out if it's gonna work for you but it looks like a good start. I'm not sure if I'd try to deadlift twice a week (I do see that one of the days is a lighter one, for each lift) on a cut but I'm a pretty large male and my deadlift is pretty heavy so it's not really an equal comparison. Don't be afraid to go minimalist if needed (or at least try it). I think Lyle said you can cut volume by something like 75% before you start running into issues. Definitely true for me, I'm literally only doing one heavy set of ~5 (for something like deadlifts) for the entire week. But it's a near max effort set. And I went from 455x5 to 465x5 after cutting the 40lbs, so it's not just a theory from some quacks. These guys know what they're talking about.

kaylajane11

boomshakalaka911 wrote: »

I lift the same as I do on a bulk. Don't change anything. The intensity may be lower though do to the loss in strength associated with lower kcals.

Don't make it more complicated than it should be.

As mentioned in my OP, I have no intentions of changing my routine/giving up lifting. I was just curious if low weight/high rep exercises would still be beneficial in muscle retention when in a deficit. Because I'm very active a lot of friends and family ask my advice and I wasn't entirely clear on the differences between the two lifting options in that regard.

dlm7507

The answers that you get will always be confirmation of the bias of the person giving the answer. If you have a firm idea of what your goal is, keep your goal the goal and do what people who have achieved that goal have done. Success leaves tracks.

ericGold15

kaylajane11 wrote: »

Maybe this is a stupid question, but I just can't seem to wrap my head around the difference between high weight/low rep and low weight/high rep, besides strength gains. For the record, this question is strictly curiosity based; I have no intention of giving up heavy lifting.

In physics terms, it is the difference between work and power.

Or for car people, although not exactly accurate, it is the difference between torque and horsepower.

cafeaulait7

I don't understand those physics or car terms, unfortunately, but I think of it as like jogging. You are moving a lot of weight while jogging, but it's still too light to affect the muscles a lot, even with all the 'reps'. It's not enough of a certain type of stress on those muscles.

Does jogging preserve muscle loss in a deficit? I don't even know for sure, but it doesn't work as well as lifting heavier (or either the joggers I've known have too high of a deficit or lack protein, imho).

ETA: Are we talking about still progressing the weights, though? Then my jogging analogy falls flat pretty quickly

I don't know whether the progression is really the key or what.

kaylajane11

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

ETA: Are we talking about still progressing the weights, though? Then my jogging analogy falls flat pretty quickly I don't know whether the progression is really the key or what.

I was more referring to resistance training and not steady state cardio. Not progressing the weight, necessarily, but adding reps to increase difficulty. I was curious about the effect this kind of training would have on muscle retention compared to a progressive lifting program with lower reps.

Basically what I've come to understand is that muscle endurance work will help retain some muscle in a deficit, but the best bang for your buck will come from lifting heavier with lower reps.

Timshel_

kaylajane11 wrote: »

I have been curious about this for a while and haven't been able to find a clear answer by searching the forums. I understand that in order to build strength, you should perform high weight/low rep lifts, while low weight/high rep exercises do not increase strength much, but increase muscle endurance.

Well, there are lots of studies that refute that principle at a high and granular level - bascially you can build well on low weight/high rep and you do get endurance/performance boosts from high weight/low rep. Anyway..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120430105358.htm

or

http://www.fitnflexed.com/the-best-rep-range-for-muscle-growth

Both have a good break down and both are recommended for activating different muscle fibers. Depending on overall goals (size, performance, endurance, etc) there are plenty of varieties. Most depends on sport.

My anecdotal work - from more lifting (bulk work) to more high intensity (light work high rep), for tennis the secondary approach worked better as I carried less bulk overall. More of a recomp kinda thing.

cafeaulait7

ETA: cross-post

kaylajane11 wrote: »

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

ETA: Are we talking about still progressing the weights, though? Then my jogging analogy falls flat pretty quickly I don't know whether the progression is really the key or what.

I was more referring to resistance training and not steady state cardio. Not progressing the weight, necessarily, but adding reps to increase difficulty. I was curious about the effect this kind of training would have on muscle retention compared to a progressive lifting program with lower reps.

Basically what I've come to understand is that muscle endurance work will help retain some muscle in a deficit, but the best bang for your buck will come from lifting heavier with lower reps.

I know; it was an analogy

If a weight is light enough to move for massive numbers of reps, it becomes a lot like moving the weight of your body during cardio is what I was thinking. There's something about progressive load on the muscles, imho, that's pretty key. And I do agree that heavier is probably more effective, and that would have to do with the load more than anything, I bet.