3-month Plateau
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CafeMatrix wrote: »Some people are eating too few calories. 1200 calories is probably putting your bodies into "starvation mode" and starts retaining fat. You need enough calories. Just also need the right amount of cardio and general exercise.
Starvation mode is a myth. You would need to eat nothing for a prolonged period for your body to start canobilizing itself.
If you gained weight from starving no one would would ever die from starvation.0 -
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CafeMatrix wrote: »Some people are eating too few calories. 1200 calories is probably putting your bodies into "starvation mode" and starts retaining fat. You need enough calories. Just also need the right amount of cardio and general exercise.
The evidence of the man who ate nothing for 382 days and lost a load of weight disproves your hypothesis.
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CafeMatrix wrote: »Some people are eating too few calories. 1200 calories is probably putting your bodies into "starvation mode" and starts retaining fat. You need enough calories. Just also need the right amount of cardio and general exercise.
Starvation mode is a myth.
You don't need cardio or general exercise to lose weight, but both are beneficial to overall health. Cardio raises one's TDEE so that once can eat a bit more.
I agree enough calories is necessary within your deficit to properly fuel your body. However, if you're not losing weight inaccuracy of calories in and/or out is generally the real problem. In other words, you are probably eating more than you realize.0 -
The first thing I would look at is accuracy. Are you weighing everything and are you logging accurate. If you are, how many times have you "cheated" or had a high calorie day? If it's been a while then you might need a refeed or simply a diet break for a while.
I'd like you to elaborate on this, please. It does not make sense have a "cheat" day or a "refeed" if you are not already lose weight.
IF she's being 100% accurate, which she's not, then a plateau with low calories and high amounts of exercise indicates hormonal imbalance (leptin being the main one). Adding a higher calorie day or a high calorie with high carbs (which is what an actual refeed is) can bring balance back to hormones. I'm sure you've seen many threads on here from people talking about how they stuck to their diet for months, but saw a huge drop after a cheat day.
@usmcmp, thank you elaborating. My interest is piqued.
Do you possibly know of some documentation that demonstrates higher calories for one day or higher carbs for one day will return leptin levels to normal? And, if they are returned to normal levels, how long before they drop again?
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@SLLRunner I'm not a huge fan of these articles, but there are studies at the bottom that I find interesting:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/refeeds-for-fat-loss-the-science-behind-leptin.html
http://dynamicduotraining.com/nutrition/the-science-behind-refeed-days/
This is where I first heard about leptin (there's several articles that were written):
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-hormones-of-bodyweight-regulation-leptin-part-1.html/
I would say that not everyone will find they need a refeed. Plenty of people don't have a dramatic enough of a deficit to impact hormones or they regularly "cheat". Refeeds are used by some bodybuilders during the cutting phase due to the deficit and often eating lower carb (not necessarily low, but lower). Carb cycling worked well for me for a while to keep the fat loss going, but I reached a point during competition prep where I plateaued and when a refeed was added (at TDEE with 100g protein, 20g fat, the rest carbs) the weight dropped significantly the next two days. If I hadn't been accurate with logging then improving accuracy would have come long before a refeed.
There is a relationship between leptin, insulin, ghrelin and cortisol. I haven't attempted to fully understand it and I probably should at some point.0 -
@SLLRunner I'm not a huge fan of these articles, but there are studies at the bottom that I find interesting:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/refeeds-for-fat-loss-the-science-behind-leptin.html
http://dynamicduotraining.com/nutrition/the-science-behind-refeed-days/
This is where I first heard about leptin (there's several articles that were written):
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-hormones-of-bodyweight-regulation-leptin-part-1.html/
I would say that not everyone will find they need a refeed. Plenty of people don't have a dramatic enough of a deficit to impact hormones or they regularly "cheat". Refeeds are used by some bodybuilders during the cutting phase due to the deficit and often eating lower carb (not necessarily low, but lower). Carb cycling worked well for me for a while to keep the fat loss going, but I reached a point during competition prep where I plateaued and when a refeed was added (at TDEE with 100g protein, 20g fat, the rest carbs) the weight dropped significantly the next two days. If I hadn't been accurate with logging then improving accuracy would have come long before a refeed.
There is a relationship between leptin, insulin, ghrelin and cortisol. I haven't attempted to fully understand it and I probably should at some point.
I do agree. If you are doing everything by the book (weighing foods and logging) and have been stuck for a while a refeed maybe in order.
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When I stalled, I reviewed what I wasn't doing right..realized I was not drinking enough water and a bit dehydrated. Upped my calories by 400 and drank 60 ounces of water.. started losing once again
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@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again. Well, it seems to me if you're truly eating at a calorie deficit and you eat at maintenance or slightly above one or two days a week, you're total overall calories are still at a deficit. Thus, the weight loss happens. because of the deficit and not the refeed day.
If you think you're eating at a calorie deficit but you're really not due to inaccuracy, a refeed day is the worst action a person could take. I've seen plenty of posts where people think they should just start eating more when they are not losing weight.
However, I see nothing in the articles that addressed my questions above. I have a difficult time believing that you can overeat one day and have a drop in the scale the next day just due to overeating (or refeed). It seems to me that it would be more coincidence than anything and part of natural fluctuations.0 -
sunandmoons wrote: »When I stalled, I reviewed what I wasn't doing right..realized I was not drinking enough water and a bit dehydrated. Upped my calories by 400 and drank 60 ounces of water.. started losing once again
You upped your calories by 400 for one day only and drank 60 ounces of water? Or, you did this for a prolonged period?
Either way, you still had to be in a deficit to lose weight.0 -
@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again.
I've been down this rabbit hole, it's a dead end.Leptin has been known about for <30 years and there is no identified direct effect of it on weight loss in humans. When it first appeared all the talk was about Leptin shots making mice thin or something.
Fat reserves excrete leptin, fatter people have more leptin, when they cut calories leptin falls. That's about it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15356018 found that leptin plays a role in appetite, but calorie counters override that and there isn't an identified direct role in fat loss.
Here's a review - http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/223/1/T83.full - enjoy the burrowing !
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But are there many good studies about long plateaus in folks losing weight where it was working? I think it's a bit of uncharted land, myself. Anecdotally, I do really well cycling my calories overall or having a big day at least every 10 days. It really doesn't work as well not doing that (lots of plateauing). I don't know why it would work, but it is a common 'myth' at least. I'm not worried about myths that work for me. I worry about the ones that that don't or are too silly to try, lol.
It would be interesting for more study. Plateaus are hard to arrange studies around, though, I'd expect. Most people probably are slipping in their eating or making other changes that they don't notice, and they'd get thrown out of a study on real plateaus. I don't know if the studies even agree that plateaus are real at the moment?
Meh, it can't hurt to have a (logged) reasonable treat day once you know your logging is well in order, imho, so you can work out the CICO math the same way with that info if that's all it is.0 -
Post hoc ergo propter hoc?sunandmoons wrote: »When I stalled, I reviewed what I wasn't doing right..realized I was not drinking enough water and a bit dehydrated. Upped my calories by 400 and drank 60 ounces of water.. started losing once again
You may have started losing again anyway.
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@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again. Well, it seems to me if you're truly eating at a calorie deficit and you eat at maintenance or slightly above one or two days a week, you're total overall calories are still at a deficit. Thus, the weight loss happens. because of the deficit and not the refeed day.
If you think you're eating at a calorie deficit but you're really not due to inaccuracy, a refeed day is the worst action a person could take. I've seen plenty of posts where people think they should just start eating more when they are not losing weight.
However, I see nothing in the articles that addressed my questions above. I have a difficult time believing that you can overeat one day and have a drop in the scale the next day just due to overeating (or refeed). It seems to me that it would be more coincidence than anything and part of natural fluctuations.
You would still be in a deficit at the end of the week. The weight loss is due to the deficit. I will never claim any different, a deficit is still required. There are times where weight loss stalls despite someone being accurate and accounting for the natural lowering of TDEE due to calorie restriction and weight loss. Taking a diet break or having a refeed day can help correct natural metabolic adaptations caused by calorie restriction.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2011-1286?sid=c2c187ec-5445-48ad-9291-be95019f6a68&
I also mentioned before that leptin isn't the only hormone at play in this. Cortisol often masks fat loss, putting you into a plateau due to water retention. A higher calorie day, laying off cardio or making other changes can release the water.0 -
@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again.
I've been down this rabbit hole, it's a dead end.Leptin has been known about for <30 years and there is no identified direct effect of it on weight loss in humans. When it first appeared all the talk was about Leptin shots making mice thin or something.
Fat reserves excrete leptin, fatter people have more leptin, when they cut calories leptin falls. That's about it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15356018 found that leptin plays a role in appetite, but calorie counters override that and there isn't an identified direct role in fat loss.
Here's a review - http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/223/1/T83.full - enjoy the burrowing !
Thank you so much, @yarwell. I was thinking along the same lines but did not know if I would be correct or not.0 -
@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again. Well, it seems to me if you're truly eating at a calorie deficit and you eat at maintenance or slightly above one or two days a week, you're total overall calories are still at a deficit. Thus, the weight loss happens. because of the deficit and not the refeed day.
If you think you're eating at a calorie deficit but you're really not due to inaccuracy, a refeed day is the worst action a person could take. I've seen plenty of posts where people think they should just start eating more when they are not losing weight.
However, I see nothing in the articles that addressed my questions above. I have a difficult time believing that you can overeat one day and have a drop in the scale the next day just due to overeating (or refeed). It seems to me that it would be more coincidence than anything and part of natural fluctuations.
You would still be in a deficit at the end of the week. The weight loss is due to the deficit. I will never claim any different, a deficit is still required. There are times where weight loss stalls despite someone being accurate and accounting for the natural lowering of TDEE due to calorie restriction and weight loss. Taking a diet break or having a refeed day can help correct natural metabolic adaptations caused by calorie restriction.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2011-1286?sid=c2c187ec-5445-48ad-9291-be95019f6a68&
I also mentioned before that leptin isn't the only hormone at play in this. Cortisol often masks fat loss, putting you into a plateau due to water retention. A higher calorie day, laying off cardio or making other changes can release the water.
Well, weight loss is not linear and water retention is normal.0 -
@usmcmp, I am learning about leptin, so forgive me if I'm not following. What I gleaned from these articles is that eating at a larger deficit for a prolonged period of time causes a leptin decrease, but a refeed up to TDEE or slightly above is supposed to raise leptin levels so hopefully weight loss starts again. Well, it seems to me if you're truly eating at a calorie deficit and you eat at maintenance or slightly above one or two days a week, you're total overall calories are still at a deficit. Thus, the weight loss happens. because of the deficit and not the refeed day.
If you think you're eating at a calorie deficit but you're really not due to inaccuracy, a refeed day is the worst action a person could take. I've seen plenty of posts where people think they should just start eating more when they are not losing weight.
However, I see nothing in the articles that addressed my questions above. I have a difficult time believing that you can overeat one day and have a drop in the scale the next day just due to overeating (or refeed). It seems to me that it would be more coincidence than anything and part of natural fluctuations.
You would still be in a deficit at the end of the week. The weight loss is due to the deficit. I will never claim any different, a deficit is still required. There are times where weight loss stalls despite someone being accurate and accounting for the natural lowering of TDEE due to calorie restriction and weight loss. Taking a diet break or having a refeed day can help correct natural metabolic adaptations caused by calorie restriction.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2011-1286?sid=c2c187ec-5445-48ad-9291-be95019f6a68&
I also mentioned before that leptin isn't the only hormone at play in this. Cortisol often masks fat loss, putting you into a plateau due to water retention. A higher calorie day, laying off cardio or making other changes can release the water.
Well, weight loss is not linear and water retention is normal.
Of course. But you can help bring your TDEE up by having refeeds and restoring hormonal balance. The degree of hormonal adaptation can have a fairly large impact. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/196601480 -
Scroll down to Why Take a Full Diet Break: Physiological Reasons on this article: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
Lyle talks about other hormones that get out of whack when dieting.0 -
sunandmoons wrote: »When I stalled, I reviewed what I wasn't doing right..realized I was not drinking enough water and a bit dehydrated. Upped my calories by 400 and drank 60 ounces of water.. started losing once again
You upped your calories by 400 for one day only and drank 60 ounces of water? Or, you did this for a prolonged period?
Either way, you still had to be in a deficit to lose weight.
Yes for a few weeks upped my calories a bit some days less then another. Yes I was in a smaller defecit. My point was I was dehydrated. 100 days of 1200 calories and only drinking about 30 to 35 ounces of water.0
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