Need to get back on vegan + low calorie again. Advice welcome! Help! Disaster!

douglerner

Hello everybody. I've slipped and reverted to "the dark side" and would appreciate help getting back. I'm in a bad place right now and want to get back to eating right.

A brief recap, though many of you might remember my story.

2012 - I weighed 129 kg and had a heart attack and a stent installed. My blood sugar was through the roof (HbA1c 11+). And so was my cholesterol. My doctor recommended an 1800 calorie/day diet and exercise. I decided to be more pro-active and started the Ornish heart disease prevention diet which is basically vegan + no oil + no nuts.

That was 1,314 days ago. Yes, I continue to log every day, so I've followed this slow moving disaster day by day.

All through the rest of 2012 and 2013 I was very good on the diet - didn't go off once. by February 1, 2014 I had dropped to 89 kg - a loss of 40 kg! My HbA1c dropped to 5.4. My LDL dropped to 72, but it vegan alone didn't help with that. I needed to take 1 statin every evening. My doctor (and Ornish too) admitted that just eating vegan doesn't always help with that. Anyway, at the beginning of 2014 all my blood values were great.

Then I started slowly going off my diet (as I had so many times in the past).

By April, 2014 I was back to 95 kg.

By September I was in the high 90s, somes hitting 100 kg.

By November 2014 I was consistently over 100 kg.

By January of this year I was over 105 kg.

Most of this year I was struggling in the 106-109 kg range.

This month I broke 110 kg.

My blood sugar got dangerously high again and I'm taking some blood sugar meds which have brought my HbA1c down to about 6 now. I still take the statin and my cholesterol is ok. But I feel terrible - because of my weight and the way I'm eating.


I'm trying to halt a complete reversal and I can't.

I slipped off vegan almost 2 years ago. I was feeling (1) that the rice especially was too caloric, (2) my body doesn't react well to tofu and soy it seems (a surprise to me, because I like it), (3) my digestive system never really reacted well to being vegan all the time.

I feel there is probably a healthy, VEGAN, very low calorie (avoiding starvation mode), sufficient protein way to get back on track again. Advice is appreciated!

I think grains are deadly, calorie wise. But I do love rice - brown rice, white rice, all rice. But I do believe rice contributed to me eventually going off my diet and starting my rebound.

I never felt "deprived" when I was vegan. But, as some of you might recall, my digestive system also never really felt great during the 700 days I tried it.

But I think I isolated the cause of that. To my great surprise, I believe I found out I have some intolerance to soy! Particularly tofu and edamame, both of which I love and ate a lot of the first time around. I think if I avoid tofu and edamame this time it might be ok. Maybe soy milk is ok too, in limited amounts. Green veggies seem to be ok. And salad vegetables. Not all legumes are bad it turned out. I think I tolerate garbanzo beans and red kidney beans well, like 50 gm at a time in lunch salads.

I just have to do something though. It needs to be really low calorie. I'm thinking below 1,500, because at 59 years of age my metabolism just seems to have slowed down. I'm thinking of "net calories" - so I can add a bit more food if I do a good amount of exercise some days. But basically I'm aiming for 1500 calories.

I'm not really sure what to make as my "staple food" though. Rice is just plain too caloric. I can't control my appetite when I eat rice. It's just not filling; not even brown rice.

I'm thinking that to truly feel healthy again and reverse this rebound before I gain it all back I need to eat (1) less food; (2) eat vegan as much as possible (even if I have to wean myself back into it); (3) stop snacking; (4) concentrate on green vegetables and fruits maybe...

I think vegan is an important component though. My statin helped bring my cholesterol down to normal levels. But vegan *plus* the statin was super good - like incredibly, better-than-anybody-I-know cholesterol levels.

And when I lose weight my blood sugar always goes down, even if I eat tons of fruits a day. My weight seems critical for controlling blood sugar.

Anyway, any suggestions would be appreciated.

I wonder how important dropping the oils and nuts are. It seems it's important maybe for the calories? Both oils and nuts are incredibly high in calories.

Advice welcome! I am tired of eating dead animals, pretending that I need to "go low carb to avoid sugars." If I'm having a problem with sugars I should just avoid added sugars and be strict about that.

A bad experience with a pork chop the other night made me realize how sick the way I've been eating has been. I generally enjoyed the 700 days I was vegan. It helped me bring some perspective and sanity to what I was eating.

I just need to find the discipline again before having another heart attack!

Anyway, I'm back. For those who remember me, thanks for your advice in the past.

doug

OyGeeBiv

I think you're trying to combine every "diet" out there, which is why you haven't been able to sustain any of it. You can't do low carb, low fat, vegan-without-enough-protein, AND low calorie. There's nothing left to nourish your body.

Any of those can help you lose weight IF you eat fewer calories than you burn. But you need to have enough calories and nutrients to keep your body functioning. If you're serious about following a vegan lifestyle, do enough research so you know what you should be eating. You'll probably get most of your protein from foods that are also mostly carbs. Beans, legumes, etc.

douglerner

I was on vegan + low calorie for 700 days from mid-2012 and lost 40 kg and got plenty of protein. I've also been on just low calorie eat-whatever-I-want for 700 days in the past and lost about the same. I understand that for losing weight all that ultimately matters is the calories. But what you eat also can make you feel good or bad, or have other health consequences.

I'm feeling I need to return to vegan for now.

I'm losing control - and sometimes more flexibility and more choices makes it harder rather than easier.

jb_2011

Hello there Doug, I'm Joanie. I'm at a similar crossroads as you are, I hope we can help each other figure this out. I'm a couple of years older, but certainly no wiser! Well, maybe a little, haha! Just kidding.

I've been a member of MFP for 5 years, lost 65 lbs my first two years, but have gained approx. 5 lbs a year for the last 3 years. This has to stop! I am going to drop 20 lbs. There, I said it.

Logging became tiresome, and I started cheating a little, that's why I gained. And I thought, "what the heck, eat a little more, don't be so strict" but hey, that was a great big OOPS, and now I'm in dire straits.

It's all about eating less for me since I'm not an athlete by any means. I walk dogs every day and I'm starting back to a little strength work and aerobic dance in the mornings. Not a lot, but a little. Have a bad knee, bleh.

I'm not vegan, but I think it's a fine thing for anyone to be if they so desire. I believe nuts & good fats are important. I believe complex carbs are important, like barley, rice, and oats, in small amounts like 1/2 - 1 cup cooked, maybe a couple times a day. Also beans & legumes daily, and of course massive amounts of greens & vegs. Take a look at Dr. Weil's Anti-Inflammatory Diet Pyramid. That's what I'm trying to follow. I'm not very good at it yet, but making progress.

On my desk I have a little note that reminds me to keep carbs around 140g, fat at 42g, protein 31-62g, all according to Dr. Weil's recommendations. I also track potassium, aiming to keep daily intake well above 3500g. It helps me feel better all over. My calories are set at 1380, I'm aiming for 1350.

I'll bookmark this thread so we can keep in touch. Thanks for posting!

douglerner

Very nice to meet you, Joanie. Yes, we do seem to be at similar crossroads, though you are not nearly as heavy as I am. I was at my lowest adult weight when I was dieting and had a dog to walk multiple times a day. I agree it's mostly food, but exercise helps with overall strength and vitality at least. Rumor has it that adding muscles also increase metabolism. But I would need lots more muscles than I have now for that to kick in.

Keep in touch!

cafeaulait7

I would definitely add some sort of vegan milk. If you crave a snack uncontrollably, you might find that a nice glass of milk actually fits the bill. It's what I do when I want to avoid a mini-binge or a very high carb snack (I have to watch my blood sugars for medical reasons, too). I usually grab real milk or skim cheese sticks in individual packages, but the vegan alternatives should work, too, if they have good protein. I noticed soymilk has much better protein than almond milk, so consider that. If they have vegan 'Instant Breakfast' sort of diet chocolate mix, that can be a lifesaver for my cravings (just the carb control kind for me). I use half a pack, just enough for the chocolate taste

If there's any way you could up your calories and lose the re-gained weight more slowly, that would help a lot. It's hard to sustain the net you are trying to hit, imho. It is for me, anyway! What's maintenance for your goal weight? I'd split the difference at least. The food itself might matter more than the speed of weight loss with your conditions. You'd have to check with your doctor on that. If it's possible to just diet slowly while watching what you eat and getting some convenient exercise, that would be easiest, so see if it's an option, imho. Good luck!!

EvgeniZyntx

You are going back to something that didn't work long term and that your body didn't react well too?
Why?

Why not try a simply high greens, omnivore diet?

OyGeeBiv

douglerner wrote: »

I was on vegan + low calorie for 700 days from mid-2012 and lost 40 kg and got plenty of protein. I've also been on just low calorie eat-whatever-I-want for 700 days in the past and lost about the same. I understand that for losing weight all that ultimately matters is the calories. But what you eat also can make you feel good or bad, or have other health consequences.

I'm feeling I need to return to vegan for now.

I'm losing control - and sometimes more flexibility and more choices makes it harder rather than easier.

That makes sense. I thought you were trying to do low calorie AND low carb AND vegan at the same time. I agree that what you eat makes a huge difference.

robingmurphy

Hi there! I try to stick to a 90% whole plant foods diet, and I understand what you mean about rice being hard to control. I agree it's not best for weight loss. If I were you, I'd check out Dr. Fuhrman's Eat to Live book. He has a whole plant foods diet plan with more of a focus on greens & beans. It's a solid, science-based plan.

douglerner

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

If there's any way you could up your calories and lose the re-gained weight more slowly, that would help a lot. It's hard to sustain the net you are trying to hit, imho. It is for me, anyway! What's maintenance for your goal weight? I'd split the difference at least. The food itself might matter more than the speed of weight loss with your conditions. You'd have to check with your doctor on that. If it's possible to just diet slowly while watching what you eat and getting some convenient exercise, that would be easiest, so see if it's an option, imho. Good luck!!

I really don't know anymore what maintenance is for my goal weight. I've never been at my goal weight my entire adult life! I would guess from my current metabolism it's probably around 1600 calories though at goal. Not much.

douglerner

EvgeniZyntx wrote: »

You are going back to something that didn't work long term and that your body didn't react well too?
Why?

Why not try a simply high greens, omnivore diet?

Been there done that too. Lost a LOT of weight. I got down to 79.8 kg after 700 days. This was in 2006. But then "something" happens after 700 days and I just start rebounding. It doesn't matter the diet. Weight Watchers, what you suggested, Ornish's heart-disease reversal problem (the vegan, no oil, no nuts) thing.

No matter what diet I've tried after 700 days something happens and weight starts creeping up again.

douglerner

64crayons wrote: »

That makes sense. I thought you were trying to do low calorie AND low carb AND vegan at the same time. I agree that what you eat makes a huge difference.

Haha. No - I am not going to also do low carb. I'm just pointing out that rice is a lot of empty calories and triggers hunger spikes. So I have to find more satisfying carbs to replace it.

doug

douglerner

robingmurphy wrote: »

Hi there! I try to stick to a 90% whole plant foods diet, and I understand what you mean about rice being hard to control. I agree it's not best for weight loss. If I were you, I'd check out Dr. Fuhrman's Eat to Live book. He has a whole plant foods diet plan with more of a focus on greens & beans. It's a solid, science-based plan.

I think I've seen that diet. I also have to be careful of too many legumes, for digestive reasons. Some are ok though.

Thanks.

jb_2011

Pearled barley is wonderful stuff! Maybe you could try cooking some and see how you like it. I like it for breakfast, keeps me feeling full for a long time.

douglerner

jb_2011 wrote: »

Pearled barley is wonderful stuff! Maybe you could try cooking some and see how you like it. I like it for breakfast, keeps me feeling full for a long time.

I'll see if I can find some in my local supermarket - and check the calories of course!

OyGeeBiv

Barley is fantastic!

I've been making some great dishes with combinations of lentils & rice, lentils & barley, and beans & sweet potato. They're so satisfying and tasty and are naturally vegan. I have the typical problem with beans and legumes, so I take generic simethicone tablets as needed. It's worth it to me to get the benefits of beans and legumes.

Oatmeal is another food you might want to try. You can eat it plain or with any number of added goodies. My standard way is with cinnamon, half a chopped apple, and a tablespoon of peanut butter. I also like it with cinnamon and cherries (I add frozen cherries as the oatmeal's cooking).

I've had a thought about your 700 day cycle. Do you think it would help if you changed up your diet every so often, on purpose? Cycle between vegetarian, vegan and whatever else seem good to you. Maybe a year at a time or something like that. If you cycle at anything significantly less than 700 days, you'll never get to 700 days on one plan, so maybe whatever triggers you to quit won't happen.

OyGeeBiv

Barley, pearled, cooked
Amount Per 1 cup (157 g)
Calories 193
% Daily Value*
Total Fat 0.7 g 1%
Saturated fat 0.1 g 0%
Polyunsaturated fat 0.3 g
Monounsaturated fat 0.1 g
Cholesterol 0 mg 0%
Sodium 5 mg 0%
Potassium 146 mg 4%
Total Carbohydrate 44 g 14%
Dietary fiber 6 g 24%
Sugar 0.4 g
Protein 3.5 g 7%
Vitamin A 0%
Vitamin C 0%
Calcium 1%
Iron 11%
Vitamin D 0%
Vitamin B-6 10%
Vitamin B-12 0%
Magnesium 8%

Obnoxa

I find quinoa and couscous are much better alternatives to rice. Much denser and more satisfying than rice. As for veganism, can't help you too much there, I'm a pescatarian so I have fish to fall back on when I burn out on tofu/beans. Though I really love chick peas, I put those suckers in everything I can!
Good luck

jb_2011

I'm on the barley brigade! Nice and chewy, large grains that go well with almost anything. Cook up a cup full of dry, it'll make quite a bit which you can keep in the fridge for a few days. I use about half-cup of cooked at a time, sometimes more. Love steel-cut oats as well, great cooked with apple!

From Dr. Weil's blog on carbs: "Focus on healthy carbs such as those found in true whole grains. These minimally processed foods are digested more slowly than are refined carbs, and contain vitamins, minerals, and fiber. Dr. Weil defines true whole grains as those typically served with the grain intact or in large pieces - examples include barley, quinoa, basmati rice, bulgur wheat and millet. The body metabolizes large, intact grains more slowly, preventing blood sugar "spikes" that are followed by "lows." The result is a steady, productive energy that propels you through the day."

Also love chickpeas!! I make a curried red lentil & chickpea soup that is outta this world.

Best wishes, Doug, let us know how you're doing today.

OyGeeBiv

jb_2011 wrote: »

Also love chickpeas!! I make a curried red lentil & chickpea soup that is outta this world.

@jb_2011 Sounds delicious! Would you share the recipe please? Here or in PM would be fine. Thanks

jb_2011

PS - What are your thoughts on healthy fats, Doug? Will you be including them? I hope so. Walnuts, flax meal, avocados are wonderful additions in small amounts. We need Omega-3s for mental health. I need lots of help in that area LOL

jb_2011

Here you go, 64! Happy to share.

Auntie Joan's Curried Red Lentils & Chickpeas

3 cups water
1/2 cup dry red lentils
1 can chickpeas (garbanzo beans), drained
1/2 cup chopped celery
1/2 cup chopped onion
1 T. fresh ginger, minced (or use paste)
1/2 teaspoon hot or mild curry powder
1/2 tsp. garlic powder
1/4 tsp. ginger powder
1/4 tsp. onion powder
1/8 tsp. dried thyme
1/8 tsp. cumin
Dash or 2 cayenne
Pinch parsley flakes
1/2 tsp. maple syrup or honey
Salt to taste if desired

Add all to saucepan, heat to boiling, stir. Reduce heat to low, cover the pan and simmer for 25-30 min.

Serving size 1 cup. Approx. 193 calories, 2 g fat, 12 g protein, 462 g potassium

OyGeeBiv

jb_2011 wrote: »

Here you go, 64! Happy to share.

Auntie Joan's Curried Red Lentils & Chickpeas

Thank you!

jb_2011

The soup is quite thick, 64. You can add another cup water if you like it a bit thinner.

OyGeeBiv

I usually make dishes like this in a slow cooker, and then add extra water when I heat up the leftovers. It's "stew" the first time and "soup" after that! When I'm reheating, I also tend to toss in a generous handful of baby spinach. Almost no calories, but some added nutrients and I like the flavor/texture.

jb_2011

Hey Doug. How are ya? Just wondering how things are going. Let's keep putting one foot in front of the other, we'll get there eventually. I made a little progress yesterday, not a lot, but at least it's something. I need to practice continual patience which doesn't come easy! If I get disgusted, I fail. Every single time. Balance, grasshopper.

douglerner

Wow, so much to respond to. Thanks for all the supportive messages. Some replies!

First, jp_2011 was wondering how I am doing today. The answer is, "not perfect, not horrible."

Yesterday evening, just before I was going to make some green beans, mushrooms and tomato sauce for dinner I had an emergency call about an old friend of mine who lives on the other side of town. He is 96 and had fallen in his house and, anyway, it's all complicated but I needed to go over and help. I was there until midnight and took the last train back, so for dinner I had two onigiri (rice balls). They were vegan (sekihan) though.

But today I ended up having some white rice with sashimi on top. Again, not vegan, but not really bad calorie-wise.

I'll see how it goes tomorrow.

Let's see. In response to some of the other messages!

I do like barley, and the recipes seem great. But to be honest, when I see "one cup servings" I think, "wow, that's a small serving." I think one cup of grains is not much to eat really. It seems like too much of a waste of calories to even bother with. So this is a conundrum I always have with grains.

Couscous is better that way. I used to love Trader Joe's couscous. I haven't been able to find couscous here though. But I do think that is filling.

I also love plain oatmeal with soy milk. The problem, again, is portion control. If I have a box of oatmeal I could see myself working through the whole 1,200 calorie box throughout the day. The temptation would always be there. I have to figure out have to deal with portion control.

But I was good today, except for the sashimi I had with dinner. And I believe I was well under 1,800 calories for the day. I believe under 1,500. Certainly no more than 1,600.

About changing diets from time to time to avoid the 700 day cycle - I don't know. I don't think it is boredom with the diet that makes me go off. I think part of it is frustration that my weight loss ceases at a certain point, part of it is psychological (stress, etc.) and part of it is physical - all those shrunken fat cells screaming to my brain, "I'm starving! Feed me!"

After all, more than 80% of dieters rebound, right? It's a huge problem. Every time I think I have finally found "the way" something happens 2 years later.

Anyway, I'm trying.

Thanks,

doug

fiddletime

Doug, have you checked out the Maintenance boards? When I came back here for the second time, in the summer, I realized that I was successful at losing to my goal weight, but not at keeping it off. Those boards have people who've maintained for years. What's their secret? How do they do that mentally? I started my weight loss journey this time around spending many hours on Maintenance. It gave me the insight I needed to start once again. I was initially discouraged from the get go, wondering "why bother?" since I might just put it back on again.

jb_2011

How great that you could go over and help your friend, Doug. That's wonderful. Hope he's ok!

I hear you about serving sizes. I need lots of variety, too. After I lost the bulk of my weight, I started eating more just because it tasted good. I forgot that food is something I "need" and not just things that I "want". That was a hard lesson to learn, and I still haven't mastered it. Thus, conquering cravings is key. I had an episode today that showed me how important good carbs are to maintain consistent energy....I ate almost no carbs for lunch and came home famished after my walk. I don't do well under those circumstances, ugh! Yes, I ate. And I ate plenty. My dinner will consist of steamed broccoli and half a cup of curry. No rice tonight, I certainly don't need it.

LKArgh

douglerner wrote: »

Hello everybody. I've slipped and reverted to "the dark side" and would appreciate help getting back. I'm in a bad place right now and want to get back to eating right.

A brief recap, though many of you might remember my story.

2012 - I weighed 129 kg and had a heart attack and a stent installed. My blood sugar was through the roof (HbA1c 11+). And so was my cholesterol. My doctor recommended an 1800 calorie/day diet and exercise. I decided to be more pro-active and started the Ornish heart disease prevention diet which is basically vegan + no oil + no nuts.

That was 1,314 days ago. Yes, I continue to log every day, so I've followed this slow moving disaster day by day.

All through the rest of 2012 and 2013 I was very good on the diet - didn't go off once. by February 1, 2014 I had dropped to 89 kg - a loss of 40 kg! My HbA1c dropped to 5.4. My LDL dropped to 72, but it vegan alone didn't help with that. I needed to take 1 statin every evening. My doctor (and Ornish too) admitted that just eating vegan doesn't always help with that. Anyway, at the beginning of 2014 all my blood values were great.

Then I started slowly going off my diet (as I had so many times in the past).

By April, 2014 I was back to 95 kg.

By September I was in the high 90s, somes hitting 100 kg.

By November 2014 I was consistently over 100 kg.

By January of this year I was over 105 kg.

Most of this year I was struggling in the 106-109 kg range.

This month I broke 110 kg.

My blood sugar got dangerously high again and I'm taking some blood sugar meds which have brought my HbA1c down to about 6 now. I still take the statin and my cholesterol is ok. But I feel terrible - because of my weight and the way I'm eating.


I'm trying to halt a complete reversal and I can't.

I slipped off vegan almost 2 years ago. I was feeling (1) that the rice especially was too caloric, (2) my body doesn't react well to tofu and soy it seems (a surprise to me, because I like it), (3) my digestive system never really reacted well to being vegan all the time.

I feel there is probably a healthy, VEGAN, very low calorie (avoiding starvation mode), sufficient protein way to get back on track again. Advice is appreciated!

I think grains are deadly, calorie wise. But I do love rice - brown rice, white rice, all rice. But I do believe rice contributed to me eventually going off my diet and starting my rebound.

I never felt "deprived" when I was vegan. But, as some of you might recall, my digestive system also never really felt great during the 700 days I tried it.

But I think I isolated the cause of that. To my great surprise, I believe I found out I have some intolerance to soy! Particularly tofu and edamame, both of which I love and ate a lot of the first time around. I think if I avoid tofu and edamame this time it might be ok. Maybe soy milk is ok too, in limited amounts. Green veggies seem to be ok. And salad vegetables. Not all legumes are bad it turned out. I think I tolerate garbanzo beans and red kidney beans well, like 50 gm at a time in lunch salads.

I just have to do something though. It needs to be really low calorie. I'm thinking below 1,500, because at 59 years of age my metabolism just seems to have slowed down. I'm thinking of "net calories" - so I can add a bit more food if I do a good amount of exercise some days. But basically I'm aiming for 1500 calories.

I'm not really sure what to make as my "staple food" though. Rice is just plain too caloric. I can't control my appetite when I eat rice. It's just not filling; not even brown rice.

I'm thinking that to truly feel healthy again and reverse this rebound before I gain it all back I need to eat (1) less food; (2) eat vegan as much as possible (even if I have to wean myself back into it); (3) stop snacking; (4) concentrate on green vegetables and fruits maybe...

I think vegan is an important component though. My statin helped bring my cholesterol down to normal levels. But vegan *plus* the statin was super good - like incredibly, better-than-anybody-I-know cholesterol levels.

And when I lose weight my blood sugar always goes down, even if I eat tons of fruits a day. My weight seems critical for controlling blood sugar.

Anyway, any suggestions would be appreciated.

I wonder how important dropping the oils and nuts are. It seems it's important maybe for the calories? Both oils and nuts are incredibly high in calories.

Advice welcome! I am tired of eating dead animals, pretending that I need to "go low carb to avoid sugars." If I'm having a problem with sugars I should just avoid added sugars and be strict about that.

A bad experience with a pork chop the other night made me realize how sick the way I've been eating has been. I generally enjoyed the 700 days I was vegan. It helped me bring some perspective and sanity to what I was eating.

I just need to find the discipline again before having another heart attack!

Anyway, I'm back. For those who remember me, thanks for your advice in the past.

doug

Follow your dr's initial advice. It would not have fast results, it would not mean dramatic lifestyle changes, which is exactly why it would work on the long run.

douglerner

Thanks for your new notes, everybody. It's been a "not great" few days. But what can I do? There are only two choices:

1. Rebound and get sick and have another heart attack like I did in 2012.

2. Keep trying and trying and trying.

So I will try afresh again tomorrow.

I'm trying to remember how great it felt to be sticking to my diet plan before!

I will also check out the maintenance boards. Thanks for the suggestion.

doug@depressed, but not giving up