Hedonic Hunger
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Drive-by post since I'm on vacation:
I am familiar with the discussions of hedonic hunger and do think it (or a form of it) is responsible for much overeating. But I don't think that has a thing to do with foods being addictive in any real sense. What I think it relates to is that, much as people like to imagine otherwise, humans have no evolutionary reason to eat only when actually in need of food or when feeling hunger already. Evolutionarily and just historically, it would have been an advantage to eat foods that were good for us (often meaning lots of calories -- like meat and fruit, later bread, etc.) when they were available, as there were feast and famine periods, without needing to think "am I really hungry." Also through most history, food hasn't been around all the time, so it wasn't an issue -- you ate at meal time and liked it, and weren't fat (except for the very rich, who might have engaged in extreme excess at meal time).
So it's not surprising that we still (or many of us) want to eat tasty food when it's around, even if we just ate 2 hours ago and have no need of calories. It's just human, not "addiction."
Personally, I really dislike most of the packaged goods that are supposed to be so "addictive." I haven't liked fast food since I was a kid, never liked packaged sweets or chips (with a few exceptions, like ice cream, some girl scout cookies, goldfish -- never things I've overeaten, though). But I am definitely a hedonic eater if I don't work against that -- it's just nice for me that the foods (high cal, high fat and sugar, for sure, but it's not like you need modern science for those, just a good cook or chef or cheesemaker!) I am most attracted to aren't as easily/cheaply available at the grocery store. But they are still easily available in this day.
So I really think the issue is that foods that fit the bill for most are now available so easily -- they are everywhere, they cost very little. Given this, and given that we know the issue is that for many of us we will not be limited in our desire to eat by whether we need the calories or not (IMO that's a fantasy), then people just need to figure out how to deal. For me it's mostly the old fashioned solution of eating at mealtimes only. Our culture may make it okay to eat throughout the day, but that's not a habit that works for me. For others it may relate to what they keep at home or eating only what they bake themselves or whatever. But I find the notion that a Twinkie is somehow more appealing than a homemade baked good or, even more crazy, something nasty like a Lunchable more irresistible than a homemade meal of cheese and meat pretty much a non-starter, and homemade (or made in a high quality restaurant) pasta or pizza is IMO much better than anything store-bought, of course. So to focus on packaged foods being especially tempting due to additives is, IMO, wrong. The issue with those foods is they create availability and the additives made them caloric and cheaply tasty even without the time of making them yourself (because the additives at issue are fat and salt and sugar of some sort, presumably).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Drive-by post since I'm on vacation:
I am familiar with the discussions of hedonic hunger and do think it (or a form of it) is responsible for much overeating. But I don't think that has a thing to do with foods being addictive in any real sense. What I think it relates to is that, much as people like to imagine otherwise, humans have no evolutionary reason to eat only when actually in need of food or when feeling hunger already. Evolutionarily and just historically, it would have been an advantage to eat foods that were good for us (often meaning lots of calories -- like meat and fruit, later bread, etc.) when they were available, as there were feast and famine periods, without needing to think "am I really hungry." Also through most history, food hasn't been around all the time, so it wasn't an issue -- you ate at meal time and liked it, and weren't fat (except for the very rich, who might have engaged in extreme excess at meal time).
So it's not surprising that we still (or many of us) want to eat tasty food when it's around, even if we just ate 2 hours ago and have no need of calories. It's just human, not "addiction."
Personally, I really dislike most of the packaged goods that are supposed to be so "addictive." I haven't liked fast food since I was a kid, never liked packaged sweets or chips (with a few exceptions, like ice cream, some girl scout cookies, goldfish -- never things I've overeaten, though). But I am definitely a hedonic eater if I don't work against that -- it's just nice for me that the foods (high cal, high fat and sugar, for sure, but it's not like you need modern science for those, just a good cook or chef or cheesemaker!) I am most attracted to aren't as easily/cheaply available at the grocery store. But they are still easily available in this day.
So I really think the issue is that foods that fit the bill for most are now available so easily -- they are everywhere, they cost very little. Given this, and given that we know the issue is that for many of us we will not be limited in our desire to eat by whether we need the calories or not (IMO that's a fantasy), then people just need to figure out how to deal. For me it's mostly the old fashioned solution of eating at mealtimes only. Our culture may make it okay to eat throughout the day, but that's not a habit that works for me. For others it may relate to what they keep at home or eating only what they bake themselves or whatever. But I find the notion that a Twinkie is somehow more appealing than a homemade baked good or, even more crazy, something nasty like a Lunchable more irresistible than a homemade meal of cheese and meat pretty much a non-starter, and homemade (or made in a high quality restaurant) pasta or pizza is IMO much better than anything store-bought, of course. So to focus on packaged foods being especially tempting due to additives is, IMO, wrong. The issue with those foods is they create availability and the additives made them caloric and cheaply tasty even without the time of making them yourself (because the additives at issue are fat and salt and sugar of some sort, presumably).
Nice drive-by
I think the "food addiction" and even the "food additives" and especially "get some willpower" is a bit of a dead end. Palatable food has always been available, but now it is more available than is healthy for most people. When food is available, we will eat, that is a trait that would, in any environment than the one we currently live in, improve health and ensure survival.
Almost no society has had any need to practice "mindful eating" - food is there? We eat. But as food has become more available physically, mental restrictions have been imposed instead - eating rules - don't overeat, leave the table while you still feel a little hungry, don't be a glutton - or at least, we eat at meals and only at meals. Today, as we have more disposable money, and food is cheaper to produce, so we are told (by those who produce and sell foods, incidentally) that we shouldn't feel the slightest bit hungry, ever, and that we are "allowed" to "treat ourselves" and "indulge" whenever we feel like it. Family meals and home cooking aren't the norm anymore. (And when did it become normal for adults to eat candy? When I grew up, it was something only children did - or at least I was told that, lol, maybe every adult ate in secret all the time
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For me, when I think about it (and reading this thread and especially this post makes me think about it) I realise that the taste and habit are strong forces, but the availability is the strongest, for me. I have to create those restrictions or rules myself, and it's difficult because I'm the only one to supervise it, but it's the only solution I can see will work, and it works. When I reduce availability, the cravings are reduced. I can live with that. Having treats when offered is often enough for me. I will have sweets, I just don't buy them anymore.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »Rodent studies.
When and if the results are replicated in human studies, I'll give it more credence.
I don't disagree with the underlying premise - that overconsumption of hyper-palatable foods (which tend to be concoctions of sugars and fats) are a major cause of the obesity crisis.
I disagree that we are powerless to change that behavior. Myself, and many others who are and continue to be successful with moderating (or in others' cases, eliminating) such foods indicates that the whole 'our brains get rewired such that we can't help ourselves' hypothesis seems to be merely an excuse.
Agree.
While I agree with the premise of hedonic hunger, I disagree with the idea that we can never control it and that it's the food.
I have eaten sweets just for pleasure and I have eaten savory foods like chicken legs in large quantities for the same reason.
When it comes to hormonal responses in humans and how much sway they supposedly hold, I always think back to this one study I read on satiety. In the study, the participants were told that they were drinking a beverage that would form a gel in their stomachs once it was there. It was in liquid form when it was ingested.
Well, it didn't do any such thing.
Now here's where it gets interesting. The study did have a control group... one group was told the liquid would gel, the other wasn't. In the group that was told it would gel, the participants not only reported feeling full from ingesting the liquid, they had the hormonal responses indicating satiety. Yup. They believed they were going to get full from the liquid, and they released the hormone to engender that response.
The control group? They didn't think they'd get full just from drinking liquid and did not have a similar response.
Bottom line? Humans are more complicated than rats with a mind-body connection.
Thanks for bringing that up. I am going to have to see if I can find that study, it sounds fascinating.0 -
I don't consider keeping foods that trigger my "hedonic hunger" out of the house avoiding the problem. I recognize there will be situations I am exposed to them and I need to learn to handle them. And I can do a good job at that sometimes. But if it's in the house and I'm exposed to it 10 times a day - inevitably at times when I'm tired or otherwise unmotivated - I'm much more likely to have a slip up. If I slip up only 10% of the time, that is still a lot of extra calories if it's in my house and I have to make that choice multiple times a day. If I'm only exposed to it at potlucks, restaurants, work, other people's homes, then slipping up 10% of the time does a lot less damage.0
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
Sure, lots of ways to rewire the brain - check out The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science, which was available in my library system so maybe yours too.
(Not diet-specific but a good read on neuroplasticity for the layman.)
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HippySkoppy wrote: »Thank you for the article it was interesting to read and understand more about the concept of hedonic hunger it isn't something with which I am familiar.
I do have one question though and am hoping those with a more understanding than me can help.
I got the impression that the researchers were saying that the response to this impulse diminishes after bariatric surgery.....the brain finally gets the changed messages of satiety from the gut.
So if one was to implement dietary changes and stop triggering the extra release of the reward pathways that lead to over-eating and obesity would that not mean that the person could successfully "re-wire" themselves without surgery......and we all can, given time and right circumstance overcome this hedonic over-eating?
I see where others have posted their successful ways of overcoming their particular triggers ie. limited quantities, not having said trigger in the home etc....So does that mean that now those brains have 're-wired' through hard-work and the willpower which the article said was not going to hold people back from these behaviours?
I felt too that the article was saying that the ONLY successful solutions for this issue are either targeted drug therapy or surgery....but I may have got that wrong.
That's not a way of overcoming it, it's a way of avoiding the issue. I mean, obviously, it works as long as you're at home, but that's pretty much it. For me total avoidance is the best way to guarantee that I will binge on it if I have the opportunity to eat what I've been avoiding (let's be fair though, I still 'avoid' a lot of things because they just don't fit easily in my days, in the sense that I might still eat them, but not as much as I'd like, so at things like buffets, for example, it often ends up badly).
But whether there's really a scientific explanation for it or not, the issue isn't really going anywhere, IMO. I mean, I see a lot of people tell others that they'll keep binging or overeating until they figure out WHY they do it, but when the answer is just 'because it's delicious', it's not that easy, lol. I kinda agree with the poster up there that said that sometimes, long term weight loss plans be damned, those cookies/donuts are totally worth it right now.
And yeah, it doesn't happen to everyone either, I know people who are totally satisfied with half a donut and it boggles my mind.
Yeah, there's variation in taste buds & a lot else. Ignoring donuts (or cookies, brownies, anything sweet) is the easiest thing in the world to me. I could have half a bite and put it down. Potato chips are another story.
Avoidance, or minimizing exposure, is a legit long-term strategy for a lot of people.
I've minimized potato chip exposure for going on 5 years. I have them very rarely now - no worries about it at all, don't miss them when they're not around, don't hate or fear them, don't hate myself for either being vulnerable to potato chips or for mostly banning them from my home. I'm not a raging potato chip lunatic out in the world, either. It just makes things a little easier than it would be if I brought them into the house on a regular basis. I've been doing this and maintaining successfully for years.
Why make things harder than they have to be? And what's the ultimate goal, really?0 -
robingmurphy wrote: »This is a new article at Scientific American I thought was interesting. How much does "hedonic hunger" drive your overeating? It's a big factor for me, and most of the time I just have to keep the high sugar/high fat foods out of my house to avoid it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-sugar-and-fat-trick-the-brain-into-wanting-more-food/
That's a great article! It really sounds like me and the fudge thing, because it's not really a matter of being hungry but just wanting the pleasure. Thank you!0 -
Lets face it it is just a nice way of saying a person is leading an hedonistic life with a focus on food.
I can't see anything that is revelatory, just a re-wording with a new label.
Cheers, h.0 -
If people have pretty labels they don't need to take responsibility0
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Now you know I've always been interested in the concept of eating addiction and annoyed by the use of "food addiction" as an excuse. I also dislike the underpinning rat studies. I know you have experience in the field of addiction and I only speak as a layman but I do believe that the treatment options differ from substance addiction to behavioural and that is an important distinction
But I think I still stand by my comments: for most, taking responsibility for their actions around food, internalising rather than externalising can go a long way to changing overeating
And I do think "hedonistic eating" risks becoming a pretty label to latch on to that implies that it's not my fault
There is too much it's not your fault and not enough "take responsibility, make the changes, commit and it gradually becomes easier as your habits change"0 -
@middlehaitch and @rabbitjb - you are both people I very much respect on these boards, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The article looks at the possibility of shifting the focus from the currently popular (and misinformed, in my opinion) idea that "sugar/carbs/fat/whatever are EVIL and BAD and ADDICTIVE" and instead look at eating patterns overall.
It's true that sugar/fat/salt makes foods far more palatable, and palatable foods are most likely to be part of hedonic eating, but they are not the entirety of the problem...and that's the point of the article.
When people focus only on (for example) sugar, they tend to focus away from eating patterns overall, and they think that if they could only cut sugar out of their diet, then their weight problems would be solved.
But appetite - and specifically hedonic hunger - are driven by many factors that are specific to each individual: things like memory, association, aromas, social settings, beliefs, advertisements, and emotions (just to name a few).
I'd argue that increasing our understanding of hedonic hunger and how it plays into our personal eating patterns is indeed taking responsibility for our eating choices.
I just wanted to throw those thoughts out here because admittedly I find the research on appetite to be so interesting...and I think as we grow to better understand it, we'll have more tools to help people who are struggling with weight and eating disorders.
Good comment as always caitwn..
I'll agree and disagree.
In the context you provided (using the study to further understand, etc) I agree can be empowering.
But I'm afraid too many (probably likely with the 'help' of click bait website headlines) will simply latch on to the label and concept that 'oh noes...my brain's been rewired, I can't help myself from eating this entire box of chocolates'0 -
@catiwin got to admit I was a little fly on my reply- put it down to Christmas starting early
The article was worth the read, and I look forward to further research to substantiate the arguments and/or address brain reverse re-wiring.
Happy Christmas, h.0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »@middlehaitch and @rabbitjb - you are both people I very much respect on these boards, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The article looks at the possibility of shifting the focus from the currently popular (and misinformed, in my opinion) idea that "sugar/carbs/fat/whatever are EVIL and BAD and ADDICTIVE" and instead look at eating patterns overall.
It's true that sugar/fat/salt makes foods far more palatable, and palatable foods are most likely to be part of hedonic eating, but they are not the entirety of the problem...and that's the point of the article.
When people focus only on (for example) sugar, they tend to focus away from eating patterns overall, and they think that if they could only cut sugar out of their diet, then their weight problems would be solved.
But appetite - and specifically hedonic hunger - are driven by many factors that are specific to each individual: things like memory, association, aromas, social settings, beliefs, advertisements, and emotions (just to name a few).
I'd argue that increasing our understanding of hedonic hunger and how it plays into our personal eating patterns is indeed taking responsibility for our eating choices.
I just wanted to throw those thoughts out here because admittedly I find the research on appetite to be so interesting...and I think as we grow to better understand it, we'll have more tools to help people who are struggling with weight and eating disorders.
Good comment as always caitwn..
I'll agree and disagree.
In the context you provided (using the study to further understand, etc) I agree can be empowering.
But I'm afraid too many (probably likely with the 'help' of click bait website headlines) will simply latch on to the label and concept that 'oh noes...my brain's been rewired, I can't help myself from eating this entire box of chocolates'
I think this is already happening on this very site.
I agree with Caitwn that hedonic hunger is an interesting thing to read about, and that it's a very complicated/personal issue.0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »@middlehaitch and @rabbitjb - you are both people I very much respect on these boards, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The article looks at the possibility of shifting the focus from the currently popular (and misinformed, in my opinion) idea that "sugar/carbs/fat/whatever are EVIL and BAD and ADDICTIVE" and instead look at eating patterns overall.
It's true that sugar/fat/salt makes foods far more palatable, and palatable foods are most likely to be part of hedonic eating, but they are not the entirety of the problem...and that's the point of the article.
When people focus only on (for example) sugar, they tend to focus away from eating patterns overall, and they think that if they could only cut sugar out of their diet, then their weight problems would be solved.
But appetite - and specifically hedonic hunger - are driven by many factors that are specific to each individual: things like memory, association, aromas, social settings, beliefs, advertisements, and emotions (just to name a few).
I'd argue that increasing our understanding of hedonic hunger and how it plays into our personal eating patterns is indeed taking responsibility for our eating choices.
I just wanted to throw those thoughts out here because admittedly I find the research on appetite to be so interesting...and I think as we grow to better understand it, we'll have more tools to help people who are struggling with weight and eating disorders.
Good comment as always caitwn..
I'll agree and disagree.
In the context you provided (using the study to further understand, etc) I agree can be empowering.
But I'm afraid too many (probably likely with the 'help' of click bait website headlines) will simply latch on to the label and concept that 'oh noes...my brain's been rewired, I can't help myself from eating this entire box of chocolates'
I haven't noticed that attitude here. When people think they are addicted, they post looking for help. I think the same would be true if people thought they were wired for chocolate - "I'm wired for chocolate - how do I rewire my brain?"
I do agree that @Caitwn has great comments!
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What I see a lot that I consider unhelpful (and annoying) is people assuming that there is something special about them that makes this a lot harder than for others -- that they are compelled to eat when others are not. (And I have definitely seen defeatist attitudes related to that -- I think many don't really want to do what they need to do to lose weight but feel like they should or others are judging them for not, and so they post "I'm addicted.")
Anyway, I don't see hedonic hunger as about addiction at all. In fact, I think it's probably just being a human for the most part, for the reasons I posted above. I agree with Caitwn that understanding it and learning to deal is important, but not this idea that if one experiences it -- which I think most do -- one has something special wrong with them or is an "addict." I also think the key thing to consider is that we live in an environment that makes it an issue to deal with and encourages it. But liking to eat tasty food does not mean you have something wrong with you, even if you easily eat in excess. The problem is that people have trouble distinguishing between real hunger and wanting to eat for other reasons. (I find it helpful to eat to a schedule and just remind myself of when I'm eating again, which makes the notion of real hunger ridiculous most of the time.)0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »@middlehaitch and @rabbitjb - you are both people I very much respect on these boards, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The article looks at the possibility of shifting the focus from the currently popular (and misinformed, in my opinion) idea that "sugar/carbs/fat/whatever are EVIL and BAD and ADDICTIVE" and instead look at eating patterns overall.
It's true that sugar/fat/salt makes foods far more palatable, and palatable foods are most likely to be part of hedonic eating, but they are not the entirety of the problem...and that's the point of the article.
When people focus only on (for example) sugar, they tend to focus away from eating patterns overall, and they think that if they could only cut sugar out of their diet, then their weight problems would be solved.
But appetite - and specifically hedonic hunger - are driven by many factors that are specific to each individual: things like memory, association, aromas, social settings, beliefs, advertisements, and emotions (just to name a few).
I'd argue that increasing our understanding of hedonic hunger and how it plays into our personal eating patterns is indeed taking responsibility for our eating choices.
I just wanted to throw those thoughts out here because admittedly I find the research on appetite to be so interesting...and I think as we grow to better understand it, we'll have more tools to help people who are struggling with weight and eating disorders.
Good comment as always caitwn..
I'll agree and disagree.
In the context you provided (using the study to further understand, etc) I agree can be empowering.
But I'm afraid too many (probably likely with the 'help' of click bait website headlines) will simply latch on to the label and concept that 'oh noes...my brain's been rewired, I can't help myself from eating this entire box of chocolates'
I haven't noticed that attitude here.
Which is why I spoke in the future tense 0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »@middlehaitch and @rabbitjb - you are both people I very much respect on these boards, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The article looks at the possibility of shifting the focus from the currently popular (and misinformed, in my opinion) idea that "sugar/carbs/fat/whatever are EVIL and BAD and ADDICTIVE" and instead look at eating patterns overall.
It's true that sugar/fat/salt makes foods far more palatable, and palatable foods are most likely to be part of hedonic eating, but they are not the entirety of the problem...and that's the point of the article.
When people focus only on (for example) sugar, they tend to focus away from eating patterns overall, and they think that if they could only cut sugar out of their diet, then their weight problems would be solved.
But appetite - and specifically hedonic hunger - are driven by many factors that are specific to each individual: things like memory, association, aromas, social settings, beliefs, advertisements, and emotions (just to name a few).
I'd argue that increasing our understanding of hedonic hunger and how it plays into our personal eating patterns is indeed taking responsibility for our eating choices.
I just wanted to throw those thoughts out here because admittedly I find the research on appetite to be so interesting...and I think as we grow to better understand it, we'll have more tools to help people who are struggling with weight and eating disorders.
Good comment as always caitwn..
I'll agree and disagree.
In the context you provided (using the study to further understand, etc) I agree can be empowering.
But I'm afraid too many (probably likely with the 'help' of click bait website headlines) will simply latch on to the label and concept that 'oh noes...my brain's been rewired, I can't help myself from eating this entire box of chocolates'
I haven't noticed that attitude here.
Which is why I spoke in the future tense
Gotcha 0
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