Absolute smallest amount of reps and sets for strength?

cafeaulait7

What do y'all think is the smallest amount of sets (particularly) someone could use to gain strength in a muscle? I don't mean should or ideally. I mean the bare minimum that will still strengthen a muscle, hypothetically. Hypothetically but with some science, tho What do you think?

Assume the muscle is unusually weak and it's being targeted by the lift. We're talking rhomboids or lower traps, not like glutes.

I don't mean to be coy with the question, but I am really interested in this particular question and not in general recommendations for programs. I know what is ideal and agree

lisalsd1

3x3?

AnvilHead

One. There have been studies showing that newbies can make significant strength gains on one set of exercises per muscle. Three sets showed a larger strength gain, but the difference wasn't linear.

I don't recall if they addressed reps, but I'm guessing 3-5 reps would do the trick, especially given your hypothetical of an unusually weak muscle.

Cherimoose

Yeah, one heavy set of a few rows and deadlifts would give more strength than zero sets.

Why rhomboids & lower traps?

rankinsect

AnvilHead wrote: »

One. There have been studies showing that newbies can make significant strength gains on one set of exercises per muscle. Three sets showed a larger strength gain, but the difference wasn't linear.

I don't recall if they addressed reps, but I'm guessing 3-5 reps would do the trick, especially given your hypothetical of an unusually weak muscle.

Yeah, I read one strength training book (can't remember which one it was now) and the author basically said newbies really didn't gain much benefit from doing more than one set of anything - you get better returns using the time to perform a different exercise set instead, precisely because of diminishing returns on the subsequent sets.

For reps, you're probably right. Lower reps at higher weight tends to build strength, while higher reps at lower weight (still progressively overloading muscle, though) tends to build volume.

DopeItUp

AnvilHead wrote: »

One. There have been studies showing that newbies can make significant strength gains on one set of exercises per muscle. Three sets showed a larger strength gain, but the difference wasn't linear.

I don't recall if they addressed reps, but I'm guessing 3-5 reps would do the trick, especially given your hypothetical of an unusually weak muscle.

Yep. I'd say one max-effort set (not counting warm-up sets of course) is very workable for most people. In fact, it's what 5/3/1 is based off of and it's one of the most popular programs out there.

cafeaulait7

Thank y'all so, so much!! It's great info. Any more knowledge about that is awesome, too. I caught a sinus thing and have been down for a few days, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate the responses

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/profile/usercard/47919086 Cherimoose (did I do the @ right?)
I actually chose those muscles for personal reasons.

Full disclosure: yeah, I have a neck/back problem that I've had PT on and off each year for over a decade. It's always the same thing at PT, and it doesn't help enough at all. There's nothing in my neck or spine than can get actually hurt with lifting (or much movement in general ); it's just normally impossible due to the intense inflammation and pain it causes. I'm already on multiple prescriptions for it, tried surgical nerve blocks, etc, so it isn't an amount of pain that is a good idea for daily life, lol.

So at various physios, they've had me on baby weight/no weight with tons of reps. That hurts so badly, too, and doesn't seem to do much.

So, since the pain is a given with PT, I thought I'd see how some actual weight might work if there were a minimum that sounded doable. Not big weight! By now certain muscles are practically atrophied, so it'll be light. The condition makes me way overuse my upper traps and extensors, and my scapular stabilizers are a mess with winging scaps and the like. I have to strengthen them. Like I said, the high rep-no weight stuff hurts badly too, so why not give it a shot for just some higher pain temporarily? I'm used to high pain by now! If it doesn't last too many days, I'm fine.

Any advice you have for that kind of a problem is appreciated, though! PTs and docs don't tend to get creative on it, or it's just a tricky one or something. It's certainly a PITA

I do great (and normal!) lifts for all sorts of other things, btw. I've worked around everything else (yay!), but this is the year to really address the mean, mean muscles, too. I'm going to figure this out one day!

The exercises I'd do take the upper traps out as much as possible (they are always spasmed and overused). It's heavy isolation (PT moves, but now they'd be weighted in a strength protocol) for the ones I never can use.

I'm totally cool on lower back and all of the front of the upper body; even my delts are fine in isolation. It's my neck and around and between my scapulas where the huge issue lies. My extensors rock, lol, but even they spasm from having to carry the load from the mid-thoracic region. I just need some strength there, period.

Cherimoose

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

Any advice you have for that kind of a problem is appreciated, though!

You're asking for advice to treat a medical condition, which isn't a wise thing to do online. Especially since you didn't state the diagnosis and cause, which helps determine the treatment.

But generally speaking, if i wanted to isolate the scapular retractors, i'd first stretch the scapula elevators and pectorals for 30+ seconds, then use a seated row machine with a shoulder-width handle or wider. I'd use a small range-of-motion, starting with elbows at the side, then bringing the elbows behind the back. If the upper traps work too much, i'd have someone push the shoulders down while doing the row, or wear a belt to get the same effect.

jimmmer

Rhomboids and lower traps respond well to isometrics. They're often just underactivated and over stretched due to phone and deskjockey type activities.

Couple of sets of isometric holds with bands (say W's). Or you could toss in a set or two of Dan John style batwings with a pair of pretty light DB's.

You could basically chuck light activation stuff like this inbetween sets of other stuff and you'll sort out your rhomboids in the time you'd normally be sat around...

MommyMeggo

When doing reps of whatever-squats, dumbells, crunches, etc. I dont really start counting. I go until I feel the burn and then push myself for an additional 5, 10, etc. I let my body dictate my reps vs an arbitrary number. Then repeat the set 2 or 3 times depending on the movement,etc. Especially as a newb to fitness this is what is works for me.

jimmmer

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

Thank y'all so, so much!! It's great info. Any more knowledge about that is awesome, too. I caught a sinus thing and have been down for a few days, but I can't tell you how much I appreciate the responses

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/profile/usercard/47919086 Cherimoose (did I do the @ right?)
I actually chose those muscles for personal reasons.

Full disclosure: yeah, I have a neck/back problem that I've had PT on and off each year for over a decade. It's always the same thing at PT, and it doesn't help enough at all. There's nothing in my neck or spine than can get actually hurt with lifting (or much movement in general ); it's just normally impossible due to the intense inflammation and pain it causes. I'm already on multiple prescriptions for it, tried surgical nerve blocks, etc, so it isn't an amount of pain that is a good idea for daily life, lol.

So at various physios, they've had me on baby weight/no weight with tons of reps. That hurts so badly, too, and doesn't seem to do much.

So, since the pain is a given with PT, I thought I'd see how some actual weight might work if there were a minimum that sounded doable. Not big weight! By now certain muscles are practically atrophied, so it'll be light. The condition makes me way overuse my upper traps and extensors, and my scapular stabilizers are a mess with winging scaps and the like. I have to strengthen them. Like I said, the high rep-no weight stuff hurts badly too, so why not give it a shot for just some higher pain temporarily? I'm used to high pain by now! If it doesn't last too many days, I'm fine.

Any advice you have for that kind of a problem is appreciated, though! PTs and docs don't tend to get creative on it, or it's just a tricky one or something. It's certainly a PITA

I do great (and normal!) lifts for all sorts of other things, btw. I've worked around everything else (yay!), but this is the year to really address the mean, mean muscles, too. I'm going to figure this out one day!

The exercises I'd do take the upper traps out as much as possible (they are always spasmed and overused). It's heavy isolation (PT moves, but now they'd be weighted in a strength protocol) for the ones I never can use.

I'm totally cool on lower back and all of the front of the upper body; even my delts are fine in isolation. It's my neck and around and between my scapulas where the huge issue lies. My extensors rock, lol, but even they spasm from having to carry the load from the mid-thoracic region. I just need some strength there, period.

I missed this post.

Sounds like you've got some trigger points in your upper traps. I'd get a ball into these spots (google will bring up the places, techniques and pain referral patterns). It'll take a few days of addressing those points 5-6 times a day.

The next thing I'd do (once you work out the trap/neck trigger points) is to google Eric Cressey's shoulder saver warm up. Stuff like the thoracic clock, wall slides (done the cressey way) will make sure everything's moving right. The shoulder needs to work in a rhythm - which you lose when things go wrong - you need some movement drills to reteach the right movement rhythm or you'll just end up back where you are...

Warchortle

1 x 0

cafeaulait7

Thank y'all for the new ideas, too! Excellent.

Cherimoose wrote: »

cafeaulait7 wrote: »

Any advice you have for that kind of a problem is appreciated, though!

You're asking for advice to treat a medical condition, which isn't a wise thing to do online. Especially since you didn't state the diagnosis and cause, which helps determine the treatment.

But generally speaking, if i wanted to isolate the scapular retractors, i'd first stretch the scapula elevators and pectorals for 30+ seconds, then use a seated row machine with a shoulder-width handle or wider. I'd use a small range-of-motion, starting with elbows at the side, then bringing the elbows behind the back. If the upper traps work too much, i'd have someone push the shoulders down while doing the row, or wear a belt to get the same effect.

I really like that band idea. I know the advice will vary, but trial-and-error has yielded my best results so far with having this thing for so long. I did make sure to ask my docs what could actually hurt it, and I've had physio for years and did learn many things (mostly about what not to do).

The diagnosis is mixed. I have facet joint syndrome in my neck, which is my main diagnosis. But then I had some weakness in my neck already from Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Cord, which is a fancy term for not having the doctors diagnose my B12 deficiency before some nerve problems set in forever. That made my neck weak for 10 years before the facet joint stuff. I wish I'd trained my neck in between the two! I had lost a lot of muscle before diagnosis and got down to 85 lbs. I got back up to 130 within months of therapy, but I didn't do anything that would strengthen a neck.

I still have some loss of balance, my feet don't register all vibrations on the fork, and my left hand isn't great at fine motor skills, but the vast majority of my nerve symptoms were cleared up with the B12 therapy. I was very pleased with the recovery! But then this neck/upper back thing is a PITA for sure.