2nd opinion on trainers nutrition advice

mrp56839

I guess this could go here or on the food&nutrition board... I just need to bounce a conversation I had with my trainer off a couple of people more knowledgeable than me. It's not that I doubt him, just want a second, third, fourth opinion maybe. He may know exercise, but it doesn't mean he gets the nutrition part right.

It all kinda started when I confessed that it's taking the full 2, sometimes 3 days for the DOMS to disappear even after 3 months. The conversation turned into a critique of my diet (what'd you have for breakfast? Where's your protein?) and the recommendation that I go to the 1g per lb of body weight and add BCAAs to the mix. "Just trust me. It'll help you." He says.

First, I'm a 36yo mom with 40-50 more lbs to lose. I'm strength training with him because I enjoy feeling a little bit badass twice a week. It's helped with the weight loss too, but I have no desire to be a professional bodybuilder. Nowhere in this conversation was anything about calories, deficits, weight loss (which I've been successful with - 27# in 12weeks). It was all, your muscles aren't recovering because you're not giving them what they need.

So lets do the math with his recommendations and you'll see why I'm struggling. I'm set at 1#/week loss, sedentary (desk job) and I don't eat back lifting cals since there's really not many earned anyway, according to the folks here. my allotment is 1560 calories a day and I've cross checked that against Scooby and it was in the ballpark.

200g of protein (1g/#) x 4cals/g = 800 cals.
.4g of fat x 200lbs x 9 cals = 720 cals
Fill the rest of your MFP daily cals with carbs:
1580 -720-800 = 60 cals

????? What am I not getting right? Or is his info wrong?? Am i too focused on keeping my deficit? Never mind the third degree that I got about my diet - I'm clearly doing some right - but I feel like 200g of protein is completely unattainable when I struggle to hit 85g now.

ThickMcRunFast

mrp56839 wrote: »

I guess this could go here or on the food&nutrition board... I just need to bounce a conversation I had with my trainer off a couple of people more knowledgeable than me. It's not that I doubt him, just want a second, third, fourth opinion maybe. He may know exercise, but it doesn't mean he gets the nutrition part right.

It all kinda started when I confessed that it's taking the full 2, sometimes 3 days for the DOMS to disappear even after 3 months. The conversation turned into a critique of my diet (what'd you have for breakfast? Where's your protein?) and the recommendation that I go to the 1g per lb of body weight and add BCAAs to the mix. "Just trust me. It'll help you." He says.

First, I'm a 36yo mom with 40-50 more lbs to lose. I'm strength training with him because I enjoy feeling a little bit badass twice a week. It's helped with the weight loss too, but I have no desire to be a professional bodybuilder. Nowhere in this conversation was anything about calories, deficits, weight loss (which I've been successful with - 27# in 12weeks). It was all, your muscles aren't recovering because you're not giving them what they need.

So lets do the math with his recommendations and you'll see why I'm struggling. I'm set at 1#/week loss, sedentary (desk job) and I don't eat back lifting cals since there's really not many earned anyway, according to the folks here. my allotment is 1560 calories a day and I've cross checked that against Scooby and it was in the ballpark.

200g of protein (1g/#) x 4cals/g = 800 cals.
.4g of fat x 200lbs x 9 cals = 720 cals
Fill the rest of your MFP daily cals with carbs:
1580 -720-800 = 60 cals

????? What am I not getting right? Or is his info wrong?? Am i too focused on keeping my deficit? Never mind the third degree that I got about my diet - I'm clearly doing some right - but I feel like 200g of protein is completely unattainable when I struggle to hit 85g now.

Chances are he meant 1g per pound lean body mass. So for instance, if you weigh 200lbs, but are 25% body fat (don't know what you are, but we'll just use this as an example), you would have 150lbs lean mass, and that should be your protein goal. 200g is a lot.

DavPul

it's .8 per pound of body weight, but if you've got 50ish pounds to lose, you'll do fine somewhere in the 140-150 gram of protein per day range.

the protein won't turn you into a bodybuilder while you're in a calorie deficit. what it will do is aid your muscle recovery and help you retain lean body mass while losing so that that majority of your weight loss comes from body fat, not LBM. so your trainer is correct, save for the fact that either you or he/she missed the detail about either going .8 of body weight or 1 gram per pound of LBM.

Azdak

That's a butt load of protein. It's not necessarily harmful, but it doesn't look like a balanced diet. If you are working out hard, 60 cal/day from carbs is not enough. I have seen a couple of studies that suggest BCAAs might result in some decrease in DOMS, but, as is so often the case, these were done on subjects doing a lot more intensive lifting than you are doing, so extreme caution needs to be exercised before trying to generalize the results (but that's probably where he is getting his info). I would also question what kind of workouts you are doing that result in that degree of DOMS.

holothuroidea

From the information you've given, for your weight and lifestyle 60-80g of protein/day should be adequate (based on the official recommendations).

Since you're eating a calorie deficit for weight loss, your strength training goals should be muscle retention (and feeling badass), not gaining muscle or significant strength. Your slow recovery is probably due to a lack of calories, not a lack of protein. It sounds like your strength training routine has too much volume or intensity for your current goals.

The typical bodybuilding recommendation is 1g per pound of LEAN mass for men, and slightly less for women. If you weigh 200lbs and have about 30% body fat, that means you have 140 lbs of lean mass and would eat 100-120g of protein. This is recommendation is meant for people eating a calorie surplus in an effort to gain muscle. It is not healthy in the long term for protein to take up more than 40% of your calories, or to be your primary energy source.

AnvilHead

DavPul wrote: »

it's .8 per pound of body weight, but if you've got 50ish pounds to lose, you'll do fine somewhere in the 140-150 gram of protein per day range.

the protein won't turn you into a bodybuilder while you're in a calorie deficit. what it will do is aid your muscle recovery and help you retain lean body mass while losing so that that majority of your weight loss comes from body fat, not LBM. so your trainer is correct, save for the fact that either you or he/she missed the detail about either going .8 of body weight or 1 gram per pound of LBM.

Cosign on all the above. Your trainer is using cookie-cutter recommendations, but they're not bad. They can just use some tweaking when a person is significantly overweight, as DavPul outlined above.

holothuroidea wrote: »

From the information you've given, for your weight and lifestyle 60-80g of protein/day should be adequate (based on the official recommendations).

Since you're eating a calorie deficit for weight loss, your strength training goals should be muscle retention (and feeling badass), not gaining muscle or significant strength. Your slow recovery is probably due to a lack of calories, not a lack of protein. It sounds like your strength training routine has too much volume or intensity for your current goals.

The typical bodybuilding recommendation is 1g per pound of LEAN mass for men, and slightly less for women. If you weigh 200lbs and have about 30% body fat, that means you have 140 lbs of lean mass and would eat 100-120g of protein. This is recommendation is meant for people eating a calorie surplus in an effort to gain muscle. It is not healthy in the long term for protein to take up more than 40% of your calories, or to be your primary energy source.

What's your source for the bolded? I've never seen anybody worth their salt make a blanket statement that over 40% protein is "not healthy in the long term". Would love to see a credible link to a study.

In addition to bodybuilders, people in caloric deficit (especially while involved in an exercise program) also have elevated protein needs compared to general population, as weight loss is catabolic by nature.

DavPul

holothuroidea wrote: »

From the information you've given, for your weight and lifestyle 60-80g of protein/day should be adequate (based on the official recommendations).

Since you're eating a calorie deficit for weight loss, your strength training goals should be muscle retention (and feeling badass), not gaining muscle or significant strength. Your slow recovery is probably due to a lack of calories, not a lack of protein. It sounds like your strength training routine has too much volume or intensity for your current goals.

The typical bodybuilding recommendation is 1g per pound of LEAN mass for men, and slightly less for women. If you weigh 200lbs and have about 30% body fat, that means you have 140 lbs of lean mass and would eat 100-120g of protein. This is recommendation is meant for people eating a calorie surplus in an effort to gain muscle. It is not healthy in the long term for protein to take up more than 40% of your calories, or to be your primary energy source.

ORLY to the bolded.

You have no idea how difficult it was for me to not just highlight the entire thing.

holothuroidea

Please explain to me what a diet that had 40% protein would look like without supplements for a 200lb woman eating a calorie deficit, and explain to me how it could be sustainable and nutritionally complete long term.

It was not a blanket statement, it was a statement intended for the OP based on her info and goals.

I have had this conversation before. My main reference for most of the things I say about nutrition are based on a solid background in biochemistry. My only response to "SOURCES" retorts or "cite me a study!" comments is a lecture on scientific literacy, but that is not what you want from me.

When I say official recommendations, that is exactly what I mean. Recommendations based on the consensus of nutritionists based on the information that they currently have, and if you don't know what they are I am sorry but I'm not here to do your google searches for you.

lemmie177

ThickMcRunFast wrote: »

mrp56839 wrote: »

I guess this could go here or on the food&nutrition board... I just need to bounce a conversation I had with my trainer off a couple of people more knowledgeable than me. It's not that I doubt him, just want a second, third, fourth opinion maybe. He may know exercise, but it doesn't mean he gets the nutrition part right.

It all kinda started when I confessed that it's taking the full 2, sometimes 3 days for the DOMS to disappear even after 3 months. The conversation turned into a critique of my diet (what'd you have for breakfast? Where's your protein?) and the recommendation that I go to the 1g per lb of body weight and add BCAAs to the mix. "Just trust me. It'll help you." He says.

First, I'm a 36yo mom with 40-50 more lbs to lose. I'm strength training with him because I enjoy feeling a little bit badass twice a week. It's helped with the weight loss too, but I have no desire to be a professional bodybuilder. Nowhere in this conversation was anything about calories, deficits, weight loss (which I've been successful with - 27# in 12weeks). It was all, your muscles aren't recovering because you're not giving them what they need.

So lets do the math with his recommendations and you'll see why I'm struggling. I'm set at 1#/week loss, sedentary (desk job) and I don't eat back lifting cals since there's really not many earned anyway, according to the folks here. my allotment is 1560 calories a day and I've cross checked that against Scooby and it was in the ballpark.

200g of protein (1g/#) x 4cals/g = 800 cals.
.4g of fat x 200lbs x 9 cals = 720 cals
Fill the rest of your MFP daily cals with carbs:
1580 -720-800 = 60 cals

????? What am I not getting right? Or is his info wrong?? Am i too focused on keeping my deficit? Never mind the third degree that I got about my diet - I'm clearly doing some right - but I feel like 200g of protein is completely unattainable when I struggle to hit 85g now.

Chances are he meant 1g per pound lean body mass. So for instance, if you weigh 200lbs, but are 25% body fat (don't know what you are, but we'll just use this as an example), you would have 150lbs lean mass, and that should be your protein goal. 200g is a lot.

agree with this ^

1g protein per lb bodyweight is not unheard of, but its more for athletes or generally ppl with low bodyfat. Try calculating with 1g/lb lean body mass to see if that diet seems more reasonable/sustainable for you. With this new calculation, there'll be no need to go off your deficit. Also, unless you plan on taking them for fasted training, BCAAs would just be a really expensive source of protein.

It could also be totally normal for your DOMS to take that long to recover from. There's a lot of variation in DOMS from person to person. That being said, you have nothing to lose by trying it out for a bit.

DavPul

holothuroidea wrote: »

Please explain to me what a diet that had 40% protein would look like without supplements for a 200lb woman eating a calorie deficit, and explain to me how it could be sustainable and nutritionally complete long term.

It was not a blanket statement, it was a statement intended for the OP based on her info and goals.

I have had this conversation before. My main reference for most of the things I say about nutrition are based on a solid background in biochemistry. My only response to "SOURCES" retorts or "cite me a study!" comments is a lecture on scientific literacy, but that is not what you want from me.

When I say official recommendations, that is exactly what I mean. Recommendations based on the consensus of nutritionists based on the information that they currently have, and if you don't know what they are I am sorry but I'm not here to do your google searches for you.

ninerbuff

DOMS happens because the muscle isn't conditioned to whatever exercise(s) you're performing. If he's having you do a different workout each session, then DOMS for a couple of days isn't unusual. Even just changing resistance and/or rep range could result in DOMS with the same exercises the week before.
As for nutrition, most was covered above. But basically, weight loss is calorie deficit on a consistent basis. If muscles aren't recovering correctly, it usually comes down to lack of protein, inadequate amount of water in the body, lack of rest, or training the same muscles too intensely on a daily basis.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

LKArgh

mrp56839 wrote: »

I guess this could go here or on the food&nutrition board... I just need to bounce a conversation I had with my trainer off a couple of people more knowledgeable than me. It's not that I doubt him, just want a second, third, fourth opinion maybe. He may know exercise, but it doesn't mean he gets the nutrition part right.

It all kinda started when I confessed that it's taking the full 2, sometimes 3 days for the DOMS to disappear even after 3 months. The conversation turned into a critique of my diet (what'd you have for breakfast? Where's your protein?) and the recommendation that I go to the 1g per lb of body weight and add BCAAs to the mix. "Just trust me. It'll help you." He says.

First, I'm a 36yo mom with 40-50 more lbs to lose. I'm strength training with him because I enjoy feeling a little bit badass twice a week. It's helped with the weight loss too, but I have no desire to be a professional bodybuilder. Nowhere in this conversation was anything about calories, deficits, weight loss (which I've been successful with - 27# in 12weeks). It was all, your muscles aren't recovering because you're not giving them what they need.

So lets do the math with his recommendations and you'll see why I'm struggling. I'm set at 1#/week loss, sedentary (desk job) and I don't eat back lifting cals since there's really not many earned anyway, according to the folks here. my allotment is 1560 calories a day and I've cross checked that against Scooby and it was in the ballpark.

200g of protein (1g/#) x 4cals/g = 800 cals.
.4g of fat x 200lbs x 9 cals = 720 cals
Fill the rest of your MFP daily cals with carbs:
1580 -720-800 = 60 cals

????? What am I not getting right? Or is his info wrong?? Am i too focused on keeping my deficit? Never mind the third degree that I got about my diet - I'm clearly doing some right - but I feel like 200g of protein is completely unattainable when I struggle to hit 85g now.

You are not getting DOMS because of your diet. The question is if you like this type of workouts and the DOMS that follows, or if you need to change something in your training. I get the feeling your trainer simply is not customising the program to your needs, or does not understand your needs that well.

mrp56839

Thank you guys. I knew something wasn't quite right when the math didnt work out. I can try to incorporate a little more protein into each meal, but I really feel like my choices themselves are solid, balanced and sustainable for me - at least 90% of them!

I was never complaining about the doms - I go in with a valiant effort and considering I started with a base of pretty much nothing, I figure it's the cost of getting to "something." Its really just in my arms and shoulders and primarily on my weaker side. As long as I can still wash my hair, its all good.