Potential protein needs and calculating

heybales

Was asked to stick this out here for comments.

40/30/30 is a good rough start for getting good macro ratios down - sometimes.

When TDEE and eating goal is high, 30% for protein could be causing a goal that is way more than needed, or desired, since it can be expensive, difficult, and if body isn't decently healthy, an overload on your system converting excess to energy.

Protein and fat are both macro's better set by amount per weight or Lean Body Mass (LBM). Carbs can have rest of the calories.

But how much do you need, or how much useful?

One common Protein recommendation is 1 gram per pound of LBM. That is rounding up of a metric conversion from the actual recommendation of 2 g / kg / LBM. It would actually be 0.91 g / lb / LBM.

But to avoid the whole LBM aspect, some just say 1 g / lb of current weight, or perhaps goal weight.
Both those can give very inflated values over what is needed. Which means you are just cutting out carbs that actually can be useful depending on your workouts.

Here is an article based on research with body builders, so the focus was on them. So those actually eating in excess to build muscle, or cutting and needing to maintain for competition. And they are at healthy weight and bodyfat levels already.

So do you need these high levels while just trying to maintain muscle mass? It does show you that you may have more range available than straight 30% of eating goal, which I've found for many is overkill compared to the 20%, sometimes even 15% if large TDEE right now.

http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Here are some highlights, article has more info of course, like why certain studies were excluded in the discussion.

Notice this is talking mainly about grams per pound of weight, not just LBM.

I only included them if they controlled for sweating and dietary adaptation periods.

• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ‘to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe.

The picture below summarizes the literature. As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits.

A final objection that is often heard is that these values may be true during bulking or maintenance periods, but cutting requires more protein to maintain muscle mass. Walberg et al. (1988) studied cutting weightlifters and they still found 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass.

There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up. There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels.

My0WNinspiration

Very informative. I've been using my goal weight for my protein intake....works just fine for me.

jayrudq

I have a tendency to drift towards higher protein because I find it more satisfying and filling. Protein calories are calories that work well for me. So are fat calories, but when I am counting - like now - those lean protein calories are the biggest bang for the buck, so to speak. It isn't just about maintaining and building muscle mass for me. Are you worried about eating too much protein?

jofjltncb6

In...

...to figure out later if this mostly supports my general approach of 0.85-1g/LBM.


(ETA: Well, I guess I should have said what my general approach *was* when I was eating at a slight deficit. I just realized that when I bumped up my calories to a surplus a few weeks ago, I never made the necessary adjustments to my ratios...which means I'm eating WAY too much protein and WAY too much fat. Or said another way, I'm covering my minimum optimal amounts for these to macros. Yeah, I'm okay with that.)

heybales

I have a tendency to drift towards higher protein because I find it more satisfying and filling. Protein calories are calories that work well for me. So are fat calories, but when I am counting - like now - those lean protein calories are the biggest bang for the buck, so to speak. It isn't just about maintaining and building muscle mass for me. Are you worried about eating too much protein?

Well, this was for those that talked about how hard to get in their 30%, when for those having big eating goals, it was overkill.

But even many rec's to eat 1 g / lb current weight or goal weight is overkill.

All a part of setting realistic goals.

Notice nowhere is this about max that should be eaten, rather what is a decent minimum. Want more for satiety, eat up!

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

Thanks this has confirmed the macro settings that I have been using. :flowerforyou:

SideSteel

Well, this was for those that talked about how hard to get in their 30%, when for those having big eating goals, it was overkill.

But even many rec's to eat 1 g / lb current weight or goal weight is overkill.

It's overkill per the set of studies Menno chose to include, but he apparently chose to exclude a few studies that may indicate otherwise. Perhaps he eliminates them for specific shortcomings but I can't comment on that.

To quote Alan Aragon:

I agree with most of the article. However, it's missing some evidence that indeed points to the possibility that natties can benefit from over 0.82 g/lb. Mind you, there's not a lot of research supporting this; 3 studies, if that - showing positive results from 2.7 g/kg (Willoughby et al, surplus), 2.3 g/kg (Mettler et al, deficit), and 2.6 g/kg (Hoffman et al, maintenance). These studies - like ALL studies - are not free of limitations, but they exist & were not discussed in the article. In addition, measurement of N-balance tends to yield erroneously positive balances due to an underestimation of nitrogen loss. Heck, even Stuart Phillips, known for being super-conservative, acknowledged the ultility of 1.8-2.7 g/kg for athletes in a deficit in a paper published withn the past year.

If you'd like to see a fantastic conversation between Menno, Alan, and Eric Helms (and others), see here. FWIW I think Eric and Alan do a good job in pointing out why the .82 number menno lists may not be sufficient in specific contexts:
https://www.facebook.com/nobull****bodybuildingverified/posts/549313921749876

Now having said all of that, .82g/lb probably is sufficient for the majority. Lean athletes trying to get very lean might be one context where I could see merit in going over for reasons beyond satiety.

EDIT: Sorry for the ****, that's Ian's page, so you'll have to fill in those stars to get the link to work.

SRH7

Interesting stuff.

CoderGal

Thanks for posting this for me heybales. Turns out I think my train of thought was right. If you top out at .82, I'm fine with sticking to my .8, as a normal average healthy weight human being who wouldn't need more, one would hope anyway.

I'll also steal this from another one of your posts.
"Notice this one is mainly regarding grams per total weight, not LBM. "
"And of course specific to lifters already at healthy bodyfat levels. But still interesting what levels prevented loss during cuts, and more experienced needed less"

DopeItUp

Personally I think this is all a bunch of hogwash. I follow Pu_'s recommendation of minimal protein so I too can achieve the skinnyfat physique that I desire!

CoderGal

Thanks for posting this for me heybales. Turns out I think my train of thought was right. If you top out at .82, I'm fine with sticking to my .8, as a normal average healthy weight human being who wouldn't need more, one would hope anyway.

I'll also steal this from another one of your posts.
"Notice this one is mainly regarding grams per total weight, not LBM. "
"And of course specific to lifters already at healthy bodyfat levels. But still interesting what levels prevented loss during cuts, and more experienced needed less"

So the obvious assumption since we're dealing with body builders is that they're mostly all male. Since overweight men have more of a need for protein, and overweight men have more fat then the alternative, and women tend to carry higher fat percentages, would you think that average women would need more protein then the average male?

AJ_G

.82g/lb of body weight, the golden number

deksgrl

So the obvious assumption since we're dealing with body builders is that they're mostly all male. Since overweight men have more of a need for protein, and overweight men have more fat then the alternative, and women tend to carry higher fat percentages, would you think that average women would need more protein then the average male?

Bump because I'm interested in the answer.

CrankMeUp

.82g/lb of body weight, the golden number

is that like a golden ticket?

taunto

.82g/lb of body weight, the golden number

is that like a golden ticket?

More like a shower

gypsyrose64

Tagging to catch up later...

As a morbidly obese woman (weighing 213) who isn't doing high cardio or heavy weights right now, I'm thinking anything higher than 100g of protein for me is just wasted. With that said, 40/30/30 gets me 118g assigned by MFP. At 42% bf, I calculated about 120 LBM. (using the .8 formula puts me 98.4g)

I had a few people tell me to lower my carbs, but then that increases the fat and protein even more. I'm supposed to eat close to 1600 cals to reach BMR, but keep the carbs low? Is 40/30/30 right for me without heavy cardio? I feel like I'm trying to split an atom with this crap sometimes.

CoderGal

Tagging to catch up later...

As a morbidly obese woman (weighing 213) who isn't doing high cardio or heavy weights right now, I'm thinking anything higher than 100g of protein for me is just wasted. With that said, 40/30/30 gets me 118g assigned by MFP. At 42% bf, I calculated about 120 LBM. (using the .8 formula puts me 98.4g)

I had a few people tell me to lower my carbs, but then that increases the fat and protein even more. I'm supposed to eat close to 1600 cals to reach BMR, but keep the carbs low? Is 40/30/30 right for me without heavy cardio? I feel like I'm trying to split an atom with this crap sometimes.

Actually your protein needs go up as one gets more overweight from what I have read.

Belinda658

I spent my first 3 months of lifting eating at least 1g. x 1lbm every day and when I had a dexa scan I had a way above average amount of lbm for my height and those damn bf scales were 5% off. I really feel like its because I made sure my protein was high,
. Now I freak out If I go 10g under that I'm going to lose lbm but I guess that's silly right? I'm at 32% bf sti

SideSteel

Tagging to catch up later...

As a morbidly obese woman (weighing 213) who isn't doing high cardio or heavy weights right now, I'm thinking anything higher than 100g of protein for me is just wasted. With that said, 40/30/30 gets me 118g assigned by MFP. At 42% bf, I calculated about 120 LBM. (using the .8 formula puts me 98.4g)

I had a few people tell me to lower my carbs, but then that increases the fat and protein even more. I'm supposed to eat close to 1600 cals to reach BMR, but keep the carbs low? Is 40/30/30 right for me without heavy cardio? I feel like I'm trying to split an atom with this crap sometimes.

Actually your protein needs go up as one gets more overweight from what I have read.

This is also context dependent. Generally speaking, obese people will retain lbm more readily compared to lean people since stored fat is more of an available fuel source. In a proportional sense this lowers protein needs. This is also one reason (a very big reason) why protein needs go up in lean bodybuilders who are trying to get very lean.

Wetcoaster

Layne Norton on the subject.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjmV8BlsJTQ

My0WNinspiration

Tagging to catch up later...

As a morbidly obese woman (weighing 213) who isn't doing high cardio or heavy weights right now, I'm thinking anything higher than 100g of protein for me is just wasted. With that said, 40/30/30 gets me 118g assigned by MFP. At 42% bf, I calculated about 120 LBM. (using the .8 formula puts me 98.4g)

I had a few people tell me to lower my carbs, but then that increases the fat and protein even more. I'm supposed to eat close to 1600 cals to reach BMR, but keep the carbs low? Is 40/30/30 right for me without heavy cardio? I feel like I'm trying to split an atom with this crap sometimes.

Actually your protein needs go up as one gets more overweight from what I have read.

This is also context dependent. Generally speaking, obese people will retain lbm more readily compared to lean people since stored fat is more of an available fuel source. In a proportional sense this lowers protein needs. This is also one reason (a very big reason) why protein needs go up in lean bodybuilders who are trying to get very lean.

So the more obese you are.....the less protein you need to retain lean muscle mass? Good to know!

heybales

Layne Norton on the subject.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjmV8BlsJTQ

Hope he's got more on it, because that didn't touch on quantity except for max available for anabolic response, but without a time period given, not really useful info.

He's always got good info, I just wish he'd have an outline of points he definitely wants to hit on to make sure he covers everything. All too often he'll leave just enough missing. He'll get better, just needs that outline.

But this long discussion was there too. Aragon and Helms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=SFObr7rc1kA

onedayatatime12

I do 45/35/20 carb/protein/fat.

Would greatly appreciate advice on if I'm doing it right or wrong. Only reason I'm doing it this way is because I read that it's the "macrobolic ratio" or something or another. Plus, maybe it's just me being overly optimistic, but I feel like I look so much leaner and flatter like I used to even though I'm at a higher weight. But I don't know what my BF% so there's no way of knowing the reason for it.

heybales

I do 45/35/20 carb/protein/fat.

Would greatly appreciate advice on if I'm doing it right or wrong. Only reason I'm doing it this way is because I read that it's the "macrobolic ratio" or something or another. Plus, maybe it's just me being overly optimistic, but I feel like I look so much leaner and flatter like I used to even though I'm at a higher weight. But I don't know what my BF% so there's no way of knowing the reason for it.

Please reread the original post. Because you haven't provided enough info for anyone to give anything useful.

thescrumisfun

I have my macros set at 50/30/20 [carbs, protein, fats], and it keeps me really happy, and when I eat correctly, quite energized. Thanks for the post! I eat way too much protein sometimes. The .82 is interesting. I'll keep it in mind.

Vailara

bump

onedayatatime12

I have an average intake of 1500, though I've upped it to 1600 now. My BMR is 1407 currently and I estimate a daily caloric need of 1750, conservatively.