Still confused about eating back calories

veganbaum

d_thomas02 wrote: »

rileysowner wrote: »

Actually MFP does not care about exercise, at least not in terms of setting your daily calorie goal which is why calories are added to your goal when you log your exercise.

Do this little experiment. Change your information and enter no exercise. Then do it again and only add exercise. Your calorie goal will be the same.

Your experiment makes no sense. One's MFP calorie goal is based, in part, on the routine activity level one selects; 'sedentary', 'lightly active', etc., not on any additional (i.e. out of the ordinary) exercise one may log on a particular day. Changing one's activity level will change one's calorie goal. (Note: MFP will limit how low the calorie goal may go, so if a woman is showing a 1200 calorie goal at 'slightly active', changing to 'sedentary' will not lower her goal below 1200.)

While I agree that one's calorie goal will not be changed by adding or deleting additional logged exercises, the number of calories one may eat without going over budget, as set up by MFP and shown as one's "remaining" calories, is affected by additional logged exercises.

Determining whether one is under, on, or over their calorie budget on a particular day is shown only in MFP's calories remaining, not the calorie goal. Thus MFP does indeed care about both routine (activity level) and additional (logged exercises) calories burned when calculating one's remaining calories.

One may choose to ignore the additional exercise and eat just the goal calories (risky, but acceptable as long as one does not routinely exceed a 1000 calorie per day deficit). One may choose to eat the goal and a percentage of the additional exercise calories. One may choose to eat the goal and all of the additional exercise calorie (i.e. all the remaining calories).

As I stated previously, I have chosen to leave, on average, 100-200 calories remaining in my MFP budget uneaten, regardless of my additional logged exercises. I eat back most of my exercise calories. Since I also have chosen a 500 a day weight lose deficit (1 lb/wk), my deficit may go as high as 700 calories, still well below MFP healthy weight lose max of 1000 calorie a day deficit (2 lb/wk). Thus, while my daily calories eaten may be as low as 1800 or has high as 2500 calories (dependent on additional logged exercises for any particular day), I maintain a 500-700 daily calorie deficit.

I think the way in which you're explaining things is, perhaps, causing some confusion. It kind of seems like you are saying that your MFP goal includes all routine activity - including routine exercise, but if you do more or something different than you expect then you need to add it in. I think the other poster was interpreting your statements that way, and so corrected that. I'm not sure. The way I read your posts, it seems like that's what you're saying, which is not what MFP's activity level is. If that's not what you're saying, then there is definitely some confusion.

robertw486

crittergirl222 wrote: »

And then when I just added a snack to today, it changed my "You would weigh X in 5 weeks: by about 8 lbs." This makes me think that if I didn't eat this snack my weight loss might be quicker. Which puts me back to the original confusion (like others)-if I worked so hard to exercise them off, why would I want to eat them back (barring light headedness, fatigue etc). If I feel good, wouldn't a greater negative in daily calories be better???

The MFP system is designed to be goal based and sustainable, not a short term "lose as quick as possible" type diet. My setting up your weight loss goal you create your calorie deficit. If you exercise, you eat back calories to keep your nutrition in check.

You could lose weight faster, but might do so in an unhealthy way. As for the MFP method vs TDEE (which is what you probably used on the Scoobyworkshop site) TDEE is a great method for those with set schedules that always work out to about the same levels per week. It's simple for people that fit that category. But for people that don't work out on a set schedule, the MFP system is a bit more flexible in accounting for recovery food and day to day changes.

As an example, you mentioned burning 500-600 calories on your workout. If you burn 1200 one day, MFP wants you to eat your calories back, recovery properly, and continue with your set weight loss goal. I've had days where I've burned more calories with just exercise than my daily calorie allotment. I'd be wiped out if I biked 50+ miles and still only ate my 2000 calories.

d_thomas02

For me, routine exercises are mundane activities; walking to the car, climbing stairs at work or at home, walk through a grocery store, adding wood to my central wood furnace. Mundane daily chores. That's why, although I'm a 3rd degree black belt and have an active lifestyle I have chosen my routine (i.e. mundane) activity level as only 'Slightly Active'. Any additional exercise I do; SCUBA diving, MA tournament, participating in 5K races, or even run on my treadmill three days a week, i.e. non-mundane activities. I log as additional exercises. Things I don't do every single day.

I can be as lazy as any guy, particularly on a weekend with bad weather. Why would my calorie goal reflect 'very active' when I'm sitting down binge watching NetFlix all day?

veganbaum

d_thomas02 wrote: »

For me, routine exercises are mundane activities; walking to the car, climbing stairs at work or at home, walk through a grocery store, adding wood to my central wood furnace. Mundane daily chores. That's why, although I'm a 3rd degree black belt and have an active lifestyle I have chosen my routine (i.e. mundane) activity level as only 'Slightly Active'. Any additional exercise I do; SCUBA diving, MA tournament, participating in 5K races, or even run on my treadmill three days a week, i.e. non-mundane activities. I log as additional exercises. Things I don't do every single day.

I can be as lazy as any guy, particularly on a weekend with bad weather. Why would my calorie goal reflect 'very active' when I'm sitting down binge watching NetFlix all day?

I think it's maybe coming down to word choice. You seem to be calling your daily stuff "routine exercises," whereas MFP identifies that as your "activity level." Your activity level is not meant to include any intentional exercise - it is simply your day-to-day activities, such as work, housework, childcare, grocery shopping, etc. That's your NEAT. Then you add in any intentional exercise. I think you're mostly on the same page as other posters, but calling activity exercise. It's just making what you're saying less clear than it might otherwise be, which could be confusing for the OP, and any lurkers.

d_thomas02

Pretty sure I said the same thing about being on the same page hours ago.

(For me, NEAT means no ice in my liquor.)

carmkizzle

I never eat back all of my calories. If I burn 600 during exercising, the most I'd eat back would be about 250. But that's just what I choose to do...I like to keep it simple.

crittergirl222

Great input, everyone. I really appreciate the feedback (pun intended-I just ate back some of my workout calories). I think I will only eat some (not all) and see how that works for me. I have been not eating them back for weeks now, but don't want to sabotage myself by burning lean muscle.

You all are the best!

robertw486

crittergirl222 wrote: »

Great input, everyone. I really appreciate the feedback (pun intended-I just ate back some of my workout calories). I think I will only eat some (not all) and see how that works for me. I have been not eating them back for weeks now, but don't want to sabotage myself by burning lean muscle.

You all are the best!

Keep in mind that often calorie burns are exaggerated. I think that is one of the reasons many people just eat back partial calories. If you nail down calorie burns to close, you always have the option to eat them back. If you're not sure, you can just eat part of them and see how close to loss goals you are. Then again, really you can do that without counting calories in or out.

I spent more time than some people do making sure my exercise calories were fairly close to right. So now when I'm in the mood for hitting the food trucks at a local brewery I just "bank" a lot of calories with a hard bike ride or something. Then I can go eat guilt free knowing I have calories to spare.

kami3006

d_thomas02 wrote: »

@crittergirl222, ignore the '5 weeks'. I stopped completing days 'cause that is just nonsense.

What you do is up to you, of course. I choose to maintain a 500 cal deficit at the end of the day. That means If I burned an additional 600 cal in exercise and logged it as above and beyond my normal activities in MFP, I eat them back. I still maintain my original 500 deficit as my TDEE has increased with the extra exercise burn.

Example:
MFP says your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) is 2500 calories based on input you gave MFP.
you also told MFP that your weight lose goal was 2 lb/wk
MFP does the math and subtracts you daily deficit (1000 calories) to achieve your weight lose goal of 2 lb/wk from your TDEE (2500) or

2500 (TDEE) - 1000 (deficit) = 1500 calories (your intake goal).

If you do not log any additional exercise, you can eat 1500 calories to lose 2 lb/wk.

Now say you log an addition 600 calorie exercise. This adds to your TDEE for the day.

TDEE = 2500 + 600 or 3100

MDF subtracts your daily deficit from your TDEE for this day

3100 - 1000 = 2100

to give you a specific calorie intake for this day of 2100 cal.

You still have your 1000 calorie deficit. you still maintain your weight lose goal of 2 lb/wk.

If you do not eat back your exercise calories, your deficit would be 1600 calories for that day (1000 for your weight lose goal of 2 lb/wk plus the 600 exercise calories you did not eat back). If you did this routinely, you would be over the safe 2 lb/wk maximum lose recommended by MFP.

Just to be clear for any lurkers. MFP does not calculate TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) and subtract a deficit as it does not take into account purposeful exercise. It calculates NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) and then you add exercise. They are two separate things and I'd hate to see any additional confusion on new members.

TDEE would already have you purposeful exercise accounted for as well as your daily activity level.

d_thomas02

No wonder newbies (I include myself in this group) get confused on what the numbers mean @kami3006.

I really liked @veganbaum explanation to me. Less tech-speak, more simple words.

veganbaum

d_thomas02 wrote: »

No wonder newbies (I include myself in this group) get confused on what the numbers mean @kami3006.

I really liked @veganbaum explanation to me. Less tech-speak, more simple words.

I'm glad kami addressed the TDEE thing. I noticed it as well, but was far too tired to write any more coherent posts last night. And since a lot of members here do use TDEE and that will be thrown out there a lot, it's important to differentiate that from MFP's use of the NEAT method.

All the information out there can be very confusing. Most calculators work from TDEE, so that's often what causes more confusion with MFP and the whole exercise calories thing. People who aren't familiar with MFP think it works like a TDEE calculator (which includes exercise up front, so you're really still eating exercise calories, just already calculated in) and will insist you shouldn't eat the exercise calories.

It's good to try to keep things simple with weight loss if you can. So many people give up because they think they have to be miserable to lose weight. It may not be easy, but it doesn't have to be as complicated as some try to make it. You were generally getting it, though.

kami3006

veganbaum wrote: »

d_thomas02 wrote: »

No wonder newbies (I include myself in this group) get confused on what the numbers mean @kami3006.

I really liked @veganbaum explanation to me. Less tech-speak, more simple words.

I'm glad kami addressed the TDEE thing. I noticed it as well, but was far too tired to write any more coherent posts last night. And since a lot of members here do use TDEE and that will be thrown out there a lot, it's important to differentiate that from MFP's use of the NEAT method.

All the information out there can be very confusing. Most calculators work from TDEE, so that's often what causes more confusion with MFP and the whole exercise calories thing. People who aren't familiar with MFP think it works like a TDEE calculator (which includes exercise up front, so you're really still eating exercise calories, just already calculated in) and will insist you shouldn't eat the exercise calories.

It's good to try to keep things simple with weight loss if you can. So many people give up because they think they have to be miserable to lose weight. It may not be easy, but it doesn't have to be as complicated as some try to make it. You were generally getting it, though.

Well said!

FiiiiFiiiFlowerTot

I eat between 1000-1200 and then try to not eat any exercise calories back!

janejellyroll

FiiiiFiiiFlowerTot wrote: »

I eat between 1000-1200 and then try to not eat any exercise calories back!

This is a really low calorie goal. Since OP estimates that she burns 600 calories when she exercises, this wouldn't be sustainable for her energy levels or her health.

d_thomas02

OK, let's see if I got this.

MFP calculates a calorie goal based on NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) which includes one's BMR (Basal Metobolic Rate, i.e. calories burned to sustain life in a coma) which in turn is based on age and weight, add one's mundane day-to-day activities, and less one's chosen weight lose goal (1000 cals a day for 2 lb/wk lose, etc). This goal number is relatively constant, only changing as one's age increases, one's weight increases or decreases, one's day-to-day mundane activities change, or if one's weight lose goal changes. (Noting lower limits for men and women.)

One then logs intentional exercises into MFP. MFP then sums goal calories with exercise calories less calories eaten to display remaining calories. Theoretically all of which can be eaten and still maintain one's weight lose goals, noting that adjustments to actual calories eaten may be needed to deal with inaccuracies in logging exercises and individual metabolic characteristics.

In order to calculate one's TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) One must add MFP's calorie goal to exercise calories and then add back in one's weight lose goal (1000 cals a day for 2 lb/wk lose, etc.)

Other sites, such as scooby, calculates TDEE directly (BMR, mundane activity level, and intentional exercises together) and then adjusts "Daily calories based on goal in step 6" to match one's weight lose goals.

In both cases, MFP's remaining calories (with 0 food calories eaten) [EDIT: actually should have said 'the sum of MFP's goal calories with exercise calories'] and Scooby's "Daily calories based on goal in step 6" should match pretty close. Yes?

Did I get the terminology right?

rileysowner

d_thomas02 wrote: »

OK, let's see if I got this.

MFP calculates a calorie goal based on NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) which includes one's BMR (Basal Metobolic Rate, i.e. calories burned to sustain life in a coma) which in turn is based on age and weight, add one's mundane day-to-day activities, and less one's chosen weight lose goal (1000 cals a day for 2 lb/wk lose, etc). This goal number is relatively constant, only changing as one's age increases, one's weight increases or decreases, one's day-to-day mundane activities change, or if one's weight lose goal changes. (Noting lower limits for men and women.)

One then logs intentional exercises into MFP. MFP then sums goal calories with exercise calories less calories eaten to display remaining calories. Theoretically all of which can be eaten and still maintain one's weight lose goals, noting that adjustments to actual calories eaten may be needed to deal with inaccuracies in logging exercises and individual metabolic characteristics.

In order to calculate one's TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) One must add MFP's calorie goal to exercise calories and then add back in one's weight lose goal (1000 cals a day for 2 lb/wk lose, etc.)

Other sites, such as scooby, calculates TDEE directly (BMR, mundane activity level, and intentional exercises together) and then adjusts "Daily calories based on goal in step 6" to match one's weight lose goals.

In both cases, MFP's remaining calories (with 0 food calories eaten) [EDIT: actually should have said 'the sum of MFP's goal calories with exercise calories'] and Scooby's "Daily calories based on goal in step 6" should match pretty close. Yes?

Did I get the terminology right?

Pretty much.

The main equation to keep in mind is:

Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE)=Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR)+Non-Exercise Activity Theromogenisis (NEAT)+Exercise Activity (EA)

What MFP included in their calculation for your base calorie goal is:

Calorie Goal (CG) =BRM+NEAT-Calories for weight loss goal

When a person exercises that is added to the CG number because it was not include earlier.
This, by the way is what I meant that MFP does not care about exercise when determining a users calorie goal, not that MFP does not care at all, just that no matter what you set you intended exercise amount to, it makes no difference to the base CG calculation

Most of the other app and weight loss sights, not to mention TDEE calculators, include the EA number in their calculations they take off the Calories for your weight loss goal. With them there is no eating back of exercise calories since they are already included.

mstuck08

You should never eat back your calories

janejellyroll

mstuck08 wrote: »

You should never eat back your calories

This is terrible advice. People should NEVER eat back their calories, even if they don't eat much and engage in a lot of activity? People should NEVER eat back their calories, even if they are hungry?

If your calorie goal comes from MFP and you are active, eating back the calories may be the best way to preserve your muscle mass, fuel your activity, and ensure health.

d_thomas02

rileysowner wrote: »

Pretty much.

@rileysowner, if you're not real careful, you just might give me an unqualified affirmation one of these days.

Cheers!

rileysowner

d_thomas02 wrote: »

rileysowner wrote: »

Pretty much.

@rileysowner, if you're not real careful, you just might give me an unqualified affirmation one of these days.

Cheers!

I can affirm that, unqualifiedly. ;-)

RGv2

FiiiiFiiiFlowerTot wrote: »

I eat between 1000-1200 and then try to not eat any exercise calories back!

Why???

rileysowner

FiiiiFiiiFlowerTot wrote: »

I eat between 1000-1200 and then try to not eat any exercise calories back!

In other words you are eating way to little to get the nutrition not to mention the energy your body needs to stay healthy. You want to lose weight, but at the same time you are going to lose not just fat, for that matter not even mainly fat, but also lose from muscle mass and even organ mass. Please stop starving yourself, especially if your picture in your profile is accurate. You don't look from it like you need to lose a lot, and trying to lose quickly will do your body no favors.