High Protein, Low Carbs Vs Calorie Counting
Replies
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The full study clearly states that those in the top third tier who have insulin resistance can lead to health issues. It should also be noted that they were the less active and gained weight. Whats interesting they didn't see thr same effect in the most insulin sensitive.. and they also noted that calorie restriction and diet can prevent most of this.
Also interesting that exercise can protect against IR and make you more insulin sensitive. (It also tends to make you more leptin sensitive.) IMO, exercise is by far the healthy lifestyle change that is most important, if one can do it.0 -
The full study clearly states that those in the top third tier who have insulin resistance can lead to health issues. It should also be noted that they were the less active and gained weight. Whats interesting they didn't see thr same effect in the most insulin sensitive.. and they also noted that calorie restriction and diet can prevent most of this.
So not see the link that insulin causes health issues.
There's none so blind as those who don't want to see.
Remind me what the definition of insulin resistance is ? oh yes, it's elevated serum insulin levels.
So IR = high insulin
So if all those high insulin people got sick, and the low insulin (IS) did not, might it just possibly be the insulin what did it ?
They gained weight too ? Same problem. ITIS.0 -
The full study clearly states that those in the top third tier who have insulin resistance can lead to health issues. It should also be noted that they were the less active and gained weight. Whats interesting they didn't see thr same effect in the most insulin sensitive.. and they also noted that calorie restriction and diet can prevent most of this.
So not see the link that insulin causes health issues.
There's none so blind as those who don't want to see.
Remind me what the definition of insulin resistance is ? oh yes, it's elevated serum insulin levels.
So IR = high insulin
So if all those high insulin people got sick, and the low insulin (IS) did not, might it just possibly be the insulin what did it ?
They gained weight too ? Same problem. ITIS.
So you think any time the body produces insulin, that it will lead to IR? So you think protein is bad?
Whats ironic, that this article isn't saying what you are trying call me out on. Secreting insulin does NOT cause insulin resistance. And if you read the article, you will see those who developed IR, were inactive and became over weight. No where in the study did it link carbs.
So the biggest drivers in preventing IR: healthy weight and exercise0 -
I never claimed a link to carbs, I simply followed up your suggestion to do some research as you claimed "insulin does not cause health effects or issues".
Insulin resistance is determined by having high fasting serum insulin as the HOMA-IR measurement is the product of fasting insulin and blood glucose. Therefore insulin resistant people have high levels of insulin. This is somewhat inevitable as there's a vicious circle of reduced response causing more insulin to be released causing reduced sensitivity due to over exposure and so on. Same as happens with other things the body is over-exposed to.
So if an insulin resistant population are much more likely to get a disease it follows that people with high levels of insulin are more likely to get it, because the IR people have high levels of insulin. It's the same group of people.
The authors of the paper clearly state that the impact of insulin resistance is independent of BMI.
Here's my second piece of research - "Conclusions: Hyperinsulinemia is associated with a higher risk of AD and decline in memory. " Neurology October 12, 2004 vol. 63 no. 7 1187-1192 http://www.neurology.org/content/63/7/1187.abstract
I haven't bothered to read "Hyperinsulinemia as an independent risk factor in ischemic heart disease" in full (Despres, NEJM 1996) Apr 11, but the abstract concludes that "high fasting insulin concentrations appear to be an independent predictor of ischemic heart disease in men".
So thanks for the interesting assignment, I think that's enough to disprove the hypothesis. Insulin is implicated in several diseases and health complications0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.0 -
I never claimed a link to carbs, I simply followed up your suggestion to do some research as you claimed "insulin does not cause health effects or issues".
Insulin resistance is determined by having high fasting serum insulin as the HOMA-IR measurement is the product of fasting insulin and blood glucose. Therefore insulin resistant people have high levels of insulin. This is somewhat inevitable as there's a vicious circle of reduced response causing more insulin to be released causing reduced sensitivity due to over exposure and so on. Same as happens with other things the body is over-exposed to.
So if an insulin resistant population are much more likely to get a disease it follows that people with high levels of insulin are more likely to get it, because the IR people have high levels of insulin. It's the same group of people.
The authors of the paper clearly state that the impact of insulin resistance is independent of BMI.
Here's my second piece of research - "Conclusions: Hyperinsulinemia is associated with a higher risk of AD and decline in memory. " Neurology October 12, 2004 vol. 63 no. 7 1187-1192 http://www.neurology.org/content/63/7/1187.abstract
I haven't bothered to read "Hyperinsulinemia as an independent risk factor in ischemic heart disease" in full (Despres, NEJM 1996) Apr 11, but the abstract concludes that "high fasting insulin concentrations appear to be an independent predictor of ischemic heart disease in men".
So thanks for the interesting assignment, I think that's enough to disprove the hypothesis. Insulin is implicated in several diseases and health complications
Please tell me how eating foods that promote the release of insulin (carbs/protein) cause IR? Not once did I say IR doesn't lead to other issues. That is something you are trying to bring into this equation.
And if you actually look at my post in context, not the cherry picked phrase, then you will see the entire logic.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.
Maybe because the research at Harvard would suggest that a diet in whole grains can be beneficial. And whole grains can have a good amount of fiber which is a very beneficial nutrient. On top of that, many whole grains are very low in calories which make it easier to maintain a healthy weight.
Also, comparing your existing IR issues vice someone trying to prevent it, isn't a fair comparison. Your body doesn't use insulin correctly, while someone like myself who is working to get more fit might not have that issue.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.
Maybe because the research at Harvard would suggest that a diet in whole grains can be beneficial. And whole grains can have a good amount of fiber which is a very beneficial nutrient. On top of that, many whole grains are very low in calories which make it easier to maintain a healthy weight.
Also, comparing your existing IR issues vice someone trying to prevent it, isn't a fair comparison. Your body doesn't use insulin correctly, while someone like myself who is working to get more fit might not have that issue.
But are grains actually beneficial in preventing diabetes as the article stated? Eat more glucose creating foods to help prevet insulin resistance, a health problem where the pancreas appears to be worn out due to over work? Doesn't make sense to me. Advocating eating more veggies, which are lower in calories and often higher in fibre, seems like a better choice for helping to prevent insulin resistance than whole grains would be.
JMO0 -
Read "Proteinaholic" by Dr. Garth Davis. Eat a plant based diet (as much as possible). These high protein diets drive me crazy. Every person I know who has done it was hungry all the time, constipated, had no energy and felt sick. Then they gained all the weight back. You need to eat real plant food. Not packaged "food-like products." Fruits, Vegetables, Whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and even potatoes! We need carbs for energy. The refined carbs (white bread and white sugar) is what you avoid. Start watching documentaries like "Forks Over Knives" is a good start. Before long you will see past the advertisements and money making schemes that is killing us.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.
Maybe because the research at Harvard would suggest that a diet in whole grains can be beneficial. And whole grains can have a good amount of fiber which is a very beneficial nutrient. On top of that, many whole grains are very low in calories which make it easier to maintain a healthy weight.
Also, comparing your existing IR issues vice someone trying to prevent it, isn't a fair comparison. Your body doesn't use insulin correctly, while someone like myself who is working to get more fit might not have that issue.
But are grains actually beneficial in preventing diabetes as the article stated? Eat more glucose creating foods to help prevet insulin resistance, a health problem where the pancreas appears to be worn out due to over work? Doesn't make sense to me. Advocating eating more veggies, which are lower in calories and often higher in fibre, seems like a better choice for helping to prevent insulin resistance than whole grains would be.
JMO
Eating carbs doesnt cause insulin resistance. Obesity and lack of exercise does.0 -
Read "Proteinaholic" by Dr. Garth Davis. Eat a plant based diet (as much as possible). These high protein diets drive me crazy. Every person I know who has done it was hungry all the time, constipated, had no energy and felt sick. Then they gained all the weight back. You need to eat real plant food. Not packaged "food-like products." Fruits, Vegetables, Whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and even potatoes! We need carbs for energy. The refined carbs (white bread and white sugar) is what you avoid. Start watching documentaries like "Forks Over Knives" is a good start. Before long you will see past the advertisements and money making schemes that is killing us.
If people on a high protein diet are hungry they are doing it wrong. You arent supposed to just eat ridiculous amounts of protein, which is what most people do. You should still eat veggies, fruits and a variety of fats.
And never use documentaries for information as they cherry pick studies and have an agenda.0 -
Read "Proteinaholic" by Dr. Garth Davis. Eat a plant based diet (as much as possible). These high protein diets drive me crazy. Every person I know who has done it was hungry all the time, constipated, had no energy and felt sick. Then they gained all the weight back. You need to eat real plant food. Not packaged "food-like products." Fruits, Vegetables, Whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and even potatoes! We need carbs for energy. The refined carbs (white bread and white sugar) is what you avoid. Start watching documentaries like "Forks Over Knives" is a good start. Before long you will see past the advertisements and money making schemes that is killing us.
Forks over knives IS an advertisement.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.
Maybe because the research at Harvard would suggest that a diet in whole grains can be beneficial. And whole grains can have a good amount of fiber which is a very beneficial nutrient. On top of that, many whole grains are very low in calories which make it easier to maintain a healthy weight.
Also, comparing your existing IR issues vice someone trying to prevent it, isn't a fair comparison. Your body doesn't use insulin correctly, while someone like myself who is working to get more fit might not have that issue.
But are grains actually beneficial in preventing diabetes as the article stated? Eat more glucose creating foods to help prevet insulin resistance, a health problem where the pancreas appears to be worn out due to over work? Doesn't make sense to me. Advocating eating more veggies, which are lower in calories and often higher in fibre, seems like a better choice for helping to prevent insulin resistance than whole grains would be.
JMO
Eating carbs doesnt cause insulin resistance. Obesity and lack of exercise does.
Possibly. Just commenting on the Harvard article on how to prevent diabetes. Apparently bacon might help cause diabetes too.... My guess is that they'll be rewriting that in the next few years.0 -
I am a big fan of Why we get fat
https://books.google.com/books/about/Why_We_Get_Fat.html?id=Pm9ZcFYtLZ4C&source=kp_cover
and the FAST 5:2 diet. I read this blog post
http://lifehacker.com/how-i-experimented-my-way-to-losing-100-pounds-1107324670
on Lifehacker. After following the plan for the last two weeks I have lost 18 LBS and feel great. It's the easiest "diet" I have tried so far. Also I would add that I put as much time and effort into mindfulness and sleep as food intake and exercise.-1 -
Processed carbed foods tend to be more calorie dense, than protein foods.
why or why ??
when you compare the two, processed carbed foods tend to have less fiber, and less water.
remember the magic 3 that don't have any calories:
fiber
water
air !!
******************************
so what works for me is eating items that are have fiber, water, (and air, ha! )
plus protein foods tend to be lower in sugar : )
which translates to less calories.
and just happens to be more protein, and less processed carbs.
so you're both right !
0 -
Finding common ground.
We all can agree that too much carbs from simple sources is bad, straight up sugar, and the such. Reduction in those are beneficial.
Protein and fats keep you full longer, therefore, it is easier to maintain a calorie deficit eating these.
I try to eat 50% from carbs, ideally more complex or in whole food form (difference between an apple and apple juice). That works for me. YMMV0 -
bathmatt12345 , thank you !0 -
Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Processed carbed foods tend to be more calorie dense, than protein foods.
Most foods have a mix of macros (and those that don't usually won't work as a sole source of food). So thinking of foods as "protein foods" or "processed carbed foods" doesn't always make a lot of sense. Sausage is a processed "protein" that also tends to have lots of fat (and be high cal), for example. A "processed carb" food I eat a lot is cottage cheese or greek yogurt, and both happen to be a good source of protein, as well as carbs. A "processed" protein that I also often eat a lot with breakfast is smoked salmon (I'm probably going to have some today for lunch, as part of a pasta dish involving a "processed carb" (i.e.,dried pasta) and lots of veg. It won't be high cal, and it will be a mix of macros.why or why ??
when you compare the two, processed carbed foods tend to have less fiber, and less water.
Not necessarily. Dried or canned beans or oatmeal or whole grain bread can have a good amount of fiber. So might guacamole (although that's largely fat). A "protein" like chicken usually won't have any fiber, and nor will a fat like butter or a protein/fat like bacon. Indeed, since fiber is generally classified as a carb in the US and in any case found in plant foods, it tends to be largely in "carbs." Like, of course, fruits and veg and whole grains and legumes.
Also, if we are talking nutrition, calories aren't bad. Too many calories are bad.
As for more protein means less sugar which means fewer calories, no. Protein and sugar have the same number of calories per gram, many high sugar foods (like fruit) aren't high in calories, many sugarless foods can be (sausage, prime rib, higher fat ground beef), and many foods without much protein aren't sugary (pasta, even potato chips). The reason the foods you are likely thinking of as "processed carbs" with lots of sugar and low protein (cookies, pastries) have loads of calories is as much or more to do with the fat than the carbs.
Also, of course, eating enough protein is different from high protein.0 -
Dear lemurcat12,
I'm aware that protein & carb has the same amount of calories, and fat has twice the amount of calories.
My point is how we typically 'label' a food, and that's category's typical hi/low water content.
Pound for pound, typical protein foods have more water content than typical processed carb foods.
I wasn't talking fruit/veggie carbs.We both know those are not PROCESSED carb foods, and agree those are usually high in water and fiber.
I'm talking Processed carb foods... a few examples are cookies, candies, bleached white flour products, bleached rice, etc. The foods that people readily call 'carbs' (although they should really be called processed carb food).
1 pound of chocolate chip cookies (which we typically think as processed carbs)
1920 calories
24 g protein
299 g carb
100 g fat
30 g water
= 453 g total, ie 1 pound
I pound of steak (which we typically think as a protein food)
912 calories
92 g protein
0 g carb
58 g fat (varies depending on type of steak)
303 g water
=453 g total, ie 1 pound.
Per
https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/chocolate-chip-cookies?portionid=46056&portionamount=1.000
https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/beef-top-sirloin-(trimmed-to-1-8-fat)?portionid=36486&portionamount=1.000
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Debbie_Ferr wrote: »Pound for pound, typical protein foods have more water content than typical processed carb foods.
You need to look at them individually, especially since (as we all know) the water content of meat decreases after you cook it, whereas the water content of a "processed carb" like pasta or rice or dried beans will increase after being cooked. That's not even considering that they often may be eaten in soup form -- water content is going to vary tremendously (and does nothing to fill me up, but that's a separate issue).I'm talking Processed carb foods... a few examples are cookies, bleached white flour,
1 pound of chocolate chip cookies (which we typically think as processed carbs)
1920 calories
24 g protein
299 g carb
100 g fat
30 g water
= 453 g total, ie 1 pound
WHY would you think of a cookie as a "processed carb" when it's largely carbs+fat. Look at your example. In one lb (which no one eats or things is a reasonable amount -- a cookie from my recipe box is about 200 calories and the same amount or less sugar than an apple, with the plurality of the calories from butter), you have 900 calories from fat and 1196 calories from carbs -- not far off half and half. It's easy to find similar foods (like chips, fries, pastries, donuts, other kinds of cookies, pizza) with even more fat vs. carbs.
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clippergear wrote: »I've been doing a bunch reading and have found a lot on the idea that more weight can be lost on a high protein, low carb diet than a diet of calorie counting. I wanted to get others perspective on this idea because I'm kinda confused now and wondering if I'm doing the correct thing with MFP.
I would do both!
Weigh your food in grams log it!
Do the HPLC diet, and see how it works for you. I lost 30lbs doing that and it was EASY. It came off quick and steady and my health was greatly benefited by it.
I found that doing HLPC solved my problems with craving, feeling unsatiated, and eating over budget. It also resolved some health issues.
This approach worked for me, as opposed to just trying to eat IIFIYM style.
0 -
lemurcat12,
you have a good point about fat. has twice the calories per gram, than protein or carbs.
thank you.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
WHY would you think of a cookie as a "processed carb" when it's largely carbs+fat. Look at your example. In one lb (which no one eats or things is a reasonable amount -- a cookie from my recipe box is about 200 calories and the same amount or less sugar than an apple, with the plurality of the calories from butter), you have 900 calories from fat and 1196 calories from carbs -- not far off half and half. It's easy to find similar foods (like chips, fries, pastries, donuts, other kinds of cookies, pizza) with even more fat vs. carbs.
some people call them 'processed carbs', others call them 'refined carbs".
And they are typically low in water and fiber.
I like to think of water & fiber as freebies, ie no calories, but fill you up
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/list-refined-carbs-7260.html
"Snack foods are typically made with refined carbs such as bleached flours and sugar in order to increase palatability. Cakes, cookies, pie, candy and chips are all examples of refined snack foods, and according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture"
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/processed-carbohydrates-are-addictive-brain-study-suggests/
"highly-processed carbohydrates like cakes, cookies and chips".
PER http://www.lasting-weight-loss.com/processed-carbohydrates.html
Refined processed carbohydrates to avoid:
tacos
corn chips
wraps
pizza
croissants
pasta (of all kinds, brown or white)
rolls
muffins
flour (of all kinds, brown or white)
crumpets
pastries
bagels
bread (of all kinds, brown or white)
buns
pretzels
doughnuts
cookies
biscuits
cakes
polished rice
wheat
all products containing wheat
corn
cornflour starch
all products containing corn
candy
toffee
sweets
potato chips
batter
breadcrumbs
pastry
pastries
desserts
jams
jelly
jello
dumplings
pasty/pastie
pies
batter
all sugars
all products containing sugar
granola bars
breakfast bars
cereals
soft drinks
sodas
foods containing corn syrup
sugary drinks
cordials
store bought cooked meats/cold cuts if they have added sugars and additives)
sausages/hot dog frankfurters if they contain carbohydrate fillers, additives, or sugar.
0 -
Debbie_Ferr wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
WHY would you think of a cookie as a "processed carb" when it's largely carbs+fat. Look at your example. In one lb (which no one eats or things is a reasonable amount -- a cookie from my recipe box is about 200 calories and the same amount or less sugar than an apple, with the plurality of the calories from butter), you have 900 calories from fat and 1196 calories from carbs -- not far off half and half. It's easy to find similar foods (like chips, fries, pastries, donuts, other kinds of cookies, pizza) with even more fat vs. carbs.
some people call them 'processed carbs', others call them 'refined carbs"
http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/list-refined-carbs-7260.html
"Snack foods are typically made with refined carbs such as bleached flours and sugar in order to increase palatability. Cakes, cookies, pie, candy and chips are all examples of refined snack foods, and according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture"
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/processed-carbohydrates-are-addictive-brain-study-suggests/
"highly-processed carbohydrates like cakes, cookies and chips".
http://www.lasting-weight-loss.com/processed-carbohydrates.html
List of processed carbohydrates
Refined processed carbohydrates to avoid:
tacos
corn chips
wraps
pizza
croissants
pasta (of all kinds, brown or white)
rolls
muffins
flour (of all kinds, brown or white)
crumpets
pastries
bagels
bread (of all kinds, brown or white)
buns
pretzels
doughnuts
cookies
biscuits
cakes
polished rice
wheat
all products containing wheat
corn
cornflour starch
all products containing corn
candy
toffee
sweets
potato chips
batter
breadcrumbs
pastry
pastries
desserts
jams
jelly
jello
dumplings
pasty/pastie
pies
batter
all sugars
all products containing sugar
granola bars
breakfast bars
cereals
soft drinks
sodas
foods containing corn syrup
sugary drinks
cordials
store bought cooked meats/cold cuts if they have added sugars and additives)
sausages/hot dog frankfurters if they contain carbohydrate fillers, additives, or sugar.
You lost me at tacos. I make the best homemade tacos evah!0 -
Calories in vs calories out is the only way.
As far as high/low protein/carb goes it is different for every person. Some people work better on high protein, some better on high carb, and some just in the middle.
No body is the same.0 -
totally agree with the tacos. I was SOOOOOO tempted to edit tacos off the copy-paste list from the link. but figured I'd report it as is. (guessing they had it on the list because of the taco shell. oh well.)0
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That may be true for the vast majority of cases. But as it's been stated in this thread, there are outliers for whom that isn't the case. Although, I would phrase it to say, "Overconsumption of carbs can result in insulin resistance for some people, independent of weight and exercise". What is too many carbs is going to vary from one person to another.lemurcat12 wrote: »Carbs break down into sugar, your body's only way to process that sugar is by insulin. Which has a lot of health effects and issues.
No.
Well since you said it, let it be truth.
Oh wait, what does Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health have to say?When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood.- As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.
- As cells absorb blood sugar, levels in the bloodstream begin to fall.
- When this happens, the pancreas start making glucagon, a hormone that signals the liver to start releasing stored sugar.
- This interplay of insulin and glucagon ensure that cells throughout the body, and especially in the brain, have a steady supply of blood sugar.
- Carbohydrate metabolism is important in the development of type 2 diabetes, which occurs when the body can’t make enough insulin or can’t properly use the insulin it makes.
Type 2 diabetes usually develops gradually over a number of years, beginning when muscle and other cells stop responding to insulin. This condition, known as insulin resistance, causes blood sugar and insulin levels to stay high long after eating. Over time, the heavy demands made on the insulin-making cells wears them out, and insulin production eventually stops.
So I know it might be inconvenient to admit you're wrong to such an *kitten*, such as myself. But admit it, you were wrong, all carbohydrates, regardless of complexity, breaks down into sugar/glucose. Sugar in moderate amounts is not inherently harmful, but it does have adverse effects. Carbohydrates thus can lead to making you fat.
Now let me bring that back in, if you're a health freak who watches your caloric intake, exercises, and the only carbohydrates you take in are complex ones, you'll be fine for the most part. But if you're an average American, carbs are an easy thing to remove from your diet to become healthier quicker.
What you have to understand is that @lemurcat12 isnt saying that carbs dont spike insulin, because they do, but rather that you think carbs will automatically become unhealthy. One thing to note, is that protein also produces an insulin response.
In a person without a medical issue, so non diabetic, will be able to regulate insulin. And while insulin does create an anticatabolic environment (lipogenesis or creation of fat), it will cycle back into a catabolic environment (lipolysis) if in a deficit. Essentially, it fluctuates between fat storage and fat burning. If you have greater periods of lipolysis, you will lose fat overall.
One thing to recognize that even in a low carb or ketogenic environment one can gain weight due to an enzyme called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL). HSL helps break down fat but insulin suppresses that. In a low carb environment HSL is suppressed through dietary fat. Overall, the body is a very impressive machine. Its ultimate goal has been and will be to store fat in fear of famine. So thinking that low carb can circumvent that is incorrect.
As it relates to diabetes, i would add this link as part of the discussion.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/
Things to help prevent diabtes:
1. Keeping weight in check and being physically active can help prevent most cases of the disease.
2. Choosing a diet rich in whole grains and healthy fats adds even more protection—skip the refined grains and sugary soda.
3. Limiting red meat and avoiding processed meat — including bacon, hot dogs, and deli meats — can also help lower diabetes risk.
4. Go for healthier protein sources instead, such as nuts, beans, poultry, and fish.
As you can see, it doesn't discuss removing carbs but rather making smarter choices which is what we are here to do and recommend. So a global recommendation of low carb or keto is ridiculous.
I don't understand the need for them to say number 2. I think they should say to choose a diet rich ingreen leafy, nonstarchy vegetables instead. A diet rich in whole grains implies quite a bit of whole grains and whole grains convert to glucose. Glucose is glucose, right? Veggies just seem like a smarter food choice to stress rather than rice, corn, or what many people will think of: whole grain bread.
I base that opinion on what veggies do to my own BG versus what whole grains do to my BG.
I'm another who developed insulin resistance from not just being obese. I was about 0-15lbs over the healthy normal weight BMI over the last 10 years. I took steroids for a year and now regulating BG is a challenge.
Maybe because the research at Harvard would suggest that a diet in whole grains can be beneficial. And whole grains can have a good amount of fiber which is a very beneficial nutrient. On top of that, many whole grains are very low in calories which make it easier to maintain a healthy weight.
Also, comparing your existing IR issues vice someone trying to prevent it, isn't a fair comparison. Your body doesn't use insulin correctly, while someone like myself who is working to get more fit might not have that issue.
But are grains actually beneficial in preventing diabetes as the article stated? Eat more glucose creating foods to help prevet insulin resistance, a health problem where the pancreas appears to be worn out due to over work? Doesn't make sense to me. Advocating eating more veggies, which are lower in calories and often higher in fibre, seems like a better choice for helping to prevent insulin resistance than whole grains would be.
JMO
Eating carbs doesnt cause insulin resistance. Obesity and lack of exercise does.
Now it may be that for someone who is insulin resistant from very high blood sugar after meals, you could say exercise may be able to trump carb consumption if it can bring blood sugar back down very quickly. But that relies on careful timing, not just a matter of meeting the exercise guidelines of 150+ minutes a week.0 -
Debbie_Ferr wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
WHY would you think of a cookie as a "processed carb" when it's largely carbs+fat. Look at your example. In one lb (which no one eats or things is a reasonable amount -- a cookie from my recipe box is about 200 calories and the same amount or less sugar than an apple, with the plurality of the calories from butter), you have 900 calories from fat and 1196 calories from carbs -- not far off half and half. It's easy to find similar foods (like chips, fries, pastries, donuts, other kinds of cookies, pizza) with even more fat vs. carbs.
some people call them 'processed carbs', others call them 'refined carbs".
And they are typically low in water and fiber.
And high in fat, which often provides about half the calories in these so-called "carbs." That's my point. (And contrary to that silly CBS link, the studies show that the brain has a similar reaction to fat as it does to highly palatable carbs like sugary foods or just sugar -- which I would not equate to addiction, but that's another topic.)
(Something like tacos could easily be equally balanced between the macros -- fat, carbs, protein, and depending on the tortilla used might not be high in refined carbs at all -- even apart from the fact that both the tortilla and, of course, the vegetables or guac on the taco could provide lots of fiber. There's a problem with that list and the terminology used.)
Not to mention, you have to look at how they are eaten to know if they are high or low in fiber/water. I don't know anyone who would eat just pasta. Personally, I always eat pasta and other noodles either in a dish involving vegetables and protein OR in soup (with vegetables and protein). So water (which is not, IMO, filling in a meal) and fiber.0
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