Cutting Techniques Post Bulk
ndj1979
Posts: 29,139 Member
This came up in a previous thread, and instead of derailing that one, I thought it would be best to post this and see if we can get a general consensus on cutting techniques post bulk to maximize fat loss, and minimize muscle loss.
My basic understanding is the following:
I would be curious as to thoughts on what people feel is "adequate" training stimulus and amount of volume that one can handle on a cut, which I understand will also be dependent on how progressively one is cutting. I am still running PHUL in my cut and my volume is just about the same; however, on certain days instead of doing 4x4 on heavy compounds, I will cut that back to 3x4 if I am not "feeling it".
I would also be curious as to how everyone utilizes refeeds when cutting, as this is something that I do not think I am properly utilizing.
My basic understanding is the following:
- Get sufficient protein, which I tend to define as up to one gram per pound of body weight.
- Keep a small deficit 100 to 200 calories.
- Get adequate training stimulus that involves a blend of strength and hypertrophy.
I would be curious as to thoughts on what people feel is "adequate" training stimulus and amount of volume that one can handle on a cut, which I understand will also be dependent on how progressively one is cutting. I am still running PHUL in my cut and my volume is just about the same; however, on certain days instead of doing 4x4 on heavy compounds, I will cut that back to 3x4 if I am not "feeling it".
I would also be curious as to how everyone utilizes refeeds when cutting, as this is something that I do not think I am properly utilizing.
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Replies
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My programming switched, but my volume has stayed the same. My volume does drop over time as body fat gets lower, but that's natural and beyond my control.
My deficit is larger than that (I also have deadlines). I utilize a refeed once per week due to the lower calorie intake and the slightly restricted carbs.2 -
My programming switched, but my volume has stayed the same. My volume does drop over time as body fat gets lower, but that's natural and beyond my control.
My deficit is larger than that (I also have deadlines). I utilize a refeed once per week due to the lower calorie intake and the slightly restricted carbs.
how do you handle a refeed?1 -
My programming switched, but my volume has stayed the same. My volume does drop over time as body fat gets lower, but that's natural and beyond my control.
My deficit is larger than that (I also have deadlines). I utilize a refeed once per week due to the lower calorie intake and the slightly restricted carbs.
how do you handle a refeed?
Mine is about 200 below TDEE (which is about 500 up from my deficit). Protein is the same, fat drops slightly, carbs fill up the rest. So far all measurements (tape, caliper, scale) say that I'm keeping lean mass.
For someone else taking it much slower with no deadline I would say refeeds would be less often, even as infrequently as once per month eating up to TDEE. This applies especially if there is not a significant reduction in carbs between bulk and cut numbers.
@LolBroScience I believe is one who did a longer slow cut. I don't think he used refeeds (but maybe he did now that he has a gf to be a bad influence).1 -
My programming switched, but my volume has stayed the same. My volume does drop over time as body fat gets lower, but that's natural and beyond my control.
My deficit is larger than that (I also have deadlines). I utilize a refeed once per week due to the lower calorie intake and the slightly restricted carbs.
how do you handle a refeed?
Mine is about 200 below TDEE (which is about 500 up from my deficit). Protein is the same, fat drops slightly, carbs fill up the rest. So far all measurements (tape, caliper, scale) say that I'm keeping lean mass.
For someone else taking it much slower with no deadline I would say refeeds would be less often, even as infrequently as once per month eating up to TDEE. This applies especially if there is not a significant reduction in carbs between bulk and cut numbers.
@LolBroScience I believe is one who did a longer slow cut. I don't think he used refeeds (but maybe he did now that he has a gf to be a bad influence).
interesting..
I would be curious as to @LolBroScience thoughts on this too ...1 -
Refeed for me:
- fats at or around 20-25g's for the day;
- I multiply add 5% to maintenance calories and fill it in with a reduced protein macro intake (during the cut im at around 1.4g/lb of lbm, during the reefed I reduce this to 1g/lb of lbm), and;
- I fill the rest carbs. Bagels, nonfat/lowfat milk, cereal, low fat cream cheese, rice, pasta, waffles (lowfat), etc.
Layne Norton suggests the following for refeeds:- Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic.
- Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels.
- Reduce protein intake to 1 g/lb bodyweight.
- Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels.
- Increase calories to maintenance level (or above) and increase carbs by at least 50-100%
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http://www.simplyshredded.com/layne-norton-the-most-effective-cutting-diet.html - decent article to reference for cutting. This does include some stuff on meal timing and specific nutrients over others, but for the most part the premise is right on track with a typical flexible dieters.2
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »Refeed for me:
- fats at or around 20-25g's for the day;
- I multiply add 5% to maintenance calories and fill it in with a reduced protein macro intake (during the cut im at around 1.4g/lb of lbm, during the reefed I reduce this to 1g/lb of lbm), and;
- I fill the rest carbs. Bagels, nonfat/lowfat milk, cereal, low fat cream cheese, rice, pasta, waffles (lowfat), etc.
Layne Norton suggests the following for refeeds:- Re-feed on the day you work your worst body part(s) as re-feeding will not only raise leptin, but be quite anabolic.
- Keep fat as low as possible during re-feed days as high insulin levels will increase dietary fat transport into adipose tissue. In addition dietary fat has little to no impact on leptin levels.
- Reduce protein intake to 1 g/lb bodyweight.
- Consume as little fructose as possible as fructose does not have an impact on leptin levels.
- Increase calories to maintenance level (or above) and increase carbs by at least 50-100%
Agree with all of this. How often I do refeeds depends on current body fat %, magnitude of deficit, and how many carbs I am eating every day on average. I don't usually schedule them, just take one when I start to feel too glycogen depleted.1 -
Following.1
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Depending on weekly weight loss, I'll configure my cals for refeed. Also depending on the size of my deficit and my energy levels. Probably bring my refeed calories up to my bulking calories for the day. So anywhere from 3600-4000 cals focusing on low fat, high carb meals with moderate protein(: usually working legs that day or the day before and chest or back the day after. Usually it's Saturday legs, Sunday is refeed with active rest, then hit it hard chest or back monday(:1
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This came up in a previous thread, and instead of derailing that one, I thought it would be best to post this and see if we can get a general consensus on cutting techniques post bulk to maximize fat loss, and minimize muscle loss.
My basic understanding is the following:- Get sufficient protein, which I tend to define as up to one gram per pound of body weight.
- Keep a small deficit 100 to 200 calories.
- Get adequate training stimulus that involves a blend of strength and hypertrophy.
I would be curious as to thoughts on what people feel is "adequate" training stimulus and amount of volume that one can handle on a cut, which I understand will also be dependent on how progressively one is cutting. I am still running PHUL in my cut and my volume is just about the same; however, on certain days instead of doing 4x4 on heavy compounds, I will cut that back to 3x4 if I am not "feeling it".
I would also be curious as to how everyone utilizes refeeds when cutting, as this is something that I do not think I am properly utilizing.
It still would be goal dependent. Powerlifts/Strength athletes need to be more focused on maintaining strength during a cut, where as a bodybuilder/physique person just needs to maintain or slightly back off the volume.
From experience I've been able to cut between 0.5/1.0 lb per week and maintain my strength using a 3x/week lifting program.
The amount of training volume you need to maintain is much less than what most people probably think it is.
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A few things to note, and this will be sort of random replies to bits and pieces in this thread.
First, I'd direct most of what I'm saying to people who have experience dieting and not to first timers since there are some behavioral and adherence aspects that are massively important that would come into play.
As far as deficit size, coming out of a bulk I don't think it's unreasonable to start out with a slightly aggressive deficit. You're theoretically fatter (because you just finished bulking), you're not going to be food focused (because you just finished bulking) and you're basically primed for fat loss. Because you are fatter, you are less likely to lose lean mass so you can afford to be more aggressive simply because more body fat is available to make up the energy gap).
So it may make sense to use a slightly aggressive deficit in the first 2 weeks or so of the diet provided that you know what you're doing and can execute this without adherence difficulties. I wouldn't take this approach with most people who are not already doing bulk and cut cycles, and well adjusted to dieting however.
Additionally, the flipside of dieting slowly is that you're dieting for a longer duration. For some people the slow approach is excellent and in fact with most general population clients I tend to favor this approach, and we do our best to make it as tolerable and "low stress" as possible so it doesn't feel like a challenging thing. That's the goal, anyway.
But there are definitely people (especially those will high levels of adherence, who for whatever reason have an innate ability to just suck it up) that will be better off going a bit faster, getting out of the deficit faster so that they can turn around and go back into a small surplus sooner. So you're spending more time in positive energy balance.
Regarding leptin upregulation, Lyle (someone who arguably popularized the idea of refeeds for upregulating leptin) recently mentioned that refeeding for a single day doesn't likely do anything appreciable for leptin because it just immediately plummets post refeed.
However, refeeds can still be plenty important for glycogen repletion and even more important for the psychological aspects of just having a higher intake of food.
I'd prioritize positioning the refeed where it best fits the lifestyle needs of the client and I'd put performance as a secondary criteria. So for example if leg day is Tuesday but chicken wings and beer day with the guys is Saturday, I'd put the refeed on Saturday for adherence purposes. I'm not sure if Eric Helms has changed his stance on this but I asked him this question about 6-8 months ago during a Skype session and he was also in this camp.
So whether the refeed has an appreciable effect on Leptin or not, it's still probably a very good idea. I currently have MOST people refeeding on a once per week basis but not everyone.
Regarding training volume, I don't tend to adjust training based on state of energy balance unless it's becoming apparent that the need is there to do so. I'd base that on recovery and how to handle that is going to depend on the client and his or her goals but generally I'd start by puling away total volume by removing sets but keeping weight on the bar and keeping rep ranges generally the same.
I think you could make a valid argument that you need to recover from the volume you are doing, but that if we take this too far and say "just do 1 set 1 time per week" at some point that becomes inferior in terms of overall results in strength/muscle mass.5 -
Following1
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Regarding leptin upregulation, Lyle (someone who arguably popularized the idea of refeeds for upregulating leptin) recently mentioned that refeeding for a single day doesn't likely do anything appreciable for leptin because it just immediately plummets post refeed.
However, refeeds can still be plenty important for glycogen repletion and even more important for the psychological aspects of just having a higher intake of food.
I'd prioritize positioning the refeed where it best fits the lifestyle needs of the client and I'd put performance as a secondary criteria. So for example if leg day is Tuesday but chicken wings and beer day with the guys is Saturday, I'd put the refeed on Saturday for adherence purposes. I'm not sure if Eric Helms has changed his stance on this but I asked him this question about 6-8 months ago during a Skype session and he was also in this camp.
So whether the refeed has an appreciable effect on Leptin or not, it's still probably a very good idea. I currently have MOST people refeeding on a once per week basis but not everyone.
Regarding training volume, I don't tend to adjust training based on state of energy balance unless it's becoming apparent that the need is there to do so. I'd base that on recovery and how to handle that is going to depend on the client and his or her goals but generally I'd start by puling away total volume by removing sets but keeping weight on the bar and keeping rep ranges generally the same.
I think you could make a valid argument that you need to recover from the volume you are doing, but that if we take this too far and say "just do 1 set 1 time per week" at some point that becomes inferior in terms of overall results in strength/muscle mass.
I remember reading about this. Did Lyle mention or hypothesize about how long an adequate refeed for the upregulation of leptin would be? I thought I remembered him mentioning eating at or slightly above maintenance for about a week or so... Just curious.
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still following.1
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I'm just finishing a bulk. My new plan will be to do exactly the same lifting as when I was bulking, but with some running thrown in. And I'll eat pretty much the same things, but now will keep my calories under 2000 (I don't track very carefully when bulking, outside of getting plenty of protein. I probably average around 2800, given the amount of beer I drink).
This allowed me to drop 15 pounds between Jan. 1 and April 1 last year, so I'm hoping for about the same results.
Also, I never track calories during weekends because life's too short.1 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »
Regarding leptin upregulation, Lyle (someone who arguably popularized the idea of refeeds for upregulating leptin) recently mentioned that refeeding for a single day doesn't likely do anything appreciable for leptin because it just immediately plummets post refeed.
However, refeeds can still be plenty important for glycogen repletion and even more important for the psychological aspects of just having a higher intake of food.
I'd prioritize positioning the refeed where it best fits the lifestyle needs of the client and I'd put performance as a secondary criteria. So for example if leg day is Tuesday but chicken wings and beer day with the guys is Saturday, I'd put the refeed on Saturday for adherence purposes. I'm not sure if Eric Helms has changed his stance on this but I asked him this question about 6-8 months ago during a Skype session and he was also in this camp.
So whether the refeed has an appreciable effect on Leptin or not, it's still probably a very good idea. I currently have MOST people refeeding on a once per week basis but not everyone.
Regarding training volume, I don't tend to adjust training based on state of energy balance unless it's becoming apparent that the need is there to do so. I'd base that on recovery and how to handle that is going to depend on the client and his or her goals but generally I'd start by puling away total volume by removing sets but keeping weight on the bar and keeping rep ranges generally the same.
I think you could make a valid argument that you need to recover from the volume you are doing, but that if we take this too far and say "just do 1 set 1 time per week" at some point that becomes inferior in terms of overall results in strength/muscle mass.
I remember reading about this. Did Lyle mention or hypothesize about how long an adequate refeed for the upregulation of leptin would be? I thought I remembered him mentioning eating at or slightly above maintenance for about a week or so... Just curious.
About 2 weeks at maintenance:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
http://rippedbody.jp/diet-break/1 -
Noted ^. Thank you!1
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »
Regarding leptin upregulation, Lyle (someone who arguably popularized the idea of refeeds for upregulating leptin) recently mentioned that refeeding for a single day doesn't likely do anything appreciable for leptin because it just immediately plummets post refeed.
However, refeeds can still be plenty important for glycogen repletion and even more important for the psychological aspects of just having a higher intake of food.
I'd prioritize positioning the refeed where it best fits the lifestyle needs of the client and I'd put performance as a secondary criteria. So for example if leg day is Tuesday but chicken wings and beer day with the guys is Saturday, I'd put the refeed on Saturday for adherence purposes. I'm not sure if Eric Helms has changed his stance on this but I asked him this question about 6-8 months ago during a Skype session and he was also in this camp.
So whether the refeed has an appreciable effect on Leptin or not, it's still probably a very good idea. I currently have MOST people refeeding on a once per week basis but not everyone.
Regarding training volume, I don't tend to adjust training based on state of energy balance unless it's becoming apparent that the need is there to do so. I'd base that on recovery and how to handle that is going to depend on the client and his or her goals but generally I'd start by puling away total volume by removing sets but keeping weight on the bar and keeping rep ranges generally the same.
I think you could make a valid argument that you need to recover from the volume you are doing, but that if we take this too far and say "just do 1 set 1 time per week" at some point that becomes inferior in terms of overall results in strength/muscle mass.
I remember reading about this. Did Lyle mention or hypothesize about how long an adequate refeed for the upregulation of leptin would be? I thought I remembered him mentioning eating at or slightly above maintenance for about a week or so... Just curious.
About 2 weeks at maintenance:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
http://rippedbody.jp/diet-break/
I agree with what Patrick said, so as to recap from my own experiences:- Keep volume up as long as you can, and only cut when you need to. I have made this mistake in the past before.
- I did not use refeeds on my most recent cut (200lbs down to 173lbs over 6-7 months). I was cutting around 2500-2600 calories though, so I was still fairly satiated. I also have good adherence, and do not succumb to cravings or anything. I allowed for flexibility and looser tracking on some days, or events like weddings etc.
- As for the dieting length of time... As Patrick said, it's going to depend upon if you have a tolerance for a slow or fast dieting method. I chose slow, because I like food and wanted to keep energy levels as high as possible in order to prevent performance from decreasing (which may/may not also impact lbm retention).
- I did take a 1 week diet break at maintenance calories/slightly above, mostly because I was feeling a bit run down 4-5 months in.
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Following as well. I'm looking to finish my bulk around March, and plan (tentatively) to start Jim Stoppani's 6 Week Shred program, as it seems to have a nice balance of strength/hypertrophy, and should help lose fat while still maintaining/growing muscle.1
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