Mixed-grip deadlifting - the Tuscherer view
jimmmer
Posts: 3,515 Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyLgClmzTYUReally interesting video by Mike Tuscherer on why he believes you should mix grip all your sets (even warm ups), not alternate your sup/pronation and even use this same sup/pronation on accessory work such as SLDL's.
In the past (in common with many people, I suspect), I've double-overhanded up to a certain percentage. Then shifted to mixed-grip (and even tried to make an effort to equalise mixed-grip either way over the rest of the working sets.)
Recently, I've been doing a lot of speedwork at a percentage that I would normally use a double-overhand on. In order to not turn the the whole exercise into a grip challenge I've basically just mixed-grip the whole thing and kept the supination the same side.
I've found this has dramatically cleaned up my set-up (which is arguably the most important part of the lift). Today, I did my whole DL day from warm-up to topset with a same-sided mixed grip.
Has anyone else gone the Tuscherer route and fully switched to this level of specificity?
Or do you think this is a mad thing to do and will ultimate lead to a torn bicep tendon and a quasimodo style hunchback
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Replicating motor skills is key with most lifts no matter the weight used.
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Replicating motor skills is key with most lifts no matter the weight used.
Sure. You know me Joe - I'm big on treating every rep like a single. So why not logically expand that out to every rep of the deadlift being the same pro/supination from start to finish, from warm-up to topset?
We don't alter (or we shouldn't try to, anyway) our form on the squat as we work our way up. Why do we find it acceptable with the deadlift?0 -
Interesting. I like the idea. I typically did overhand on my warm-ups then when it got heavier went to mixed but I like the idea of doing mixed all the time.
I'll have to watch the video a little later but the concept makes sense. I think I might still want to alternate hands just to help prevent imbalances? Or is that addressed. Gonna have to watch this video.0 -
Interesting. I like the idea. I typically did overhand on my warm-ups then when it got heavier went to mixed but I like the idea of doing mixed all the time.
I'll have to watch the video a little later but the concept makes sense. I think I might still want to alternate hands just to help prevent imbalances? Or is that addressed. Gonna have to watch this video.
His view is that the imbalance is the specific adaption to the lift that you want. He also has a view (not sure if it's aired elsewhere than the vid?) that all the extra work gets the tendon adapted to the heavier stuff and actually forestalls bicep tendon issues.0 -
Interesting. I like the idea. I typically did overhand on my warm-ups then when it got heavier went to mixed but I like the idea of doing mixed all the time.
I'll have to watch the video a little later but the concept makes sense. I think I might still want to alternate hands just to help prevent imbalances? Or is that addressed. Gonna have to watch this video.
His view is that the imbalance is the specific adaption to the lift that you want. He also has a view (not sure if it's aired elsewhere than the vid?) that all the extra work gets the tendon adapted to the heavier stuff and actually forestalls bicep tendon issues.
Interesting. And I certainly can see how competitive lifters would want that. I'm not sure I do. lol
Darn job requiring me to work.0 -
The only issue I have with not rotating grip is that you can change the way your traps develop- ask me how I know.
but I know I'm cleaner- stronger and less sloppy with alternate grip-I'd happily do it all the time if I had good reason to LOL Like everyone else- I generally prefer to do as much as I can working set up to 225. My grip sucks as it is. I personally don't have time to train my grip so much so I get as much in as I can out of the double over hand- I will have grip failure with alternate grip so it makes sense to me to continue to train the double over hand as that's the weak spot.0 -
The only issue I have with not rotating grip is that you can change the way your traps develop- ask me how I know.
but I know I'm cleaner- stronger and less sloppy with alternate grip-I'd happily do it all the time if I had good reason to LOL Like everyone else- I generally prefer to do as much as I can working set up to 225. My grip sucks as it is. I personally don't have time to train my grip so much so I get as much in as I can out of the double over hand- I will have grip failure with alternate grip so it makes sense to me to continue to train the double over hand as that's the weak spot.
Yeah, the grip training aspect - that's a point I hadn't thought of. I do a fair amount of fat grip rowing and loaded carries, so I get my grip-work in there. Like you say, if you don't have the time for that kind of malarky then double overhand up to a certain % is a great way of getting sneaky grip-work in.
Also on the asymmetry point: I still have one calf bigger than the other from being a skateboarder 25 years ago, so I feel your pain!
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Huh...I've been deadlifting this way since I learned the mixed grip, since I have to focus upon my lower back form to the exclusion of any other distraction, including potentially losing my grip.0
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Huh...I've been deadlifting this way since I learned the mixed grip, since I have to focus upon my lower back form to the exclusion of any other distraction, including potentially losing my grip.
Interesting.
So you do everything from the first warm-up rep to the last working rep, mixed grip with the same pro/supination each time? It's not something I'd ever thought of before watching this video recently. The prevailing orthodoxy is that you double overhand until you start to lose the grip and then switch.
Do you use it for SLDL and stuff like that? That's something else I'd never thought of until I came across the video...0 -
yeah- my work outs are pretty linear and only include 2 accessories (db flies and good mornings)- and they already take 1.5 hrs- and I'm usually cramming workouts in between work and dance or work and BFtime- or whatever- I only have 1 day where I have unfettered "take all the time you want" kind of lifts so sneaking it in there is really the best option.The only issue I have with not rotating grip is that you can change the way your traps develop- ask me how I know.
but I know I'm cleaner- stronger and less sloppy with alternate grip-I'd happily do it all the time if I had good reason to LOL Like everyone else- I generally prefer to do as much as I can working set up to 225. My grip sucks as it is. I personally don't have time to train my grip so much so I get as much in as I can out of the double over hand- I will have grip failure with alternate grip so it makes sense to me to continue to train the double over hand as that's the weak spot.
Yeah, the grip training aspect - that's a point I hadn't thought of. I do a fair amount of fat grip rowing and loaded carries, so I get my grip-work in there. Like you say, if you don't have the time for that kind of malarky then double overhand up to a certain % is a great way of getting sneaky grip-work in.
Also on the asymmetry point: I still have one calf bigger than the other from being a skateboarder 25 years ago, so I feel your pain!
I'm convinced a lot of my current in balance is because I pulled DL alt grip only one way for a year straight. I had one slightly bigger shoulder- and I think it's really impacted my lifting all the way down to the way I stand. So I'm hyper aware of trying to work as evenly as possible. #struggleisreal0 -
I've always used mix grip from warm up to work sets.0
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little_simon wrote: »I've always used mix grip from warm up to work sets.
See I didn't realise there was a whole secret group of diehard mixed-grippers out there...
the scales have fallen from my eyes!0 -
I agree with the specific adaptation. I remember I used to always feel funky when I switched from double overhand to mixed grip, like my set up would change.
However, I developed SI joint issues on the side of the pronated hand, and shoulder issues on the side of the supinated hand. Since, I've decided to abondon mixed grip all together and have been using straps. My goal will eventually go to hook grip if I ever compete.0 -
Good video. I can't really say I disagree with anything he says. The only thing I could quibble with is his idea of "always do same to get the one side used to the stress."
I agree with his hypothesis but for most of us lifters I think it'd still make more sense to get both tendons "used to it."
I'm also with JoRocka in that I do next to no other grip training outside of the warmup sets on my DLs so I'll probably continue doing that some. Maybe. idk.
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I double overhand up to ~250lb, and then mix grip (always right hand supinated) for the rest. I would mix grip everything, but I do want to improve my grip strength as much as possible and feel (I don't know) that it helps more with grip strength.
I do not think mixed grip inherently leads to bicep injuries.
My understanding is that bicep injuries are mostly from when people try to deadlift when their arms are not locked out straight. This forces the load onto the biceps and causes a tear. This can happen with any grip, but is more likely to happen on the supinated grip side (of the mixed grip) if you aren't intentional with your setup. Another common thing that can cause you to bend your elbows is bouncing to pull the slack out and that can happen with any grip.0 -
little_simon wrote: »I've always used mix grip from warm up to work sets.
Me too. Never considered doing it differently.0 -
Has anyone else gone the Tuscherer route and fully switched to this level of specificity?
Yes. Out of necessity. I found that if I warm-up double overhand and then switch grip on heavy sets my body just can't lift efficiently. I need to set the pattern in motion before I go heavy. Nowhere else in the powerlifts do we switch grips, mid-set, to something else.
If I am doing hypertrophy work (RDL or SLDL) then double overhand since I am 50% of max.0 -
nakedraygun wrote: »Has anyone else gone the Tuscherer route and fully switched to this level of specificity?
Yes. Out of necessity. I found that if I warm-up double overhand and then switch grip on heavy sets my body just can't lift efficiently. I need to set the pattern in motion before I go heavy. Nowhere else in the powerlifts do we switch grips, mid-set, to something else.
If I am doing hypertrophy work (RDL or SLDL) then double overhand since I am 50% of max.
Yeah, basically totally what I was thinking based on recent speedwork experience and watching this video.
I'm a convert!0 -
You remember when I freaked-out this summer over my deadlifts and almost dropped out of my first meet? (Which is my profile picture deadlifting.)nakedraygun wrote: »Has anyone else gone the Tuscherer route and fully switched to this level of specificity?
Yes. Out of necessity. I found that if I warm-up double overhand and then switch grip on heavy sets my body just can't lift efficiently. I need to set the pattern in motion before I go heavy. Nowhere else in the powerlifts do we switch grips, mid-set, to something else.
If I am doing hypertrophy work (RDL or SLDL) then double overhand since I am 50% of max.
Yeah, basically totally what I was thinking based on recent speedwork experience and watching this video.
I'm a convert!
It was because I started double over and then my form was all wacktiy-wack when I hit the heavy stuff (85+%).
I thought long and hard about my failure that day and what I came up with was the fact that I had changed my grip and I recalled how odd my body moved during those heavier lifts. That's the day I decided to always pull in my competition grip, and likewise, always treat each rep as a single.0 -
Thinking out loud here, but I wonder how many of those bicep injuries are injured whilst also hitching the bar forcing the lockout.nordlead2005 wrote: »My understanding is that bicep injuries are mostly from when people try to deadlift when their arms are not locked out straight. This forces the load onto the biceps and causes a tear. This can happen with any grip, but is more likely to happen on the supinated grip side (of the mixed grip) if you aren't intentional with your setup. Another common thing that can cause you to bend your elbows is bouncing to pull the slack out and that can happen with any grip.0 -
i only use mixed grip when i deadlift. it screws my head up if i am thinking about my grip, i am just going on motor memory and what my body is trained to do. Im not worried about being lopsided because my upper body is trained on enough other exercises all week long to balance out any unevenness from a few mix grip pulls a couple times a week.0
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I think the mixed grip thing is old news really but it was kept really in the strength training community and not known by the more recreationally active. Especially the concept about going double-over hand until main work sets, I don't even know where that came from. I read back in like 2001 to use a mixed grip from start to finish to make sure everything warms-up the same. Glad the information is out there for everybody now, good stuff.0
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It kind of makes intuitive sense, doesn't it? "Work double over because it will make your grip stronger, and then switch grip when it gets heavy." I can see the reasoning there, because I followed it for quite awhile. Of course, the obvious (to me now) is that we are not just training the grip, we are training the deadlift.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I think the mixed grip thing is old news really but it was kept really in the strength training community and not known by the more recreationally active. Especially the concept about going double-over hand until main work sets, I don't even know where that came from. I read back in like 2001 to use a mixed grip from start to finish to make sure everything warms-up the same. Glad the information is out there for everybody now, good stuff.0 -
Do you use it for SLDL and stuff like that? That's something else I'd never thought of until I came across the video...
I do double-over for RDL since the weight never gets that heavy, certainly nowhere near as heavy as I pull on DL. But then I just added RDL to my routine (I've been badly neglecting my hamstrings), so we'll see how things go as I get heavier.
I do a mixed grip on BB shrugs, alternating over/under each set, since I shrug pretty heavy.0
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