Question for those doing 5/3/1

spingirl605

Ok, so I have been doing 5/3/1 since September (when I was a true noobie to lifting weights). I'm in cycle 5 (week 21) and I think I need a bit of a revamp. Those of you that are following the program I have a question on your assisted lifts. So on the day when you do squats for example, do all of your assisted lifts revolve around legs and/or hams? For example, on squat day, my main assisted lift is Good Mornings, but then for my minor assisted I am doing leg presses, back extensions, DB tricep extensions and sit ups...My question is, should I swap out the tricep extensions for another leg or hamstring exercise? And when do you do back?? On upper body days, or lower body days. I feel like I'm all over the place and I want to have it structured properly to get the most out of the program. I've come a long way since September, and with every cycle I like to try to push the envelope a little bit more. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

jimmmer

The biggest thing a newer lifter needs is to practice the lifts.

I would suggest running BBB for a few cycles and alternate the lifts, so something like:

a) 5/3/1 OHP, BBB Bench (5x10x50%), pulling exercises (chins, rows, face pulls, band pull aparts, etc - you can sandwich this stuff between your OHP and bench sets if you are time crunched/want to be efficient)

b) 5/3/1 Deadlift, BBB Squat, Abs (leg raises, ab wheel, etc)

off

c) 5/3/1 Bench, BBB OHP, pulling exercises (same as for (a))

d) 5/3/1 Squat, BBB Deadlift, Abs (see (b))

off

off

You'll find that the frequency is right (each lift 2x week), the volume is good (esp if you want to push yourself a bit), and the sheer number of reps will allow you to dial in technique and become a much better lifter (if you pay attention and try to make all reps of the same quality).

After 3 cycles of that, decide where you are weakest and target your main accessory work to that. You would probably benefit from trying out the SST with these lifts and rotating new lifts in on a 2-3 cycle basis. For instance, deficit deads, or snatch-grip deads, if you are weak off the floor. Pin work if you are weak at lock out. Paused work if you need to stabilise a position (e.g. pauses in the hole for squats). Lots of options that should be targeted to your specific issues at that time.

ovidnine

Jimmer has this covered.

jacksonpt

I agree with Jimmer that more volume/frequency will help you learn the lifts. But if that's not a problem/priority for you, then it's kind of moot.

Did you read the 5/3/1 book, or just pickup a template of the programming and get to work? The book is worth reading, especially the first book as it does a good job establishing the correct mindset for the program. The gist, at least of what applies to your question, is that accessory lifts can be pretty much whatever you want them to be. As long as you are giving max effort to the main lift for the day and not saving some energy for you accessory work, there is no real wrong way to accessory.

Depending on your goals/preferences, you could do all complimentary work. You could do all opposing work. You could target weakness or imbalances. You could fill holes in the programming. It's really up to you.

jimmmer

jacksonpt wrote: »

I agree with Jimmer that more volume/frequency will help you learn the lifts. But if that's not a problem/priority for you, then it's kind of moot.

Did you read the 5/3/1 book, or just pickup a template of the programming and get to work? The book is worth reading, especially the first book as it does a good job establishing the correct mindset for the program. The gist, at least of what applies to your question, is that accessory lifts can be pretty much whatever you want them to be. As long as you are giving max effort to the main lift for the day and not saving some energy for you accessory work, there is no real wrong way to accessory.

Depending on your goals/preferences, you could do all complimentary work. You could do all opposing work. You could target weakness or imbalances. You could fill holes in the programming. It's really up to you.

She's only been at it since September - I'm assuming she needs to get the technique dialled in still.

Also, as I said, it will expose her to where she's weak in the lifts. She basically, doesn't know what assistance to do at the moment and that's because she doesn't have enough familiarity with her own lifting technique to work out what she needs.

Finally the focus on core/lat work will swiftly bring up the areas that need to be tight in order to effectively brace for the lifts.

After 3 solid cycles of that she should have some idea where she's weak/where form breaks down. Then she can identify the correct stuff to do herself.

It's not that there's a right/wrong way to do accessory/assistance (although doing a bunch of assistance work for something that isn't holding you back is a waste of time, IMHO), but that you want your efforts to be effective.

jemhh

For me, if I'm doing a 4 day upper/lower split, when it's a lower body day, I do lower body stuff. Upper body days, I do upper body stuff. This is how I arranged it last fall and what I may get back to later this year:

1) Squat (5/3/1), walking lunges, hip thrust, RDL/leg curl superset
2) OHP (5/3/1)/lat pulldown superset, dumbbell bench/dumbbell row superset, skullcrushers/band pull part superset (skip if I'm short on time)
3) Deadlift (5/3/1), front squat/step up superset, back raise/barbell glute bridge superset
4) Bench (5/3/1)/chest supported dumbbell rows superset, incline press/lat pulldown superset, curl/single leg glute bridge superset (SLGB is lower body but I try to do glute stuff 3x/wk and this is where it fit best for me.)

spingirl605

Ok, so this is all very good advice! Thanks for that...And yes, I have read the book a couple of times (some sections more than others). I'm doing a 3-day rotation because I teach cardio classes on my off days. Maybe it would help if I show you what I have going on this cycle, and you can help me tweak it, cause like I said, I feel like I'm all over the place. I have 3 days in a row with tricep work...So here is what it looks like:

Day 1

Military Max 60#
warm up 1 x 5@ 25#
1 x 5@ 30#
1 x 3@ 35#
working 1 x 5 @ 40#
1 x 5@ 45#
1 x 5@ 55#

Close Grip BP Max 80
1 x 10@ 40#
1 x 10@ 50#
1 x 10@ 55#

DB Bench 3 x 8 @ 35#
Tricep Puslldowns 5 x 10@ 70#
DB chest flys 5 x 10@ 20#
Medicine ball pushups 5 x 5

---

Day 2

Dead lift Max 150#
warm up 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5@ 75
1 x 3@ 90
working 1 x 5 @ 100
1 x 5@ 115
1 x 5 @ 125

Front Squat Max 90#
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 55
1 x 10@ 65

BB rows 3 x 8@ 75
Bicep curls 5 x 10@ 35
DB side bends 5 x 10@ 35
Tricep dips 5 x 5

---

Day 3

Bench Max 95#
warm up 1 x 5@ 40
1 x 5@ 45
1 x 3 @ 55
working 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5@ 70
1 x 5@ 80

Incline Press Max 75
1 x 10@ 40
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 55

DB Military 3 x 8 @ 25
DB Rows 5 x 10@ 25
Chin ups 5 x 10 (assisted with bands)
V-crunches 100

---

Day 1

squat Max 145#

warm up 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5 @ 75
1 x 3@ 85
working 1 x 5@ 95
1 x 5@ 110
1 x 5@ 125

Good morning Max 85
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 50
1 x 10@ 60

Leg press 3 x 8@ 170
Back extension 5 x 10@ 20
DB Tricep extension 5 x 10@ 25
sit ups 100@ 25

jemhh

spingirl605 wrote: »

Ok, so this is all very good advice! Thanks for that...And yes, I have read the book a couple of times (some sections more than others). I'm doing a 3-day rotation because I teach cardio classes on my off days. Maybe it would help if I show you what I have going on this cycle, and you can help me tweak it, cause like I said, I feel like I'm all over the place. I have 3 days in a row with tricep work...So here is what it looks like:

Day 1

Military Max 60#
warm up 1 x 5@ 25#
1 x 5@ 30#
1 x 3@ 35#
working 1 x 5 @ 40#
1 x 5@ 45#
1 x 5@ 55#

Close Grip BP Max 80
1 x 10@ 40#
1 x 10@ 50#
1 x 10@ 55#

DB Bench 3 x 8 @ 35#
Tricep Puslldowns 5 x 10@ 70#
DB chest flys 5 x 10@ 20#
Medicine ball pushups 5 x 5

---

Day 2

Dead lift Max 150#
warm up 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5@ 75
1 x 3@ 90
working 1 x 5 @ 100
1 x 5@ 115
1 x 5 @ 125

Front Squat Max 90#
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 55
1 x 10@ 65

BB rows 3 x 8@ 75
Bicep curls 5 x 10@ 35
DB side bends 5 x 10@ 35
Tricep dips 5 x 5

---

Day 3

Bench Max 95#
warm up 1 x 5@ 40
1 x 5@ 45
1 x 3 @ 55
working 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5@ 70
1 x 5@ 80

Incline Press Max 75
1 x 10@ 40
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 55

DB Military 3 x 8 @ 25
DB Rows 5 x 10@ 25
Chin ups 5 x 10 (assisted with bands)
V-crunches 100

---

Day 1

squat Max 145#

warm up 1 x 5@ 60
1 x 5 @ 75
1 x 3@ 85
working 1 x 5@ 95
1 x 5@ 110
1 x 5@ 125

Good morning Max 85
1 x 10@ 45
1 x 10@ 50
1 x 10@ 60

Leg press 3 x 8@ 170
Back extension 5 x 10@ 20
DB Tricep extension 5 x 10@ 25
sit ups 100@ 25

You might like his Full Body Training template. I'm assuming you have the 1st book. I don't know if the percentages are the same across all e-readers but he starts talking about it at 62% on my phone's Kindle app. It's labeled "5/3/1 Full Body Training." There are four phases and the first is:

Day 1
Squat (5/3/1)
Dumbbell bench press (though you can use another push here) 3x10-15
Dumbbell rows (you can use another pull) 3x10

Day 2
Squat (reduced %s)
Bench (5/3/1)
Chins/pull-ups (you can use another pull) 3x10

Day 3
Squat (reduced %s)
Press (5/3/1)
Deadlift (5/3/1)

If you wanted to, you could still do your good mornings, curls, bends, and back extensions throughout the week.

jimmmer

Nothing you have as your main accessory is inherently bad.

CG will help drive up OHP,

Front squat can be a great way to develop leg-drive for the DL

Good Mornings can be a great way to shore up spinal erector weakpoints, etc for the back squat.

The stuff outside of that, needs to be for a reason. Are you doing a bunch of curls because you're specifically looking for bicep hypertrophy, think it may drive up a main movement, or just to "do some arms"? Ask yourself these questions for everything other than your secondary movement for the minute.

If you're continuing to progress on the main and secondary movements - keep them.

Then ask yourself for everything else: a) Do I want to hypertrophy this bodypart? b) Does improving this movement drive up progress on the Main or Secondary compound lift? If you find no useful answer for something, it's probably discardable for something more intelligently chosen towards your goal.

spingirl605

I like your advice jimmmer, and that's a good question...Why do I want to do bicep curls? I guess Hypertrophy isn't the ultimate goal, but nicely shaped arms is. I don't want to grow them to the point of doing body building competitions, but I want some volume there, so you can see the muscle when wearing a tank top. So maybe bicep curls aren't the best choice? I'm still learning so much. I'm a sponge absorbing all I can. Much appreciated!!

spingirl605

And jemhh, I only have his first book...I will look for others from him.

jimmmer

spingirl605 wrote: »

I like your advice jimmmer, and that's a good question...Why do I want to do bicep curls? I guess Hypertrophy isn't the ultimate goal, but nicely shaped arms is. I don't want to grow them to the point of doing body building competitions, but I want some volume there, so you can see the muscle when wearing a tank top. So maybe bicep curls aren't the best choice? I'm still learning so much. I'm a sponge absorbing all I can. Much appreciated!!

No problem.

I find Bruce Lee is helpful at moments like these: “Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own”. Works for most things...

Throwing a bunch of stuff at a wall - AKA the kitchen sink approach - and seeing what sticks perhaps isn't the greatest path to success. Training economy - getting the most bang-for-your-buck from the least number of movements - is a pretty good guiding principle. Then add in the stuff that fills the holes: hypertrophy, weak points, activation, explosiveness, etc

jimmmer

spingirl605 wrote: »

And jemhh, I only have his first book...I will look for others from him.

The only other book you need is "Beyond 5/3/1" since it incorporates most of the material in some form from 5/3/1 for powerlifting.

It basically has a bunch of multi-cycle challenges that can help you push your training in a specific area: conditioning, strength, hypertrophy, frequency, etc