Food for thought ...
kellysdavies
Posts: 160 Member
Replies
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I see what you did there.0
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Sorry, I don't do well on LCHF and I'm not a fan of the idea of IF. IDIC.
Besides, everywhere you look you get evidence for and against each type of diet.
I personally advocate a high-fiber nutrient-dense diet, whatever macros you choose, if you choose them at all. Go with what the body feels like and craves, as that can be an indication of what nutrients it is in need of. For example, yesterday I felt like eating lots of meat. I had bacon with breakfast, fish with lunch and chicken with dinner and snack. Today, I don't feel like eating that much meat. I did have some bacon with breakfast, but I'm having hemp seeds with dinner and thinking of having walnuts with lunch.0 -
Link won't open for me, but based on the title of the site, and the analysis LHWhite provided, I'm guessing it's a keto evangelist site?0
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »Link won't open for me, but based on the title of the site, and the analysis LHWhite provided, I'm guessing it's a keto evangelist site?
Yes, it argues that CICO is a "fabrication" with a "failure rate of roughly 99%." Your body cannot burn fat if there are any calories from sugar available. We are all just pretending that we lost weight. The "calorie pundits never understand why their model doesn't work."
I am concerned that I completely imagined going from size 12 to size 0 while counting calories and still consuming carbohydrates. I am about to make an appointment with a team of mental health professionals to investigate the root cause of my delusions.0 -
Ah...good. I have my computer trained to not open derp sites. Looks like it's working.0
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »Link won't open for me, but based on the title of the site, and the analysis LHWhite provided, I'm guessing it's a keto evangelist site?
Here's the full text. There are also a lot of graphics depicting fat storage as a sink, fridge, or freezer, but it didn't feel like those were important to transfer here.One of the major mistakes made by the Calories In/ Calories Out (CICO) hypothesis is the presumption that energy is stored in the body as a single compartment. They consider that all foods can be reduced to their caloric equivalent and then stored in a single compartment in the body (Calories In). The body then uses this energy for basal metabolism and exercise (Calories Out).
This model looks something like this:
1CompartmentModel
All energy is stored in that one compartment. However, this model is a complete fabrication. It does not exist. This known mis-understanding has led to general acceptance of the CICO theorem. According to this model, by reducing the amount of calories going in, or increasing the amount going out, you may reduce the amount of body energy stored as fat.
Of course, this Eat Less, Move More (or Caloric Reduction as Primary) strategy has a known success rate of about 1% or a failure rate of roughly 99%. This does not deter any of the medical or nutritional authorities to question the sagacity of their advice, though.
To better understand how energy is stored in the body, it is more accurate to use a two compartment model. Dr. Kieron Rooney’s diagram demonstrates that the body is able to derive energy from 3 sources – glucose (carbs), fat or protein. However, protein is not stored as an energy source and is only used when there is excessive dietary protein after which it is turned to glucose.
So, this leaves two potential fuel sources – glucose and fat – and these are stored in different compartments. Glucose is stored in the liver as glycogen – a molecule that is composed of long chains of sugars. This is easily accessible to the body, but there is a limited amount that is able to be stored. After that threshold is reached, the body stores fat. Think of glycogen like a refrigerator. It is very easy to move food in and out of the fridge, but the storage space is limited.473497631
Body fat is much more difficult to access, but you may store unlimited amounts. Dietary fat is directly added to the body’s fat stores. Excessive carbohydrates are turned into fat by the process known as De Novo Lipogenesis (DNL). Think of body fat as a freezer that you store in your basement – you can store lots of food in the freezer but it is more difficult to get at it compared to the fridge. You can also store more than 1 freezer in the basement if you need more space.Macro oxidation
As you eat, the body stores energy. As you don’t eat (fast), the body must take stored energy from the body to burn for fuel. But it does not take equal amount from both compartments (fat and glycogen). Glycogen is burned almost exclusively until it is finished – this can last 24-48 hours of pure fasting.
This is logical since it is much easier for the body to get at the glycogen. Think about it this way. If you buy groceries, you first store it in the fridge. Once it is full, then you start to store it in the freezer. When it comes to taking food out to eat, you start by eating the food in the fridge.
zh10080957560005Only after almost the glycogen is already burned for energy does the body turns to its stores of fat. Similarly, only when the food in the fridge is gone do you want to go downstairs to that cold dank basement to get the food in the freezer. It takes more effort. You do not burn equal amounts of glucose and fat. For example, if your glycogen ‘fridge’ is full, you will not use any of your fat in the ‘freezer’. If you need 200 calories of energy to go for a walk, you take that exclusively out of the glycogen with none of the fat being burned.
The two compartments for energy are not burned simultaneously, but sequentially. You need to empty out the fridge before you can start using the food in the freezer. In essence, the body can either burn sugar or fat, but not both. This is controlled partially by insulin, and also directly by the Randle cycle – described in 1963. This is also sometimes called the glucose-fatty acid cycle.
In isolated heart and skeletal muscle cell preparations, Randle and his colleagues were able to show that cells that were using glucose for energy were inhibited from using fat and vice versa without any interference from insulin or other hormones. This biochemical mechanism directly forbids the body from using both fuels at once. You either burn sugar or fat, but not both. You can see from the diagram that using glucose eventually leads to the production of Malonyl-CoA which inhibits the use of fat (LCFA – Long Chain Fatty Acid).2CompartModel
So, why can’t you lose weight using the CICO method? Because it is based on the incorrect idea that all calories are equal. When you store food energy (calories), it is stored as sugar (glycogen) in the ‘fridge’ and fat in the ‘freezer’. But you must burn through the sugar first before you can start burning fat.
So, now you want to lose body fat. The first thing you need to do is clear out the sugar in your refrigerator. However, if you are continually filling up your fridge 3-6 times a day with sugar, then you will never start burning the fat in the freezer. The CICO method ignores the two compartment problem and pretends that all calories are stored equally and burned equally (single compartment), even though this has been known to be false for at least 50 years. This standard calorie restricted diet of eating 3-6 meals a day with a relatively high carbohydrate (50-60%) content.
You imagine that since you are filing up the fridge with less glucose, it will eventually empty. However, this does not happen. Why? Because, as you start putting less food in the fridge, your body senses that and starts to get antsy. So, it starts to make you hungry and want to eat more. If you don’t fill it up, it will decrease your metabolism so that it is burning less energy.
What’s the solution? First, you could follow a Low Carb, High Fat (LCHF) diet. By severely restricting the amount of carbohydrates, we keep our glucose fridge empty. Now any energy that must be burned must come out of fat freezer. This essentially turns the two compartment problem into a single compartment problem.2CompartFasting
Second, you could try intermittent fasting (IF). Fasting essentially burns through all the stored sugars in the fridge quickly. Will you get hungry? Yes, probably. But if you push through that, your body is forced to burn fat for energy. The metabolism does not slow down because of the compensatory hormonal changes of fasting. After several days, hunger is also suppressed – the mechanism is unknown, but likely related to the ketone production.
The bottom line is this. You can store energy in the form of sugar or fat. In the fasted starte – you can either burn sugar or fat for energy, but not both. If you are continually supplying your body with sugar, it will not burn fat.
Fasting provides a very quick way to start burning fat. It provides a solution to the two compartment problem. The reason why the Calorie pundits never understand why their model doesn’t work is because they have fundamentally mis-understood the problem as a single compartment.0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »Link won't open for me, but based on the title of the site, and the analysis LHWhite provided, I'm guessing it's a keto evangelist site?
Here's the full text. There are also a lot of graphics depicting fat storage as a sink, fridge, or freezer, but it didn't feel like those were important to transfer here.One of the major mistakes made by the Calories In/ Calories Out (CICO) hypothesis is the presumption that energy is stored in the body as a single compartment. They consider that all foods can be reduced to their caloric equivalent and then stored in a single compartment in the body (Calories In). The body then uses this energy for basal metabolism and exercise (Calories Out).
This model looks something like this:
1CompartmentModel
All energy is stored in that one compartment. However, this model is a complete fabrication. It does not exist. This known mis-understanding has led to general acceptance of the CICO theorem. According to this model, by reducing the amount of calories going in, or increasing the amount going out, you may reduce the amount of body energy stored as fat.
Of course, this Eat Less, Move More (or Caloric Reduction as Primary) strategy has a known success rate of about 1% or a failure rate of roughly 99%. This does not deter any of the medical or nutritional authorities to question the sagacity of their advice, though.
To better understand how energy is stored in the body, it is more accurate to use a two compartment model. Dr. Kieron Rooney’s diagram demonstrates that the body is able to derive energy from 3 sources – glucose (carbs), fat or protein. However, protein is not stored as an energy source and is only used when there is excessive dietary protein after which it is turned to glucose.
So, this leaves two potential fuel sources – glucose and fat – and these are stored in different compartments. Glucose is stored in the liver as glycogen – a molecule that is composed of long chains of sugars. This is easily accessible to the body, but there is a limited amount that is able to be stored. After that threshold is reached, the body stores fat. Think of glycogen like a refrigerator. It is very easy to move food in and out of the fridge, but the storage space is limited.473497631
Body fat is much more difficult to access, but you may store unlimited amounts. Dietary fat is directly added to the body’s fat stores. Excessive carbohydrates are turned into fat by the process known as De Novo Lipogenesis (DNL). Think of body fat as a freezer that you store in your basement – you can store lots of food in the freezer but it is more difficult to get at it compared to the fridge. You can also store more than 1 freezer in the basement if you need more space.Macro oxidation
As you eat, the body stores energy. As you don’t eat (fast), the body must take stored energy from the body to burn for fuel. But it does not take equal amount from both compartments (fat and glycogen). Glycogen is burned almost exclusively until it is finished – this can last 24-48 hours of pure fasting.
This is logical since it is much easier for the body to get at the glycogen. Think about it this way. If you buy groceries, you first store it in the fridge. Once it is full, then you start to store it in the freezer. When it comes to taking food out to eat, you start by eating the food in the fridge.
zh10080957560005Only after almost the glycogen is already burned for energy does the body turns to its stores of fat. Similarly, only when the food in the fridge is gone do you want to go downstairs to that cold dank basement to get the food in the freezer. It takes more effort. You do not burn equal amounts of glucose and fat. For example, if your glycogen ‘fridge’ is full, you will not use any of your fat in the ‘freezer’. If you need 200 calories of energy to go for a walk, you take that exclusively out of the glycogen with none of the fat being burned.
The two compartments for energy are not burned simultaneously, but sequentially. You need to empty out the fridge before you can start using the food in the freezer. In essence, the body can either burn sugar or fat, but not both. This is controlled partially by insulin, and also directly by the Randle cycle – described in 1963. This is also sometimes called the glucose-fatty acid cycle.
In isolated heart and skeletal muscle cell preparations, Randle and his colleagues were able to show that cells that were using glucose for energy were inhibited from using fat and vice versa without any interference from insulin or other hormones. This biochemical mechanism directly forbids the body from using both fuels at once. You either burn sugar or fat, but not both. You can see from the diagram that using glucose eventually leads to the production of Malonyl-CoA which inhibits the use of fat (LCFA – Long Chain Fatty Acid).2CompartModel
So, why can’t you lose weight using the CICO method? Because it is based on the incorrect idea that all calories are equal. When you store food energy (calories), it is stored as sugar (glycogen) in the ‘fridge’ and fat in the ‘freezer’. But you must burn through the sugar first before you can start burning fat.
So, now you want to lose body fat. The first thing you need to do is clear out the sugar in your refrigerator. However, if you are continually filling up your fridge 3-6 times a day with sugar, then you will never start burning the fat in the freezer. The CICO method ignores the two compartment problem and pretends that all calories are stored equally and burned equally (single compartment), even though this has been known to be false for at least 50 years. This standard calorie restricted diet of eating 3-6 meals a day with a relatively high carbohydrate (50-60%) content.
You imagine that since you are filing up the fridge with less glucose, it will eventually empty. However, this does not happen. Why? Because, as you start putting less food in the fridge, your body senses that and starts to get antsy. So, it starts to make you hungry and want to eat more. If you don’t fill it up, it will decrease your metabolism so that it is burning less energy.
What’s the solution? First, you could follow a Low Carb, High Fat (LCHF) diet. By severely restricting the amount of carbohydrates, we keep our glucose fridge empty. Now any energy that must be burned must come out of fat freezer. This essentially turns the two compartment problem into a single compartment problem.2CompartFasting
Second, you could try intermittent fasting (IF). Fasting essentially burns through all the stored sugars in the fridge quickly. Will you get hungry? Yes, probably. But if you push through that, your body is forced to burn fat for energy. The metabolism does not slow down because of the compensatory hormonal changes of fasting. After several days, hunger is also suppressed – the mechanism is unknown, but likely related to the ketone production.
The bottom line is this. You can store energy in the form of sugar or fat. In the fasted starte – you can either burn sugar or fat for energy, but not both. If you are continually supplying your body with sugar, it will not burn fat.
Fasting provides a very quick way to start burning fat. It provides a solution to the two compartment problem. The reason why the Calorie pundits never understand why their model doesn’t work is because they have fundamentally mis-understood the problem as a single compartment.
You didn't include the pictures? You're completely compromising the scientific integrity of the argument.0 -
This is the second time I've read a "calorie counting can't possibly work for X science reason!" this morning. Which tells me one of two things. Either:
1) Somehow, without trying at all, everyone who simply did the CI>CO thing and met their weight goals stumbled into the perfect method of weight loss, which incidentally made it look like the CI>CO method works.
2) We as a culture have started to way overcomplicate weight loss, and are desperately scrambling to make it more complicated to explain outliers. (Because there are situations wherein CI>CO doesn't work, usually because of factors affecting the "CO" side that cannot be found by a simple online TDEE calculator.)
I'll let y'all vote on it.0 -
Sigh...0
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Well, I'm afraid my scale hasn't read this article because the stubborn b**** keeps going down in spite of all my fridge-filling!!!
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This is the second time I've read a "calorie counting can't possibly work for X science reason!" this morning. Which tells me one of two things. Either:
1) Somehow, without trying at all, everyone who simply did the CI>CO thing and met their weight goals stumbled into the perfect method of weight loss, which incidentally made it look like the CI>CO method works.
2) We as a culture have started to way overcomplicate weight loss, and are desperately scrambling to make it more complicated to explain outliers. (Because there are situations wherein CI>CO doesn't work, usually because of factors affecting the "CO" side that cannot be found by a simple online TDEE calculator.)
I'll let y'all vote on it.
#2. Eat Less Move More just isn't sexy enough. Find a Way of Eating that Allows You to Eat Less and Move More is too long.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »Link won't open for me, but based on the title of the site, and the analysis LHWhite provided, I'm guessing it's a keto evangelist site?
Here's the full text. There are also a lot of graphics depicting fat storage as a sink, fridge, or freezer, but it didn't feel like those were important to transfer here.One of the major mistakes made by the Calories In/ Calories Out (CICO) hypothesis is the presumption that energy is stored in the body as a single compartment. They consider that all foods can be reduced to their caloric equivalent and then stored in a single compartment in the body (Calories In). The body then uses this energy for basal metabolism and exercise (Calories Out).
This model looks something like this:
1CompartmentModel
All energy is stored in that one compartment. However, this model is a complete fabrication. It does not exist. This known mis-understanding has led to general acceptance of the CICO theorem. According to this model, by reducing the amount of calories going in, or increasing the amount going out, you may reduce the amount of body energy stored as fat.
Of course, this Eat Less, Move More (or Caloric Reduction as Primary) strategy has a known success rate of about 1% or a failure rate of roughly 99%. This does not deter any of the medical or nutritional authorities to question the sagacity of their advice, though.
To better understand how energy is stored in the body, it is more accurate to use a two compartment model. Dr. Kieron Rooney’s diagram demonstrates that the body is able to derive energy from 3 sources – glucose (carbs), fat or protein. However, protein is not stored as an energy source and is only used when there is excessive dietary protein after which it is turned to glucose.
So, this leaves two potential fuel sources – glucose and fat – and these are stored in different compartments. Glucose is stored in the liver as glycogen – a molecule that is composed of long chains of sugars. This is easily accessible to the body, but there is a limited amount that is able to be stored. After that threshold is reached, the body stores fat. Think of glycogen like a refrigerator. It is very easy to move food in and out of the fridge, but the storage space is limited.473497631
Body fat is much more difficult to access, but you may store unlimited amounts. Dietary fat is directly added to the body’s fat stores. Excessive carbohydrates are turned into fat by the process known as De Novo Lipogenesis (DNL). Think of body fat as a freezer that you store in your basement – you can store lots of food in the freezer but it is more difficult to get at it compared to the fridge. You can also store more than 1 freezer in the basement if you need more space.Macro oxidation
As you eat, the body stores energy. As you don’t eat (fast), the body must take stored energy from the body to burn for fuel. But it does not take equal amount from both compartments (fat and glycogen). Glycogen is burned almost exclusively until it is finished – this can last 24-48 hours of pure fasting.
This is logical since it is much easier for the body to get at the glycogen. Think about it this way. If you buy groceries, you first store it in the fridge. Once it is full, then you start to store it in the freezer. When it comes to taking food out to eat, you start by eating the food in the fridge.
zh10080957560005Only after almost the glycogen is already burned for energy does the body turns to its stores of fat. Similarly, only when the food in the fridge is gone do you want to go downstairs to that cold dank basement to get the food in the freezer. It takes more effort. You do not burn equal amounts of glucose and fat. For example, if your glycogen ‘fridge’ is full, you will not use any of your fat in the ‘freezer’. If you need 200 calories of energy to go for a walk, you take that exclusively out of the glycogen with none of the fat being burned.
The two compartments for energy are not burned simultaneously, but sequentially. You need to empty out the fridge before you can start using the food in the freezer. In essence, the body can either burn sugar or fat, but not both. This is controlled partially by insulin, and also directly by the Randle cycle – described in 1963. This is also sometimes called the glucose-fatty acid cycle.
In isolated heart and skeletal muscle cell preparations, Randle and his colleagues were able to show that cells that were using glucose for energy were inhibited from using fat and vice versa without any interference from insulin or other hormones. This biochemical mechanism directly forbids the body from using both fuels at once. You either burn sugar or fat, but not both. You can see from the diagram that using glucose eventually leads to the production of Malonyl-CoA which inhibits the use of fat (LCFA – Long Chain Fatty Acid).2CompartModel
So, why can’t you lose weight using the CICO method? Because it is based on the incorrect idea that all calories are equal. When you store food energy (calories), it is stored as sugar (glycogen) in the ‘fridge’ and fat in the ‘freezer’. But you must burn through the sugar first before you can start burning fat.
So, now you want to lose body fat. The first thing you need to do is clear out the sugar in your refrigerator. However, if you are continually filling up your fridge 3-6 times a day with sugar, then you will never start burning the fat in the freezer. The CICO method ignores the two compartment problem and pretends that all calories are stored equally and burned equally (single compartment), even though this has been known to be false for at least 50 years. This standard calorie restricted diet of eating 3-6 meals a day with a relatively high carbohydrate (50-60%) content.
You imagine that since you are filing up the fridge with less glucose, it will eventually empty. However, this does not happen. Why? Because, as you start putting less food in the fridge, your body senses that and starts to get antsy. So, it starts to make you hungry and want to eat more. If you don’t fill it up, it will decrease your metabolism so that it is burning less energy.
What’s the solution? First, you could follow a Low Carb, High Fat (LCHF) diet. By severely restricting the amount of carbohydrates, we keep our glucose fridge empty. Now any energy that must be burned must come out of fat freezer. This essentially turns the two compartment problem into a single compartment problem.2CompartFasting
Second, you could try intermittent fasting (IF). Fasting essentially burns through all the stored sugars in the fridge quickly. Will you get hungry? Yes, probably. But if you push through that, your body is forced to burn fat for energy. The metabolism does not slow down because of the compensatory hormonal changes of fasting. After several days, hunger is also suppressed – the mechanism is unknown, but likely related to the ketone production.
The bottom line is this. You can store energy in the form of sugar or fat. In the fasted starte – you can either burn sugar or fat for energy, but not both. If you are continually supplying your body with sugar, it will not burn fat.
Fasting provides a very quick way to start burning fat. It provides a solution to the two compartment problem. The reason why the Calorie pundits never understand why their model doesn’t work is because they have fundamentally mis-understood the problem as a single compartment.
You didn't include the pictures? You're completely compromising the scientific integrity of the argument.
They were such well drawn pictures, too. It was a real shame to lose their scientific contribution.0 -
"So, now you want to lose body fat. The first thing you need to do is clear out the sugar in your refrigerator."
That's exactly what I do. I clear sugar from my refrigerator and put it in my belly. Seems to be working so far.
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"So, now you want to lose body fat. The first thing you need to do is clear out the sugar in your refrigerator."
That's exactly what I do. I clear sugar from my refrigerator and put it in my belly. Seems to be working so far.
Who keeps their sugar in the refrigerator?
Oh wait. It's a metaphor... OHHHHH....
All this article is reminding me of is that I need to go check my ice cream stash in my basement freezer because I finished off a pint of Talenti the other night.
Anyways, in to learn how I wasn't successful using CI<CO even though 2 years in maintenance begs to differ.0 -
This is the second time I've read a "calorie counting can't possibly work for X science reason!" this morning. Which tells me one of two things. Either:
1) Somehow, without trying at all, everyone who simply did the CI>CO thing and met their weight goals stumbled into the perfect method of weight loss, which incidentally made it look like the CI>CO method works.
2) We as a culture have started to way overcomplicate weight loss, and are desperately scrambling to make it more complicated to explain outliers. (Because there are situations wherein CI>CO doesn't work, usually because of factors affecting the "CO" side that cannot be found by a simple online TDEE calculator.)
I'll let y'all vote on it.
I vote #3 (which is sort of an extension of 2)
Simply "eat less, move more" does not give shysters a way to monetize the general population's ignorance0 -
They are totally right. I haven't maintained a weight loss of over 50 pounds for over 15 years. I've just been sucking my gut in really hard. I have incredible core strength AND breath control.0
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If only my family ate from the refrigerator first, I would never have to through away spoiled food. Who has the time to completely refill their refrigerator 3 to 6 times a day? The problem with this study is the focus is on how often, while completely ignoring how full, you keep the refrigerator. I prefer to buy my groceries once a week because I know putting 7 apples in once a week or 1 apple a day for a week, is still 7 apples a week. Just because I can stuff 7 apples at a time in my fruit drawer, does not mean I always want or have to keep 7 in there. That is why how often you fill the refrigerator over the period of a few days is called a preference and not a requirement for food storage. Just as how often you fill your stomach over a few days is a preference and not a requirement for weight loss. What you can't do is stuff yourself full 3-6 times a day and expect weight loss.
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Wow. Some of the biggest crap I've seen and another reason why "common sense" thinking should burn in a fire when it comes to biology.0
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stevencloser wrote: »Wow. Some of the biggest crap I've seen and another reason why "common sense" thinking should burn in a fire when it comes to biology.
Wait, are you saying that a sink and a refrigerator *aren't* the best models for understanding how my body processes energy?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Wow. Some of the biggest crap I've seen and another reason why "common sense" thinking should burn in a fire when it comes to biology.
Wait, are you saying that a sink and a refrigerator *aren't* the best models for understanding how my body processes energy?
You should take a seat, this is going to be a bit of a shock...0
This discussion has been closed.
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