Muscle gain in deficit?

kshama2001

jmbmilholland wrote: »

May I be permitted to put myself out here as a case study? This is a topic that is causing me a great amount of anxiety.

I am 43. I have lost 25 lbs in the past half-year, with 15 more to go before I can theoretically fit into my old college clothes. I was losing around a lb a week, jut by cutting calories, walking, riding my bike, kayaking--with a bit of a plateau once cold weather set in, but this was remedied by hitting the elliptical machine at work in December. Over the past 6 months, I have floated around a particular weight for 3 weeks, then lost several lbs. in a "whoosh" effect in the 4th week, so my weight loss is opaque under the best of circumstances, but I know that my calorie counting is ballpark-accurate, and I've shifted to a much healthier diet. I hit a low of 144.6 in January.

At that point, I signed up to do a 6-week course of remote personal training with my nephew. I cobbled together a few dumbbells etc. at home and have been lifting progressively heavier weights over the past 6 weeks (I've gone from 15 lb weights for a single arm bent over row to 33 lb weights, for example; I've gone from suffering to hold a 20 second plank to almost 2 minutes; I'm lifting 5-10 lb heavier barbells across the board). I lift for an hour 4 days a week, also do a half-hour "body sculpting" class twice a week (core with weights) and do cardio a couple times a week, along with 10,000 to 15,000 steps and lots of stairs on most days.

I can feel myself becoming leaner, stronger, and more lithe. My old pants suddenly went from "a little too big" to "ridiculous" now that I've been lifting, and just today I had to dig out my old belts that I wore when I was a size 6 because my current belts no longer hold my too-big pants up (obviously I need to go shopping).

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

In December, I was at 29% body fat, so obviously I had a lot of fat to work with, and my macros are 40% protein, 40% fat, and 20% carbs (HA HA on that last one--I go over but it is all within a deficit). Of course, I need to get another body fat reading, and will within the next week, but under these circumstances isn't it plausible that enough muscle can be built/converted to offset weight loss from a deficit?

@senecarr the article you posted above linking to the Bayesian site was very encouraging.

I can see great results, my nephew was impressed with the visual progress in the 5 weeks since he last saw me, and I feel great, but I am beset with frustration, doubt and anxiety because the numbers are not coming off the scale. I have the flip side of the coin covered as well, with my despair that I will lose hard-won muscle mass if I go into a great deficit. Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated.

I'd focus on your pants rather than the scale. Congrats! And have you seen this? She's heaviest in the far right.

auddii

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

And to add, when I switch lifting programs, I usually see a stall on the scale for 4-6 weeks, and then a whoosh over the following several weeks.

French_Peasant

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

I was at my low from Jan 19 thru 22, so I should have had my "whoosh" well over a week ago. Since I've been constantly pushing myself to lift heavier, would that create longer water retention, or is that excuse only good for less than a month? I suspect you are right about pushing myself with the cardio--I would do a 500 calorie burn cardio workout at home and that has been replaced by lifting and a couple of times a week on the elliptical. So maybe I will nudge that up more. My HR Charge says I am burning 2000 to 2,500 cals a day and I know it is not picking up the weight or core workouts I do but...I don't rely on its totals as they just seem too good to be true. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some ideas.

@auddii I am halfway through week 6 of my program so maybe I will get my whoosh back soon...we'll see!

French_Peasant

kshama2001 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

May I be permitted to put myself out here as a case study? This is a topic that is causing me a great amount of anxiety.

I am 43. I have lost 25 lbs in the past half-year, with 15 more to go before I can theoretically fit into my old college clothes. I was losing around a lb a week, jut by cutting calories, walking, riding my bike, kayaking--with a bit of a plateau once cold weather set in, but this was remedied by hitting the elliptical machine at work in December. Over the past 6 months, I have floated around a particular weight for 3 weeks, then lost several lbs. in a "whoosh" effect in the 4th week, so my weight loss is opaque under the best of circumstances, but I know that my calorie counting is ballpark-accurate, and I've shifted to a much healthier diet. I hit a low of 144.6 in January.

At that point, I signed up to do a 6-week course of remote personal training with my nephew. I cobbled together a few dumbbells etc. at home and have been lifting progressively heavier weights over the past 6 weeks (I've gone from 15 lb weights for a single arm bent over row to 33 lb weights, for example; I've gone from suffering to hold a 20 second plank to almost 2 minutes; I'm lifting 5-10 lb heavier barbells across the board). I lift for an hour 4 days a week, also do a half-hour "body sculpting" class twice a week (core with weights) and do cardio a couple times a week, along with 10,000 to 15,000 steps and lots of stairs on most days.

I can feel myself becoming leaner, stronger, and more lithe. My old pants suddenly went from "a little too big" to "ridiculous" now that I've been lifting, and just today I had to dig out my old belts that I wore when I was a size 6 because my current belts no longer hold my too-big pants up (obviously I need to go shopping).

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

In December, I was at 29% body fat, so obviously I had a lot of fat to work with, and my macros are 40% protein, 40% fat, and 20% carbs (HA HA on that last one--I go over but it is all within a deficit). Of course, I need to get another body fat reading, and will within the next week, but under these circumstances isn't it plausible that enough muscle can be built/converted to offset weight loss from a deficit?

@senecarr the article you posted above linking to the Bayesian site was very encouraging.

I can see great results, my nephew was impressed with the visual progress in the 5 weeks since he last saw me, and I feel great, but I am beset with frustration, doubt and anxiety because the numbers are not coming off the scale. I have the flip side of the coin covered as well, with my despair that I will lose hard-won muscle mass if I go into a great deficit. Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated.

I'd focus on your pants rather than the scale. Congrats! And have you seen this? She's heaviest in the far right.

That is an AWESOME comparison! Thank you! I would post a picture of my pants (it's pretty hilarious, but they are my all-time favorite pair of twill trousers, so I still wear them) but it would probably make my husband wonder what the heck I am up to.

French_Peasant

jmbmilholland wrote: »

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

I was at my low from Jan 19 thru 22, so I should have had my "whoosh" well over a week ago. Since I've been constantly pushing myself to lift heavier, would that create longer water retention, or is that excuse only good for less than a month? I suspect you are right about pushing myself with the cardio--I would do a 500 calorie burn cardio workout at home and that has been replaced by lifting and a couple of times a week on the elliptical. So maybe I will nudge that up more. My HR Charge says I am burning 2000 to 2,500 cals a day and I know it is not picking up the weight or core workouts I do but...I don't rely on its totals as they just seem too good to be true. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some ideas.

@auddii I am halfway through week 6 of my program so maybe I will get my whoosh back soon...we'll see!

So, you guys were so helpful, I now have another question. I've finished my 6 week training course (plus an additional week redoing Week 1, just with much heavier weights). At the beginning of the course, my body fat % was 29.4%, and as of this morning it was 24.5%. I still haven't dropped any weight, even with trying to get more cardio back in, but that's okay as I can tell I am leaner and less jiggly. The initial measurement was at a CVS and confirmed on an Omron hand-held, and the final weight was just on the hand held, both times fasting overnight.

If I was 147 lbs at the time of both fat analyses, does that mean I've converted 7 lbs fat to muscle? (147 * .294 = 43 lb; 147*.245=36 lb; 43-36=7 lbs lost). Is 7 lbs. recomped over 7 weeks good, average, or slacker-level?

I've been trying to work as hard as I can, but since I'm training remotely, I am sure I am not working as hard as if someone were there watching me.

auddii

jmbmilholland wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

I was at my low from Jan 19 thru 22, so I should have had my "whoosh" well over a week ago. Since I've been constantly pushing myself to lift heavier, would that create longer water retention, or is that excuse only good for less than a month? I suspect you are right about pushing myself with the cardio--I would do a 500 calorie burn cardio workout at home and that has been replaced by lifting and a couple of times a week on the elliptical. So maybe I will nudge that up more. My HR Charge says I am burning 2000 to 2,500 cals a day and I know it is not picking up the weight or core workouts I do but...I don't rely on its totals as they just seem too good to be true. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some ideas.

@auddii I am halfway through week 6 of my program so maybe I will get my whoosh back soon...we'll see!

So, you guys were so helpful, I now have another question. I've finished my 6 week training course (plus an additional week redoing Week 1, just with much heavier weights). At the beginning of the course, my body fat % was 29.4%, and as of this morning it was 24.5%. I still haven't dropped any weight, even with trying to get more cardio back in, but that's okay as I can tell I am leaner and less jiggly. The initial measurement was at a CVS and confirmed on an Omron hand-held, and the final weight was just on the hand held, both times fasting overnight.

If I was 147 lbs at the time of both fat analyses, does that mean I've converted 7 lbs fat to muscle? (147 * .294 = 43 lb; 147*.245=36 lb; 43-36=7 lbs lost). Is 7 lbs. recomped over 7 weeks good, average, or slacker-level?

I've been trying to work as hard as I can, but since I'm training remotely, I am sure I am not working as hard as if someone were there watching me.

My guess is that you haven't converted so much as you are in fact losing fat and the scale just isn't reflecting that yet. As a newb, you could add muscle while in a deficit, but there's no way it's going to be a lb/week. Keep going, and for now ignore the scale. You're definitely seeing results, and over thinking the math of what is actually happening I don't think does you any help at all.

And congrats on your progress!!

CharlieBeansmomTracey

jmbmilholland wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

I was at my low from Jan 19 thru 22, so I should have had my "whoosh" well over a week ago. Since I've been constantly pushing myself to lift heavier, would that create longer water retention, or is that excuse only good for less than a month? I suspect you are right about pushing myself with the cardio--I would do a 500 calorie burn cardio workout at home and that has been replaced by lifting and a couple of times a week on the elliptical. So maybe I will nudge that up more. My HR Charge says I am burning 2000 to 2,500 cals a day and I know it is not picking up the weight or core workouts I do but...I don't rely on its totals as they just seem too good to be true. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some ideas.

@auddii I am halfway through week 6 of my program so maybe I will get my whoosh back soon...we'll see!

So, you guys were so helpful, I now have another question. I've finished my 6 week training course (plus an additional week redoing Week 1, just with much heavier weights). At the beginning of the course, my body fat % was 29.4%, and as of this morning it was 24.5%. I still haven't dropped any weight, even with trying to get more cardio back in, but that's okay as I can tell I am leaner and less jiggly. The initial measurement was at a CVS and confirmed on an Omron hand-held, and the final weight was just on the hand held, both times fasting overnight.

If I was 147 lbs at the time of both fat analyses, does that mean I've converted 7 lbs fat to muscle? (147 * .294 = 43 lb; 147*.245=36 lb; 43-36=7 lbs lost). Is 7 lbs. recomped over 7 weeks good, average, or slacker-level?

I've been trying to work as hard as I can, but since I'm training remotely, I am sure I am not working as hard as if someone were there watching me.

those hand held fat measuring devices are not accurat,only thing more accurate but still not 100% is a bod pod or a dexa scan . you cannot turn fat into muscle. it doesnt work that way.you can build muscle under the fat,you can burn the fat over the muscle to make your muscles show more but you cannot take fat and turn it into muscle. also for a woman to gain 1lb a muscle a week,I dont think thats possible. women gain muscle more slowly then men,even newbie gains I doubt would be that high.

ndj1979

jmbmilholland wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

juggernaut1974 wrote: »

jmbmilholland wrote: »

HOWEVER...I have not lost an ounce of weight, according to my scales. I've fluctuated up to 5 lbs above my January low, with no "week 4 whoosh" to be seen. I am eating a 500-800 cal deficit, which is tracked fairly accurately as shown by my previous weight loss. Visually, I see a huge difference, but then I read these forums and learn that old ladies can't build muscle in a short amount of time, especially old ladies in a deficit.

I would point out a couple things...together they may contribute toward part of what you're seeing.

1. RE: the bolded - what WAS a 500-800 daily deficit may not be quite so high any more now that you've lost 25 lbs (or ~15% of previous mass). Also, it's my experience that most people vastly overestimate the amount of calories burned in excess of normal daily activity from weight lifting. So if you've switched your exercise routine away from cardio toward weights, and are eating back exercise calories, it's possible you're cutting even further into your deficit. My "trial and error" experience was that I really only burned about 75-100 calories in excess of my daily activity setting (sedentary) from an hour of lifting (which makes sense, as at least a good third of the time, I'm resting in between sets)
2. You say you hit your low "in January" and then switched to more lifting...are we talking early January...or January 31? If closer to the latter, it's possible you're still seeing effects of extra water being retained to help with muscle reparation and/or natural short term (~3 weeks) fluctuations.

I was at my low from Jan 19 thru 22, so I should have had my "whoosh" well over a week ago. Since I've been constantly pushing myself to lift heavier, would that create longer water retention, or is that excuse only good for less than a month? I suspect you are right about pushing myself with the cardio--I would do a 500 calorie burn cardio workout at home and that has been replaced by lifting and a couple of times a week on the elliptical. So maybe I will nudge that up more. My HR Charge says I am burning 2000 to 2,500 cals a day and I know it is not picking up the weight or core workouts I do but...I don't rely on its totals as they just seem too good to be true. Thanks for taking the time to respond and give me some ideas.

@auddii I am halfway through week 6 of my program so maybe I will get my whoosh back soon...we'll see!

So, you guys were so helpful, I now have another question. I've finished my 6 week training course (plus an additional week redoing Week 1, just with much heavier weights). At the beginning of the course, my body fat % was 29.4%, and as of this morning it was 24.5%. I still haven't dropped any weight, even with trying to get more cardio back in, but that's okay as I can tell I am leaner and less jiggly. The initial measurement was at a CVS and confirmed on an Omron hand-held, and the final weight was just on the hand held, both times fasting overnight.

If I was 147 lbs at the time of both fat analyses, does that mean I've converted 7 lbs fat to muscle? (147 * .294 = 43 lb; 147*.245=36 lb; 43-36=7 lbs lost). Is 7 lbs. recomped over 7 weeks good, average, or slacker-level?

I've been trying to work as hard as I can, but since I'm training remotely, I am sure I am not working as hard as if someone were there watching me.

those hand held devices are wildly inaccurate ..

I would guess that you have put some good newbie gains and have lost some fat, but I don't think the percent drop is that steep ...

French_Peasant

Aw. I suspected as much. (sad trombone plays in the background) (shuffles away like Charlie Brown)

czuzak

AnabolicKyle wrote: »

lorib642 wrote: »

I have heard people say they aren't losing weight because they are gaining muscle and "muscle weighs more than fat".

Though it was brought up i would like to point out

if youre not losing weight but gaining muscle
-your weight would stay the same
-youre losing fat
-youre gaining muscle

This is called body recomp. youre at maintenance calories and your body is changing but not your weight is not.

Yep. This is happening to me right now. I've been using MFP for a month now trying to stick to a deficit diet. While I was losing about 1 lb per week, I still didn't feel happy with my progress. I started a lifting program and while my weight is no longer decreasing, I feel and am visibly stronger. The most immediate thing I noticed was my waist line slimming down. All of sudden, I'm not so picky about a number on a scale.

brittyn3

czuzak wrote: »

AnabolicKyle wrote: »

lorib642 wrote: »

I have heard people say they aren't losing weight because they are gaining muscle and "muscle weighs more than fat".

Though it was brought up i would like to point out

if youre not losing weight but gaining muscle
-your weight would stay the same
-youre losing fat
-youre gaining muscle

This is called body recomp. youre at maintenance calories and your body is changing but not your weight is not.

Yep. This is happening to me right now. I've been using MFP for a month now trying to stick to a deficit diet. While I was losing about 1 lb per week, I still didn't feel happy with my progress. I started a lifting program and while my weight is no longer decreasing, I feel and am visibly stronger. The most immediate thing I noticed was my waist line slimming down. All of sudden, I'm not so picky about a number on a scale.

This! I'm "dense" by nature. The scale is a sick joke for me. It's genetics, my mom had a lot of muscle - and I do too. I basically just gain fat over my muscle. Annoying, but I don't lose much strength, unless I'm a terrible human and skip the gym for like 4 months at a time. haha

I lost a bunch of weight, and gained only half back, but my scale reads the same as when I was at my heaviest - but I don't look the same. MUSCLE - it's a fantastic thing. But screw the scale!

senecarr

jmbmilholland wrote: »

Aw. I suspected as much. (sad trombone plays in the background) (shuffles away like Charlie Brown)

My own experience with the Omron's is that I had a DEXA scan on 6/6/15 that said 33.7% body fat, and an Omron on 6/13/15 say I was at 26%. Seeing as my weight was pretty close between those two days, I'm guessing the Omron was off. It is also worth mentioning that the way it would be off for a DEXA scan is going to vary by individual, and even sometimes things like time and hydration state differences for the same individual.
I once had the nurse doing an Omron tell me it must be wrong because my arm was too big for me to be at a high body fat percentage designation when it read 20%. I'm not sure how that works, but I certainly found it amusing.

Dvdgzz

I can't find it now but I recently read a new study showing muscle gain and a large amount of fat lost in trainees even though they were only eating 40% of the calories they needed to maintain.

I definitely recently gained back some lean mass despite a large calorie deficit because I am coming back from a layoff.