To those of you who REALLY understand TDEE vs NEAT

jacksonpt

I understand them, but am kinda thinking out loud here and just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I'm not comfortable with TDEE - 15%, and I'm tired of logging exercise and constantly having to balance out cals. I also hate the whole exercise more to eat more mentality - I want to eat to control my weight and exercise to get faster, stronger, etc. As such, I'm considering taking a slightly different approach to all this calories nonsense.

My NEAT is ~2300. Workout cals on top of that can pretty much run the gammut - a couple hundred when lifting or HIITing to a couple thousand for serious cardio session. I'm thinking about setting my daily calorie goal to = NEAT and letting my exercise create the deficit. So a rest day would basically be eating at maintenance, exercise days would be in deficit.

Most average workouts are somewhere in the 200-600 calorie range, so my typical deficit would be fairly moderate, but there would certainly be the occasional 1500 calorie deficit (assuming I stuck to my goal that day).

At 2300 cals, I'd be getting more than enough fat and protein (~70g fat and ~175g protein, both minimums), so I don't think nutrition would become an issue.

Thoughts?

BikerGirlElaine

Sounds fine to me. You seem to understand the concepts and if that how it is easiest and most logical for you to do things, then go for it.

:flowerforyou:

ItsCasey

How much weight are you trying to lose?

I think 2300 is a good number for you, and I think it would work perfectly if your workouts were all in the 200 to 600 range. Mine are in the 200 to 500 range (3X per week, not counting walking or mobility sessions), and I'm eating 50 to 100 calories above NEAT, losing half a pound per week.

But I'm going to be the hardass who says that if you have more than 1 of those 1500 calorie burns a week, you have to eat more to compensate for that. If you do that twice a week, that alone accounts for nearly a pound. I can understand why you don't want to account for exercise in your calories. That's why I started using TDEE. But I don't think you can just eat at NEAT every day and ignore the huge calorie burns if they're happening frequently (acknowledging that your "frequently" and mine may be two different things).

Basically, I'd take a look at it from a weekly deficit standpoint, and if you're going to be on pace to lose more than half a pound to a pound per week, you need more calories. I think having the energy to get faster and stronger is going to become an issue, otherwise.

tomcornhole

I understand them, but am kinda thinking out loud here and just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I'm not comfortable with TDEE - 15%, and I'm tired of logging exercise and constantly having to balance out cals. I also hate the whole exercise more to eat more mentality - I want to eat to control my weight and exercise to get faster, stronger, etc. As such, I'm considering taking a slightly different approach to all this calories nonsense.

My NEAT is ~2300. Workout cals on top of that can pretty much run the gammut - a couple hundred when lifting or HIITing to a couple thousand for serious cardio session. I'm thinking about setting my daily calorie goal to = NEAT and letting my exercise create the deficit. So a rest day would basically be eating at maintenance, exercise days would be in deficit.

Most average workouts are somewhere in the 200-600 calorie range, so my typical deficit would be fairly moderate, but there would certainly be the occasional 1500 calorie deficit (assuming I stuck to my goal that day).

At 2300 cals, I'd be getting more than enough fat and protein (~70g fat and ~175g protein, both minimums), so I don't think nutrition would become an issue.

Thoughts?

This is what I do.

jacksonpt

How much weight are you trying to lose?

I think 2300 is a good number for you, and I think it would work perfectly if your workouts were all in the 200 to 600 range. Mine are in the 200 to 500 range (3X per week, not counting walking or mobility sessions), and I'm eating 50 to 100 calories above NEAT, losing half a pound per week.

But I'm going to be the hardass who says that if you have more than 1 of those 1500 calorie burns a week, you have to eat more to compensate for that. If you do that twice a week, that alone accounts for nearly a pound. I can understand why you don't want to account for exercise in your calories. That's why I started using TDEE. But I don't think you can just eat at NEAT every day and ignore the huge calorie burns if they're happening frequently (acknowledging that your "frequently" and mine may be two different things).

Basically, I'd take a look at it from a weekly deficit standpoint, and if you're going to be on pace to lose more than half a pound to a pound per week, you need more calories. I think having the energy to get faster and stronger is going to become an issue, otherwise.

Ultimately I want to get down to 160lbs, which means a loss of roughly 10lbs.

Big workouts don't happen more than 1x per week, usually more like 1x in 10 days or so.

And I want you to be a hard *kitten*... I don't want to be coddled or told everything will be ok or that I'll do better tomorrow. I want to told how it is and I want ot be kicked in the *kitten* when I need/deserve it.

jonnythan

Sounds reasonable to aggressive to me, depending on your current goals.

cwolfman13

Makes sense...I do TDEE - 20% right now with my calorie burns basically averaged out over the week...so some days I have a bigger deficit than others...and then on Sundays (rest day) I'm actually overeating, and it works perfectly fine, but I could see this being a pretty viable way to go as well, especially if you log exercise. I never log my exercise here, so it's not biggie..but I could see if you were actively trying to track that, this could work without having to make mental adjustments for your calorie intake.

jacksonpt

on a side note... I'm not overly concerned about LBM loss. Lifting is part of my weekly routine and protein intake is high, so I should be ok there.

Energy levels on the other hand... that's a concern and has been a problem for me in recent weeks.

LishieFruit89

I'm intrigued by this so I'm following to learn =]

cwolfman13

on a side note... I'm not overly concerned about LBM loss. Lifting is part of my weekly routine and protein intake is high, so I should be ok there.

Energy levels on the other hand... that's a concern and has been a problem for me in recent weeks.

If you're having a low energy day, you could eat some of those calories back...working your way back towards NEAT maintenance...worst case scenario, you end up at your NEAT which would still give you a small loss in my estimation. I gotta say, it's hard for me diet wise when I'm training hard...when I don't eat, I don't kill my workouts...when I do eat, I just maintain and don't lose any weight. I actually never even noticed that aspect until I went to maintenance for a few months and just stated crushing it. Now, it's always a struggle to balance out my desire to lose a few more points in BF and crush my workouts....just thinking out-loud.

ItsCasey

How much weight are you trying to lose?

I think 2300 is a good number for you, and I think it would work perfectly if your workouts were all in the 200 to 600 range. Mine are in the 200 to 500 range (3X per week, not counting walking or mobility sessions), and I'm eating 50 to 100 calories above NEAT, losing half a pound per week.

But I'm going to be the hardass who says that if you have more than 1 of those 1500 calorie burns a week, you have to eat more to compensate for that. If you do that twice a week, that alone accounts for nearly a pound. I can understand why you don't want to account for exercise in your calories. That's why I started using TDEE. But I don't think you can just eat at NEAT every day and ignore the huge calorie burns if they're happening frequently (acknowledging that your "frequently" and mine may be two different things).

Basically, I'd take a look at it from a weekly deficit standpoint, and if you're going to be on pace to lose more than half a pound to a pound per week, you need more calories. I think having the energy to get faster and stronger is going to become an issue, otherwise.

Ultimately I want to get down to 160lbs, which means a loss of roughly 10lbs.

Big workouts don't happen more than 1x per week, usually more like 1x in 10 days or so.

And I want you to be a hard *kitten*... I don't want to be coddled or told everything will be ok or that I'll do better tomorrow. I want to told how it is and I want ot be kicked in the *kitten* when I need/deserve it.

Then I say go for it, and give it some time. I changed my macros a couple weeks ago at the suggestion of my strength coach, and even though my calories went down slightly, my weight went up nearly 4 to 5 lbs for a week (more carbs), and I was kind of a pain in the *kitten* about it. But things have stabilized, and I'm back on track. I can only assume that if you add calories, your weight may go up for a bit. If you drink enough water, you should be good to go.

EvgeniZyntx

Many people are on fixed cal without calculating specific daily TDEE - xx%. I have gone to a fixed cal method as I too was a bit tired of following excercise and the variability.

However - I've lost one of the incentives for cardio. Getting those numbers.
And I still guestimate an adjustment of about 50% for anything really high (6 hours hiking/biking, for example)

Look to http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818082-exercise-calories-again-wtf and that group for several people that follow a fixed TDEE (what you call NEAT).

cwolfman13

Belay my last statement about still having a small loss...math wasn't working right in my head. Worst case scenario on a low energy day, you'd just have a smaller deficit if you ate some of those calories back or be at your NEAT maintenance. You'll probably need the extra calories on your big workout days.

BeachIron

That sounds like a reasonable approach to me and one that I've used in the past.

myofibril

Sounds fine to me in terms of fat loss. Your workouts might suffer a bit but that is par for the course of being in an energy deficit. Many times fat loss and high levels of performance are conflicting goals which are hard to balance.

However just on a technical point: NEAT is non exercise activity thermogenesis and makes up part of your TDEE along with BMR, TEF as well as TEA (thermic effect of activity - in other words planned exercise)

The 2,300 cals figure is not your NEAT (that would be huge!) but rather your TDEE - TEA.

jacksonpt

on a side note... I'm not overly concerned about LBM loss. Lifting is part of my weekly routine and protein intake is high, so I should be ok there.

Energy levels on the other hand... that's a concern and has been a problem for me in recent weeks.

If you're having a low energy day, you could eat some of those calories back...working your way back towards NEAT maintenance...worst case scenario, you end up at your NEAT which would still give you a small loss in my estimation. I gotta say, it's hard for me diet wise when I'm training hard...when I don't eat, I don't kill my workouts...when I do eat, I just maintain and don't lose any weight. I actually never even noticed that aspect until I went to maintenance for a few months and just stated crushing it. Now, it's always a struggle to balance out my desire to lose a few more points in BF and crush my workouts....just thinking out-loud.

I've noticed the same thing.

jacksonpt

Sounds fine to me in terms of fat loss. Your workouts might suffer a bit but that is par for the course of being in an energy deficit. Many times fat loss and high levels of performance are conflicting goals which are hard to balance.

However just on a technical point: NEAT is non exercise activity thermogenesis and makes up part of your TDEE along with BMR, TEF as well as TEA (thermic effect of activity - in other words planned exercise)

The 2,300 cals figure is not your NEAT (that would be huge!) but rather your TDEE - TEA.

Yes, I know... I was oversimplifying. But thanks for clarifying, it might help others who read this.

tomcornhole

This is a great thread. Very informative. Thank you.

chunkydunk714

Is there a NEAT calculator somewhere? Tried googling it but couldn't find one.

jacksonpt

Is there a NEAT calculator somewhere? Tried googling it but couldn't find one.

That's what MFP calculates. Set your weight loss goal to 0lbs lost/gained (or however they word it), and the number it spits back is your NEAT. Or more specifically, your BMR + NEAT + TAF

chunkydunk714

Is there a NEAT calculator somewhere? Tried googling it but couldn't find one.

That's what MFP calculates. Set your weight loss goal to 0lbs lost/gained (or however they word it), and the number it spits back is your NEAT. Or more specifically, your BMR + NEAT + TAF

Okay, so pretty much I have to be on maintenance? Am I understanding correctly?

jacksonpt

If your weight loss goal is set to 0 AND you eat back your exercise cals, then yes... you've been at maintenance.

If you change the weight loss goal, then MFP will adjust the number so you are in a deficit to reach that goal.
If you aren't eating back exercise cals, then you are in a deficit.
If you did both (changed the weight loss goal AND aren't eating back exercise cals), then you're in a big deficit.

minizebu

The only way to know if this will really work out the way you hope for it to is to try it for a week, or two, or three and then reassess. It sounds perfectly reasonable. However, the only way to know how your energy level, loss rate, LBM maintenance will fare on this regimen is to give it a shot and see how you do. Try it and then report your triumph or travails later.

Edited to remove wise crack. I'm in a grumpy mood. Mea culpa.

ItsCasey

I don't think he was asking for permission. I'm pretty sure he was just bouncing thoughts off other people to get opinions on their reasonableness.

tomcornhole

I don't think he was asking for permission. I'm pretty sure he was just bouncing thoughts off other people to get opinions on their reasonableness.

Agree. Based on his join date, number of posts, level of fitness and profile info, he's got this. But it sure helps others (like me) to read through the ensuing discussion. One of the more helpful posts I've seen in a while.

cwolfman13

on a side note... I'm not overly concerned about LBM loss. Lifting is part of my weekly routine and protein intake is high, so I should be ok there.

Energy levels on the other hand... that's a concern and has been a problem for me in recent weeks.

If you're having a low energy day, you could eat some of those calories back...working your way back towards NEAT maintenance...worst case scenario, you end up at your NEAT which would still give you a small loss in my estimation. I gotta say, it's hard for me diet wise when I'm training hard...when I don't eat, I don't kill my workouts...when I do eat, I just maintain and don't lose any weight. I actually never even noticed that aspect until I went to maintenance for a few months and just stated crushing it. Now, it's always a struggle to balance out my desire to lose a few more points in BF and crush my workouts....just thinking out-loud.

I've noticed the same thing.

Let me know how it works for you...I'm curious.

heybales

That's exactly what I do. And I know from several measurements that my NEAT level outside exercise is indeed sedentary on MFP.

I'm at the point I need the loss as encouragement to do the exercise, if I do the exercise I tend to eat better to support that too, so it works out well.

And if the exercise is for a goal event even better.

But, I do limit myself to any workout only providing a 1000 cal deficit. So my long bike rides or runs do get some eat back, and I especially watch the carbs so that what I burned is made up for by the eating post workout prior to the next workout.

And I know those stats and figures from my VO2max test.

Usually studies show just letting exercise create the deficit doesn't work well, because people eat too much back. But that's because they weren't using MFP to log the eating side of the equation.

Oh, this does mean I log lawn mowing, ect, anything above a sedentary life. Not for any reason other than to easily see the deficit created.
You can view my Food Diary to see what I do in the Diary notes for easier review later.

michellekicks

Your estimated burn on a rest day may be more or less than you think. I'm just throwing this out there... I set mine to "Very Active" and it thinks I burn 2210 daily. I strapped on a Body Media Fit for 3 weeks and my lowest burn day on a rest day was more like 2400. My actual average TDEE over 3 weeks was 2850 and it ranged from 2400 - 3400. I even had a 3000 calorie day without a workout. I tracked my average burn from exercise over that same time and the daily average ended up being 340 or so... I take about 1-2 rest days a week, 1 long run/week, 2 mid length runs and 3 lifting sessions plus the occasional DVD for cross-training. Because it's so varied, I've decided to switch back to MFP's method of adding the exercise back in.

Try 2300 daily but you may need to go even higher. I ate at 2300 for a long time - basically since October 2012. I didn't lose any weight but my body composition has changed. I dropped down to 2100 daily without adding exercise, then did 2200 because I was starving, then back to 2300... then I did my Body Media experiment and ate at 2650 daily for 3 weeks. Didn't gain a pound.

Now I'm cutting at 2100 + exercise calories (avg 340 daily) so I'm actually eating more like 2440 daily and I seem to have started losing scale weight again. Weird, I know. I'm just slightly lighter than you but also a girl. I'm very active in general (mom to 5 kids) but I would think you need more fuel than I do just by virtue of being a man.

I'm only sharing my own experience because our exercise schedules are pretty similar it seems...

yarwell

That's what MFP calculates. Set your weight loss goal to 0lbs lost/gained (or however they word it), and the number it spits back is your NEAT. Or more specifically, your BMR + NEAT + TAF

Please don't call TDEE minus exercise "NEAT" - it isn't simplifying, it's just confusing and wrong.

Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) is the calories used moving around other than in exercise. It's a few hundred calories a day in most cases.

TDEE = BMR + NEAT + EAT + TEF

where EAT is Exercise Activity Thermogenesis and TEF is the Thermogenesis Effect of Food. BMR is usually the biggest, unless you're on Biggest Loser.

heybales

Forgot to mention, to keep the energy levels up, I have to really time the planned snacks and meals I'd eat anyway, with the exercise really well.

Like try to make the workout end right before I'd eat a meal or snack anyway. Otherwise usually end up getting too hungry, and by the time of the next meal or snack just famished and that meal is shot.

Of course as long as I don't eat the whole workout burn back, who cares. Actually, while training right now, I actually do eat back the whole lifting workout burn, and a tad more the next day, to get max benefit from the one lifting workout each week. Working fine there, as I've maintained and in fact increased some lifts despite a much harder cardio routine, sometimes the day before.

mustgetmuscles1

I have been debating on switching to this for a while now myself. I used the MFP method and it definitely works its just that non workout days are rough and I think a level daily intake would be better for me.

This post is just might help me make the change over.