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Upper limit on protein intake for health - Does it exist?
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.0 -
I agree. But at the same time, my question was also whether there is a protein intake at which it becomes dangerous (assuming calorie maintenance and fat/carb macros are not terribly low).lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.
The interesting thing is that despite the incredibly high protein intake, the member in that other thread appears to be doing somewhat fine with the other macros (though her fat intake is a little low).
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koinflipper wrote: »Body Builders typically limit carbs to 10-30% so are taking in a lot more protein and their goal is to bulk up muscle mass. Those of us losing weight, we would like to replace the fat with healthy muscle mass (not extreme) so higher protein intake is usually fine.
CATS go into kidney failure and are prescribed low protein diets because their kidneys cannot handle the load of higher protein. However, most of the time, the kidney failure started with not enough daily intake of water when owner feeds dry food to cat. Cats have lower drive to seek water. Sometimes I had to put broth in my cat's water to encourage her to drink enough.
All dialysis patients have extremely restricted protein diets because kidneys already damaged and unable to handle the load of much protein.
People with healthy kidneys who are doing reasonable exercise should be just fine with more protein. Just drink more water to be sure help kidneys handle the protein breakdown products.
Not sure what the dietary needs of obligate carnivores (cats) have to do with human protein needs, but you're mistaken about low protein diets for cats:
from www.catinfo.org/:Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.
It is very important to remember that not all proteins are created equal.
Proteins derived from animal tissues have a complete amino acid profile. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Think of them as pieces of a puzzle.) Plant-based proteins do not contain the full complement (puzzle pieces) of the critical amino acids required by an obligate carnivore. The quality and composition of a protein (are all of the puzzle pieces present?) is also referred to as its biological value.
Humans and dogs can take the pieces of the puzzle in the plant protein and, from those, make the missing pieces. Cats cannot do this. This is why humans and dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but cats cannot. (Note that I do not recommend vegetarian diets for dogs.)
Humans don't have the same dietary needs as cats, nor do we have the same digestive system/metabolism. We can survive and prosper on much less protein than an obligate carnivore and the protein needs of a cat can't be compared or extrapolated in any way with/to a human diet.0 -
It would be near impossible to set an upper limit due to the satiety level of protein alone especially with a liquid diet of 100% protein to avoid even the slightest influence from other macros.0
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koinflipper wrote: »Body Builders typically limit carbs to 10-30% so are taking in a lot more protein and their goal is to bulk up muscle mass. Those of us losing weight, we would like to replace the fat with healthy muscle mass (not extreme) so higher protein intake is usually fine.
CATS go into kidney failure and are prescribed low protein diets because their kidneys cannot handle the load of higher protein. However, most of the time, the kidney failure started with not enough daily intake of water when owner feeds dry food to cat. Cats have lower drive to seek water. Sometimes I had to put broth in my cat's water to encourage her to drink enough.
All dialysis patients have extremely restricted protein diets because kidneys already damaged and unable to handle the load of much protein.
People with healthy kidneys who are doing reasonable exercise should be just fine with more protein. Just drink more water to be sure help kidneys handle the protein breakdown products.
Not sure what the dietary needs of obligate carnivores (cats) have to do with human protein needs, but you're mistaken about low protein diets for cats:
from www.catinfo.org/:Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.
It is very important to remember that not all proteins are created equal.
Proteins derived from animal tissues have a complete amino acid profile. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Think of them as pieces of a puzzle.) Plant-based proteins do not contain the full complement (puzzle pieces) of the critical amino acids required by an obligate carnivore. The quality and composition of a protein (are all of the puzzle pieces present?) is also referred to as its biological value.
Humans and dogs can take the pieces of the puzzle in the plant protein and, from those, make the missing pieces. Cats cannot do this. This is why humans and dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but cats cannot. (Note that I do not recommend vegetarian diets for dogs.)
Humans don't have the same dietary needs as cats, nor do we have the same digestive system/metabolism. We can survive and prosper on much less protein than an obligate carnivore and the protein needs of a cat can't be compared or extrapolated in any way with/to a human diet.
So far all my experiments with feeding my cats whey protein in hopes of turning them into tigers confirms that cat and human nutrition is different.0 -
koinflipper wrote: »Body Builders typically limit carbs to 10-30% so are taking in a lot more protein and their goal is to bulk up muscle mass. Those of us losing weight, we would like to replace the fat with healthy muscle mass (not extreme) so higher protein intake is usually fine.
CATS go into kidney failure and are prescribed low protein diets because their kidneys cannot handle the load of higher protein. However, most of the time, the kidney failure started with not enough daily intake of water when owner feeds dry food to cat. Cats have lower drive to seek water. Sometimes I had to put broth in my cat's water to encourage her to drink enough.
All dialysis patients have extremely restricted protein diets because kidneys already damaged and unable to handle the load of much protein.
People with healthy kidneys who are doing reasonable exercise should be just fine with more protein. Just drink more water to be sure help kidneys handle the protein breakdown products.
Not sure what the dietary needs of obligate carnivores (cats) have to do with human protein needs, but you're mistaken about low protein diets for cats:
from www.catinfo.org/:Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.
It is very important to remember that not all proteins are created equal.
Proteins derived from animal tissues have a complete amino acid profile. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Think of them as pieces of a puzzle.) Plant-based proteins do not contain the full complement (puzzle pieces) of the critical amino acids required by an obligate carnivore. The quality and composition of a protein (are all of the puzzle pieces present?) is also referred to as its biological value.
Humans and dogs can take the pieces of the puzzle in the plant protein and, from those, make the missing pieces. Cats cannot do this. This is why humans and dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but cats cannot. (Note that I do not recommend vegetarian diets for dogs.)
Humans don't have the same dietary needs as cats, nor do we have the same digestive system/metabolism. We can survive and prosper on much less protein than an obligate carnivore and the protein needs of a cat can't be compared or extrapolated in any way with/to a human diet.
So far all my experiments with feeding my cats whey protein in hopes of turning them into tigers confirms that cat and human nutrition is different.
That didn't work for you?
You must have used body fortress. Should have used ON Gold Standard.0 -
koinflipper wrote: »Body Builders typically limit carbs to 10-30% so are taking in a lot more protein and their goal is to bulk up muscle mass. Those of us losing weight, we would like to replace the fat with healthy muscle mass (not extreme) so higher protein intake is usually fine.
CATS go into kidney failure and are prescribed low protein diets because their kidneys cannot handle the load of higher protein. However, most of the time, the kidney failure started with not enough daily intake of water when owner feeds dry food to cat. Cats have lower drive to seek water. Sometimes I had to put broth in my cat's water to encourage her to drink enough.
All dialysis patients have extremely restricted protein diets because kidneys already damaged and unable to handle the load of much protein.
People with healthy kidneys who are doing reasonable exercise should be just fine with more protein. Just drink more water to be sure help kidneys handle the protein breakdown products.
Not sure what the dietary needs of obligate carnivores (cats) have to do with human protein needs, but you're mistaken about low protein diets for cats:
from www.catinfo.org/:Cats are obligate (strict) carnivores and are very different from dogs in their nutritional needs. What does it mean to be an ‘obligate carnivore’? It means that your cat was built by Mother Nature to get her nutritional needs met by the consumption of a large amount of animal-based proteins (meat/organs) and derives much less nutritional support from plant-based proteins (grains/vegetables). It means that cats lack specific metabolic (enzymatic) pathways and cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently as animal proteins.
It is very important to remember that not all proteins are created equal.
Proteins derived from animal tissues have a complete amino acid profile. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Think of them as pieces of a puzzle.) Plant-based proteins do not contain the full complement (puzzle pieces) of the critical amino acids required by an obligate carnivore. The quality and composition of a protein (are all of the puzzle pieces present?) is also referred to as its biological value.
Humans and dogs can take the pieces of the puzzle in the plant protein and, from those, make the missing pieces. Cats cannot do this. This is why humans and dogs can live on a vegetarian diet but cats cannot. (Note that I do not recommend vegetarian diets for dogs.)
Humans don't have the same dietary needs as cats, nor do we have the same digestive system/metabolism. We can survive and prosper on much less protein than an obligate carnivore and the protein needs of a cat can't be compared or extrapolated in any way with/to a human diet.
After they have kidney disease most vets prescribe a low protein diet for cats. From the research I've done, it appears they're basically taking the lead from humans with kidney disease - which may or may not be the best way to go. Lately there are vets bucking the trend and recommending very high protein diets with very high quality protein (low ash content) instead. Don't know if there's been any decent study done comparing the two.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree. But at the same time, my question was also whether there is a protein intake at which it becomes dangerous (assuming calorie maintenance and fat/carb macros are not terribly low).lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.
The interesting thing is that despite the incredibly high protein intake, the member in that other thread appears to be doing somewhat fine with the other macros (though her fat intake is a little low).
Just like water, I'm sure there's a level that is toxic. But throwing out random numbers and then complaining that there aren't studies looking at intakes that high seems rather ridiculous. And the OP of the other thread is incredibly light, so the gross amount of protein she was eating was not that high. I doubt that her kidneys are unable to process 200g of protein a day.0 -
geekyjock76 wrote: »It would be near impossible to set an upper limit due to the satiety level of protein alone especially with a liquid diet of 100% protein to avoid even the slightest influence from other macros.
But that would be unhealthy because you wouldn't be getting your essential fatty acids. So, whether or not there is a gram/lb upper limit, 100% is certainly above the percentage limit for good health.0 -
I understand that. But if that intake level (as a percentage of bodyweight) has not been studied, how can we be sure that it's not dangerous? Multiple people have suggested that there's no danger in doing that, but is that not extreme enough that we wouldn't know for sure?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree. But at the same time, my question was also whether there is a protein intake at which it becomes dangerous (assuming calorie maintenance and fat/carb macros are not terribly low).lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.
The interesting thing is that despite the incredibly high protein intake, the member in that other thread appears to be doing somewhat fine with the other macros (though her fat intake is a little low).
Just like water, I'm sure there's a level that is toxic. But throwing out random numbers and then complaining that there aren't studies looking at intakes that high seems rather ridiculous. And the OP of the other thread is incredibly light, so the gross amount of protein she was eating was not that high. I doubt that her kidneys are unable to process 200g of protein a day.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
I understand that. But if that intake level (as a percentage of bodyweight) has not been studied, how can we be sure that it's not dangerous? Multiple people have suggested that there's no danger in doing that, but is that not extreme enough that we wouldn't know for sure?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree. But at the same time, my question was also whether there is a protein intake at which it becomes dangerous (assuming calorie maintenance and fat/carb macros are not terribly low).lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.
The interesting thing is that despite the incredibly high protein intake, the member in that other thread appears to be doing somewhat fine with the other macros (though her fat intake is a little low).
Just like water, I'm sure there's a level that is toxic. But throwing out random numbers and then complaining that there aren't studies looking at intakes that high seems rather ridiculous. And the OP of the other thread is incredibly light, so the gross amount of protein she was eating was not that high. I doubt that her kidneys are unable to process 200g of protein a day.
Considering there are no studied benefits, it is the most costly macronutrient on a per calorie basis, rabbit starvation would tend to indicate people don't have the hepatic capacity to utilize more than 300g per day even as energy let alone building, why would anyone be looking to consume ultra high levels?0 -
I agree, good point.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I understand that. But if that intake level (as a percentage of bodyweight) has not been studied, how can we be sure that it's not dangerous? Multiple people have suggested that there's no danger in doing that, but is that not extreme enough that we wouldn't know for sure?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I agree. But at the same time, my question was also whether there is a protein intake at which it becomes dangerous (assuming calorie maintenance and fat/carb macros are not terribly low).lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But this goes back to my point in the OP "most studies on protein intakes aren't using intakes that high (or for very long)". Even the study that investigated an intake of 2.8g/kg is only a little over half of what's being discussed here (5.5g/kg, which is the same as 2.5g/lb). And that study was only carried out over 7 days.Carlos_421 wrote: »
That's an appropriate thing to bring up in the other thread, perhaps.
This thread doesn't have anything to do with 5.5g/kg, as that amount is never recommended or benefits claimed from it, to my knowledge.
The Institute of Medicine has not set an upper limit, but generally a number so high as 5.5 g/kg would be precluded by the need to get in enough from other foods/macros.
The interesting thing is that despite the incredibly high protein intake, the member in that other thread appears to be doing somewhat fine with the other macros (though her fat intake is a little low).
Just like water, I'm sure there's a level that is toxic. But throwing out random numbers and then complaining that there aren't studies looking at intakes that high seems rather ridiculous. And the OP of the other thread is incredibly light, so the gross amount of protein she was eating was not that high. I doubt that her kidneys are unable to process 200g of protein a day.
Considering there are no studied benefits, it is the most costly macronutrient on a per calorie basis, rabbit starvation would tend to indicate people don't have the hepatic capacity to utilize more than 300g per day even as energy let alone building, why would anyone be looking to consume ultra high levels?
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