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What is clean eating?
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bruhaha007 wrote: »Try to avoid the inside aisles of the grocery store on shop on the edges. That is where the "cleaner" food hangs out so I am told.
This is a complete myth for any supermarket I use in the UK. Is this perimeter shopping thing just a US thing?
It's not even a thing here.
Our stores have the produce in a front corner, usually sided by the baked goods then proceeding around the perimeter to lunch meats/sausages to dairy to frozen pizzas to soda then down the main drive aisle (separating grocery from pet supplies, sporting goods and apparel) for all the sale items like the new pop tart flavor, townhouse crackers, cookies and chocolates.0 -
Who knows. Some bro at the gym just told me that eating McDonalds is clean eating.0
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Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How do you make lard at home in your kitchen?
it is extremely easy. Render pork fat on low heat. Strain out the Cracklins/lardons. Let the remaining liquid fat solidify.
It's just about the same process as clarifying butter.
Huh, neat. Not like I'd ever make some, but still neat.
Next question: Wine was mentioned. You need quite a bit of equipment to make wine that is not found in your average kitchen or needs to be made DIY. What differentiates that equipment needed for equipment to make anything else that you'd not usually make yourself?
For example there's kits to make your own candy for sale, with all ingredients you need. Does that make candy clean?
Also you don't seem to understand my point about 'clean'. The question is if you could replicate all the ingredients shown on a good item and make it at home. If the ingredients for a loaf of bread are flour, yeast, salt then yes, you could. If there are 10+ ingredients most of which you have no idea what they are then no, you couldn't. It's not a complicated idea but you seem to be unable to grasp it.
Why is yeast clean? Can't really make it at home, S. cerevisiae doesn't really remain that pure if you do so, generally must be store bought.
Is blue cheese clean?
Cazu marzu?
Yoghurt? Only if you make it?
I Make sourdough bread so I have a 'mother'. She's a ball of pulsating life. But once again, I never said this was about not buying things from a store. It's about paying attention to what's in what you're buying from a store.
What kinds of things might be in food from the store that I should avoid?
Whatever you choose.
Then I choose.......coconut......and mint.
ETA but seriously? There's no guidance for what should be avoided in processed foods? Just whatever I want to choose? Is this clean eating agnosticism?0 -
arditarose wrote: »Who knows. Some bro at the gym just told me that eating McDonalds is clean eating.
Unless they drop your fries then put em back in the cup.0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How do you make lard at home in your kitchen?
it is extremely easy. Render pork fat on low heat. Strain out the Cracklins/lardons. Let the remaining liquid fat solidify.
It's just about the same process as clarifying butter.
Huh, neat. Not like I'd ever make some, but still neat.
Next question: Wine was mentioned. You need quite a bit of equipment to make wine that is not found in your average kitchen or needs to be made DIY. What differentiates that equipment needed for equipment to make anything else that you'd not usually make yourself?
For example there's kits to make your own candy for sale, with all ingredients you need. Does that make candy clean?
Also you don't seem to understand my point about 'clean'. The question is if you could replicate all the ingredients shown on a good item and make it at home. If the ingredients for a loaf of bread are flour, yeast, salt then yes, you could. If there are 10+ ingredients most of which you have no idea what they are then no, you couldn't. It's not a complicated idea but you seem to be unable to grasp it.
You arbitrarily choose what the ingredients are you don't like. It's, to be quite frank, dumb.
Also you need at the very least an airtight container with a way to release carbon dioxide for proper alcoholic fermentation. I don't know about you, but I don't have such a thing just lying around my apartment, I'd have to buy one or make one first.
I don't have a coffee mill at home -> coffee is not clean?
Same with flour, and getting your own yeast.
No, that's dumb. I can just buy a coffee mill and make my own coffee, no problem.
But I can also just get everything that's in the 10+ ingredients bread if I want to, it's not made in some secret government research lab unavailable for the public, or get other things that have the same purpose, as you should be able to grasp that they don't throw in ingredients just for fun, they serve a purpose.
There is absolutely no sense in dividing ingredients like this.0 -
BTW. my cheapest of the cheap, white toast presliced, noname brand white bread made to last until the end of a nuclear winter probably contains exactly 1 ingredient that I would have to look for a bit to get: sodium acetate.0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How do you make lard at home in your kitchen?
it is extremely easy. Render pork fat on low heat. Strain out the Cracklins/lardons. Let the remaining liquid fat solidify.
It's just about the same process as clarifying butter.
Huh, neat. Not like I'd ever make some, but still neat.
Next question: Wine was mentioned. You need quite a bit of equipment to make wine that is not found in your average kitchen or needs to be made DIY. What differentiates that equipment needed for equipment to make anything else that you'd not usually make yourself?
For example there's kits to make your own candy for sale, with all ingredients you need. Does that make candy clean?
Also you don't seem to understand my point about 'clean'. The question is if you could replicate all the ingredients shown on a good item and make it at home. If the ingredients for a loaf of bread are flour, yeast, salt then yes, you could. If there are 10+ ingredients most of which you have no idea what they are then no, you couldn't. It's not a complicated idea but you seem to be unable to grasp it.
Why is yeast clean? Can't really make it at home, S. cerevisiae doesn't really remain that pure if you do so, generally must be store bought.
Is blue cheese clean?
Cazu marzu?
Yoghurt? Only if you make it?
Well, you see men aren't allowed to make those things, but they're clean for women...0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »
Banter and rebuttal is fine. But I wonder what you were looking for, in the end? Obviously it's useful to the people who use it. As I said, is 'healthy' no longer a useful word because different people have different idea on what 'healthy eating' means? Shall we all decide to ban certain words from the English language because their meaning is fluid?diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I don't know why people argue about this so much on this board. Everywhere else I post agrees that clean eating is only eating foods you could grow/prepare yourself. ypu don't have to do it yourself, you can buy them,but they can't require a laboratory or ingredients you can't buy in a grocery store. So butter is clean (because you could get milk and churn it yourself if you had the time) but margarine isn't because you couldn't make it in your kitchen. Likewise peanut butter made from peanuts and salt is clean. Protein powder isn't. It's pretty obvious really
Everyone in this *thread* doesn't agree with your definition. We've got people arguing that ground foods (like polenta and peanut butter and ground beef) aren't clean. And I've seen people argue that dairy isn't clean.
Your definitions may be obvious to you, but they aren't universal. Plenty of those who think they are eating clean disagree with you.
Vegans don't consider butter "clean".
Paleo dieters don't consider peanuts "clean".
Whelp. There goes another arbitrary definition of "clean eating" out the window.
No vegans don't consider butter vegan. And paleo eaters don't consider peanuts paleo. That's an additional dietary restriction.
OP I see your point but as I said the pointless arguments about clean only seem to happen on this board because people seem to take it personally that some people don't want to eat artificial ingredients. Everywhere else I post that is the standard.
And I think that attributing it to "taking it personally" or personal offense ignores the broader point. If two clean eaters in this very thread can't agree, I don't think that you can say that the argument is solely caused by those who aren't clean eaters or that it's pointless. I've laid out my point and my reasoning for this thread several times upthread.
Although, I do tend to take it personally when clean eaters tell me, for instance, that I'll get cancer for eating the way I do (though they hardly ever know the details of my diet or health history). But that's not on topic for this thread.
But it's just semantics. It's the same if you asked two people to define a 'healthy' diet. Or 'beautiful'. There are always going to be different definitions of a word. But the OP asked what is clean and I told her the standards definition across the other boards I frequent.
Also to whoever asked about wine, you can make wine yourself with enough grapes and time. But you could never make canola oil in your kitchen.
I am the OP. I did ask what clean eating is. I also asked if it was a useful descriptor at the end of the post. And I added a disclaimer that this would be a post where replies would likely have some amount of banter and rebuttal.
It's presented as a judgment -- the word itself demonstrates that -- but there are no external standards to allow us to discuss the meaning of "clean" beyond "well, I say so."
With healthy, we can discuss what is a healthful diet, different studies, how certain choices relate to certain goals or outcomes, etc. Sure, we will never be able to agree 100% (any more than we can agree on whether a particular book is great or not) but there are specific things we can look to that allow for a reasoned discussion or argument as to why, in my view, a diet without vegetables is typically not a healthy diet. (And with the book example I'd point to aspects of the writing beyond "I just really enjoyed it!" or "I thought it was dumb!")
With clean, we have two different primary definitions in this thread -- yours (which for the record kind of appeals to me and is more consistent with how I like to eat, although I am not perfect still) and Need2's which would make beef I grind myself at home not clean, because it's no longer in a natural form.
I mean, if she thinks that's so, she does, and there's no basis to argue, but I also don't see how the term has any general applicability or clarity, then, such that it is useful at all. I don't see why killing an animal and skinning it and processing it into specific cuts = natural, but chopping it up beyond that = not. I don't see why grinding wheat and corn (as certain ancestors of mine did in the middle of nowhere Iowa in the 1830s, as they had a mill) = not natural, but corn itself, a crop that has been changed immensely from how it started out (like so many others) and needs help to reproduce = natural. It's impossible to discuss as we would health principles relating to nutrition. It's just kind of "well, this feels natural and this does not."
I kind of get it because I used to be obsessive about "eating natural" to the point of refusing to buy dried pasta or canned tomatoes (I'd buy off-season tasteless tomatoes and make pasta from flour, though) and flirting with the idea of trying a locovore challenge (back then the idea of giving up coffee and wine was too much, and local wine is not acceptable). But it seems just mystical or about feel vs. anything concrete or related to health.
Well yes, Need2 has her own definition and I don't really see her logic but if it helps her eat and feel better then there's no point arguing it further.
But it seems we agree on many things, just not the term. it may be a value judgement but life is full of those. Personally I am more disturbed by the many threads on mfp of 'I can eat what I like within my calories' or discussing various junk foods as if eating them was some kind of prize or achievement.
I don't see this. I see lots of people being told that they should eat a healthy diet of mostly nutrient dense foods and adequate macros and micros but that they can include within that foods they particularly love that might be higher cal/lower nutrient in appropriate portions or on occasion. I expect I've made such posts myself. And I don't do it to discourage people who have decided to give up something or other (I often post about how I have dropped foods for a time for my own reasons), but because I think a lot of people assume that to lose weight they have to eat a special "diet" diet that is all about low cals or self-punishment and must look virtuous and dull -- the number of people I see eating only chicken breast and rice cakes or diet frozen meals or the like (often not with a good variety of vegetables) is sad, as I doubt they enjoy the meals (I don't comment unless invited to, though). Similarly, people post about only eating fruits and veg, assuming that's a good diet. My frustration with clean eating (usually defined as "no processed food" here, but that means weird things to people) is that it's just another manner of eating that seems to distract from actually understanding nutrition (Need2 may have a definition of clean eating I don't understand, but she doesn't say it's the same as eating healthy and she does understand nutrition). IMO, if you have some reason of your own to eat "clean" under some individual definition, I don't care (although I hate the term). I eat according to my own principles, which means making things from scratch at home, sourcing from local farms when possible, not eating ultra processed stuff (but then I'm a total hypocrite since I get into phases where I buy lunch all the time, although from places that meet my standards), eating lots of veg, etc. But what I don't do is confuse the fact that I would never, ever buy jarred pasta sauce and prefer to make my own salad dressing and don't buy supermarket bread with a claim that doing those things is healthier or has a thing to do with weight loss. I despise American cheese product and love trying new European cheeses or local American varieties, but I don't pretend that snobby cheeses are any better for the waistline. They just taste better. In fact, the best cheese for me for weight loss is my supermarket feta, since it has a strong taste, is low cal, and is easily available and inexpensive.
I do think there's fun with people talking about how they still enjoy ice cream or pizza (which can be made at home) or the like, or even Oreos, although I haven't yet read that thread, but I don't see what that has to do with clean eating or whether it helps with a diet. Under your definition of clean eating, if I'm understanding, I can made a strawberry rhubarb pie (which another MFP clean eater told me was "processed junk" and inherently too sweet although he never tasted my pie, obviously) or a homemade cookie or cupcake and that's fine, but those foods are as calorific (and IMO harder to resist) as any store-bought sweet.
I guess I'm partially skeptical of the clean eating craze because I managed to gain plenty of weight when I was much more into a "natural" approach to eating.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »
Banter and rebuttal is fine. But I wonder what you were looking for, in the end? Obviously it's useful to the people who use it. As I said, is 'healthy' no longer a useful word because different people have different idea on what 'healthy eating' means? Shall we all decide to ban certain words from the English language because their meaning is fluid?diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I don't know why people argue about this so much on this board. Everywhere else I post agrees that clean eating is only eating foods you could grow/prepare yourself. ypu don't have to do it yourself, you can buy them,but they can't require a laboratory or ingredients you can't buy in a grocery store. So butter is clean (because you could get milk and churn it yourself if you had the time) but margarine isn't because you couldn't make it in your kitchen. Likewise peanut butter made from peanuts and salt is clean. Protein powder isn't. It's pretty obvious really
Everyone in this *thread* doesn't agree with your definition. We've got people arguing that ground foods (like polenta and peanut butter and ground beef) aren't clean. And I've seen people argue that dairy isn't clean.
Your definitions may be obvious to you, but they aren't universal. Plenty of those who think they are eating clean disagree with you.
Vegans don't consider butter "clean".
Paleo dieters don't consider peanuts "clean".
Whelp. There goes another arbitrary definition of "clean eating" out the window.
No vegans don't consider butter vegan. And paleo eaters don't consider peanuts paleo. That's an additional dietary restriction.
OP I see your point but as I said the pointless arguments about clean only seem to happen on this board because people seem to take it personally that some people don't want to eat artificial ingredients. Everywhere else I post that is the standard.
And I think that attributing it to "taking it personally" or personal offense ignores the broader point. If two clean eaters in this very thread can't agree, I don't think that you can say that the argument is solely caused by those who aren't clean eaters or that it's pointless. I've laid out my point and my reasoning for this thread several times upthread.
Although, I do tend to take it personally when clean eaters tell me, for instance, that I'll get cancer for eating the way I do (though they hardly ever know the details of my diet or health history). But that's not on topic for this thread.
But it's just semantics. It's the same if you asked two people to define a 'healthy' diet. Or 'beautiful'. There are always going to be different definitions of a word. But the OP asked what is clean and I told her the standards definition across the other boards I frequent.
Also to whoever asked about wine, you can make wine yourself with enough grapes and time. But you could never make canola oil in your kitchen.
I am the OP. I did ask what clean eating is. I also asked if it was a useful descriptor at the end of the post. And I added a disclaimer that this would be a post where replies would likely have some amount of banter and rebuttal.
It's presented as a judgment -- the word itself demonstrates that -- but there are no external standards to allow us to discuss the meaning of "clean" beyond "well, I say so."
With healthy, we can discuss what is a healthful diet, different studies, how certain choices relate to certain goals or outcomes, etc. Sure, we will never be able to agree 100% (any more than we can agree on whether a particular book is great or not) but there are specific things we can look to that allow for a reasoned discussion or argument as to why, in my view, a diet without vegetables is typically not a healthy diet. (And with the book example I'd point to aspects of the writing beyond "I just really enjoyed it!" or "I thought it was dumb!")
With clean, we have two different primary definitions in this thread -- yours (which for the record kind of appeals to me and is more consistent with how I like to eat, although I am not perfect still) and Need2's which would make beef I grind myself at home not clean, because it's no longer in a natural form.
I mean, if she thinks that's so, she does, and there's no basis to argue, but I also don't see how the term has any general applicability or clarity, then, such that it is useful at all. I don't see why killing an animal and skinning it and processing it into specific cuts = natural, but chopping it up beyond that = not. I don't see why grinding wheat and corn (as certain ancestors of mine did in the middle of nowhere Iowa in the 1830s, as they had a mill) = not natural, but corn itself, a crop that has been changed immensely from how it started out (like so many others) and needs help to reproduce = natural. It's impossible to discuss as we would health principles relating to nutrition. It's just kind of "well, this feels natural and this does not."
I kind of get it because I used to be obsessive about "eating natural" to the point of refusing to buy dried pasta or canned tomatoes (I'd buy off-season tasteless tomatoes and make pasta from flour, though) and flirting with the idea of trying a locovore challenge (back then the idea of giving up coffee and wine was too much, and local wine is not acceptable). But it seems just mystical or about feel vs. anything concrete or related to health.
Well yes, Need2 has her own definition and I don't really see her logic but if it helps her eat and feel better then there's no point arguing it further.
But it seems we agree on many things, just not the term. it may be a value judgement but life is full of those. Personally I am more disturbed by the many threads on mfp of 'I can eat what I like within my calories' or discussing various junk foods as if eating them was some kind of prize or achievement.
I don't see this. I see lots of people being told that they should eat a healthy diet of mostly nutrient dense foods and adequate macros and micros but that they can include within that foods they particularly love that might be higher cal/lower nutrient in appropriate portions or on occasion. I expect I've made such posts myself. And I don't do it to discourage people who have decided to give up something or other (I often post about how I have dropped foods for a time for my own reasons), but because I think a lot of people assume that to lose weight they have to eat a special "diet" diet that is all about low cals or self-punishment and must look virtuous and dull -- the number of people I see eating only chicken breast and rice cakes or diet frozen meals or the like (often not with a good variety of vegetables) is sad, as I doubt they enjoy the meals (I don't comment unless invited to, though). Similarly, people post about only eating fruits and veg, assuming that's a good diet. My frustration with clean eating (usually defined as "no processed food" here, but that means weird things to people) is that it's just another manner of eating that seems to distract from actually understanding nutrition (Need2 may have a definition of clean eating I don't understand, but she doesn't say it's the same as eating healthy and she does understand nutrition). IMO, if you have some reason of your own to eat "clean" under some individual definition, I don't care (although I hate the term). I eat according to my own principles, which means making things from scratch at home, sourcing from local farms when possible, not eating ultra processed stuff (but then I'm a total hypocrite since I get into phases where I buy lunch all the time, although from places that meet my standards), eating lots of veg, etc. But what I don't do is confuse the fact that I would never, ever buy jarred pasta sauce and prefer to make my own salad dressing and don't buy supermarket bread with a claim that doing those things is healthier or has a thing to do with weight loss. I despise American cheese product and love trying new European cheeses or local American varieties, but I don't pretend that snobby cheeses are any better for the waistline. They just taste better. In fact, the best cheese for me for weight loss is my supermarket feta, since it has a strong taste, is low cal, and is easily available and inexpensive.
I do think there's fun with people talking about how they still enjoy ice cream or pizza (which can be made at home) or the like, or even Oreos, although I haven't yet read that thread, but I don't see what that has to do with clean eating or whether it helps with a diet. Under your definition of clean eating, if I'm understanding, I can made a strawberry rhubarb pie (which another MFP clean eater told me was "processed junk" and inherently too sweet although he never tasted my pie, obviously) or a homemade cookie or cupcake and that's fine, but those foods are as calorific (and IMO harder to resist) as any store-bought sweet.
I guess I'm partially skeptical of the clean eating craze because I managed to gain plenty of weight when I was much more into a "natural" approach to eating.
I think it's interesting because we were asked to give a definition of clean eating. I gave one. I didn't say that I followed it or what people should eat. I simply said that people should pay more attention to the food that they eat and where it comes from. Ultimately someone eating 'clean' (regardless of their personal definition) will probably pay more attention to the additives in their foods and come to their own conclusions about what they want to ingest. Personally I think knowledge is power so 'I want to eat clean' is not a terrible statement and doesn't deserve the pariah status it gets on these boards.
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Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »
Banter and rebuttal is fine. But I wonder what you were looking for, in the end? Obviously it's useful to the people who use it. As I said, is 'healthy' no longer a useful word because different people have different idea on what 'healthy eating' means? Shall we all decide to ban certain words from the English language because their meaning is fluid?diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I don't know why people argue about this so much on this board. Everywhere else I post agrees that clean eating is only eating foods you could grow/prepare yourself. ypu don't have to do it yourself, you can buy them,but they can't require a laboratory or ingredients you can't buy in a grocery store. So butter is clean (because you could get milk and churn it yourself if you had the time) but margarine isn't because you couldn't make it in your kitchen. Likewise peanut butter made from peanuts and salt is clean. Protein powder isn't. It's pretty obvious really
Everyone in this *thread* doesn't agree with your definition. We've got people arguing that ground foods (like polenta and peanut butter and ground beef) aren't clean. And I've seen people argue that dairy isn't clean.
Your definitions may be obvious to you, but they aren't universal. Plenty of those who think they are eating clean disagree with you.
Vegans don't consider butter "clean".
Paleo dieters don't consider peanuts "clean".
Whelp. There goes another arbitrary definition of "clean eating" out the window.
No vegans don't consider butter vegan. And paleo eaters don't consider peanuts paleo. That's an additional dietary restriction.
OP I see your point but as I said the pointless arguments about clean only seem to happen on this board because people seem to take it personally that some people don't want to eat artificial ingredients. Everywhere else I post that is the standard.
And I think that attributing it to "taking it personally" or personal offense ignores the broader point. If two clean eaters in this very thread can't agree, I don't think that you can say that the argument is solely caused by those who aren't clean eaters or that it's pointless. I've laid out my point and my reasoning for this thread several times upthread.
Although, I do tend to take it personally when clean eaters tell me, for instance, that I'll get cancer for eating the way I do (though they hardly ever know the details of my diet or health history). But that's not on topic for this thread.
But it's just semantics. It's the same if you asked two people to define a 'healthy' diet. Or 'beautiful'. There are always going to be different definitions of a word. But the OP asked what is clean and I told her the standards definition across the other boards I frequent.
Also to whoever asked about wine, you can make wine yourself with enough grapes and time. But you could never make canola oil in your kitchen.
I am the OP. I did ask what clean eating is. I also asked if it was a useful descriptor at the end of the post. And I added a disclaimer that this would be a post where replies would likely have some amount of banter and rebuttal.
It's presented as a judgment -- the word itself demonstrates that -- but there are no external standards to allow us to discuss the meaning of "clean" beyond "well, I say so."
With healthy, we can discuss what is a healthful diet, different studies, how certain choices relate to certain goals or outcomes, etc. Sure, we will never be able to agree 100% (any more than we can agree on whether a particular book is great or not) but there are specific things we can look to that allow for a reasoned discussion or argument as to why, in my view, a diet without vegetables is typically not a healthy diet. (And with the book example I'd point to aspects of the writing beyond "I just really enjoyed it!" or "I thought it was dumb!")
With clean, we have two different primary definitions in this thread -- yours (which for the record kind of appeals to me and is more consistent with how I like to eat, although I am not perfect still) and Need2's which would make beef I grind myself at home not clean, because it's no longer in a natural form.
I mean, if she thinks that's so, she does, and there's no basis to argue, but I also don't see how the term has any general applicability or clarity, then, such that it is useful at all. I don't see why killing an animal and skinning it and processing it into specific cuts = natural, but chopping it up beyond that = not. I don't see why grinding wheat and corn (as certain ancestors of mine did in the middle of nowhere Iowa in the 1830s, as they had a mill) = not natural, but corn itself, a crop that has been changed immensely from how it started out (like so many others) and needs help to reproduce = natural. It's impossible to discuss as we would health principles relating to nutrition. It's just kind of "well, this feels natural and this does not."
I kind of get it because I used to be obsessive about "eating natural" to the point of refusing to buy dried pasta or canned tomatoes (I'd buy off-season tasteless tomatoes and make pasta from flour, though) and flirting with the idea of trying a locovore challenge (back then the idea of giving up coffee and wine was too much, and local wine is not acceptable). But it seems just mystical or about feel vs. anything concrete or related to health.
Well yes, Need2 has her own definition and I don't really see her logic but if it helps her eat and feel better then there's no point arguing it further.
But it seems we agree on many things, just not the term. it may be a value judgement but life is full of those. Personally I am more disturbed by the many threads on mfp of 'I can eat what I like within my calories' or discussing various junk foods as if eating them was some kind of prize or achievement.
I don't see this. I see lots of people being told that they should eat a healthy diet of mostly nutrient dense foods and adequate macros and micros but that they can include within that foods they particularly love that might be higher cal/lower nutrient in appropriate portions or on occasion. I expect I've made such posts myself. And I don't do it to discourage people who have decided to give up something or other (I often post about how I have dropped foods for a time for my own reasons), but because I think a lot of people assume that to lose weight they have to eat a special "diet" diet that is all about low cals or self-punishment and must look virtuous and dull -- the number of people I see eating only chicken breast and rice cakes or diet frozen meals or the like (often not with a good variety of vegetables) is sad, as I doubt they enjoy the meals (I don't comment unless invited to, though). Similarly, people post about only eating fruits and veg, assuming that's a good diet. My frustration with clean eating (usually defined as "no processed food" here, but that means weird things to people) is that it's just another manner of eating that seems to distract from actually understanding nutrition (Need2 may have a definition of clean eating I don't understand, but she doesn't say it's the same as eating healthy and she does understand nutrition). IMO, if you have some reason of your own to eat "clean" under some individual definition, I don't care (although I hate the term). I eat according to my own principles, which means making things from scratch at home, sourcing from local farms when possible, not eating ultra processed stuff (but then I'm a total hypocrite since I get into phases where I buy lunch all the time, although from places that meet my standards), eating lots of veg, etc. But what I don't do is confuse the fact that I would never, ever buy jarred pasta sauce and prefer to make my own salad dressing and don't buy supermarket bread with a claim that doing those things is healthier or has a thing to do with weight loss. I despise American cheese product and love trying new European cheeses or local American varieties, but I don't pretend that snobby cheeses are any better for the waistline. They just taste better. In fact, the best cheese for me for weight loss is my supermarket feta, since it has a strong taste, is low cal, and is easily available and inexpensive.
I do think there's fun with people talking about how they still enjoy ice cream or pizza (which can be made at home) or the like, or even Oreos, although I haven't yet read that thread, but I don't see what that has to do with clean eating or whether it helps with a diet. Under your definition of clean eating, if I'm understanding, I can made a strawberry rhubarb pie (which another MFP clean eater told me was "processed junk" and inherently too sweet although he never tasted my pie, obviously) or a homemade cookie or cupcake and that's fine, but those foods are as calorific (and IMO harder to resist) as any store-bought sweet.
I guess I'm partially skeptical of the clean eating craze because I managed to gain plenty of weight when I was much more into a "natural" approach to eating.
I think it's interesting because we were asked to give a definition of clean eating. I gave one. I didn't say that I followed it or what people should eat. I simply said that people should pay more attention to the food that they eat and where it comes from. Ultimately someone eating 'clean' (regardless of their personal definition) will probably pay more attention to the additives in their foods and come to their own conclusions about what they want to ingest. Personally I think knowledge is power so 'I want to eat clean' is not a terrible statement and doesn't deserve the pariah status it gets on these boards.
Because "I want to eat clean" actually tends to mean wanting to avoid true knowledge, frankly. Paying attention to food additives is shallow, listicle knowledge when the person doesn't actually know what those additives are.
The classic example for MFP being someone going off about sodium bicarbonate (baking soda!) being a deadly toxin because it can remove paint. That kind it'd thing is why the clean eating "I want to know what is in my food" gets "pariah" status - people that want to know what is in food to scare themselves out of foods because they want to know things but have no interest in doing the hard work of understanding things.0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »
Banter and rebuttal is fine. But I wonder what you were looking for, in the end? Obviously it's useful to the people who use it. As I said, is 'healthy' no longer a useful word because different people have different idea on what 'healthy eating' means? Shall we all decide to ban certain words from the English language because their meaning is fluid?diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I don't know why people argue about this so much on this board. Everywhere else I post agrees that clean eating is only eating foods you could grow/prepare yourself. ypu don't have to do it yourself, you can buy them,but they can't require a laboratory or ingredients you can't buy in a grocery store. So butter is clean (because you could get milk and churn it yourself if you had the time) but margarine isn't because you couldn't make it in your kitchen. Likewise peanut butter made from peanuts and salt is clean. Protein powder isn't. It's pretty obvious really
Everyone in this *thread* doesn't agree with your definition. We've got people arguing that ground foods (like polenta and peanut butter and ground beef) aren't clean. And I've seen people argue that dairy isn't clean.
Your definitions may be obvious to you, but they aren't universal. Plenty of those who think they are eating clean disagree with you.
Vegans don't consider butter "clean".
Paleo dieters don't consider peanuts "clean".
Whelp. There goes another arbitrary definition of "clean eating" out the window.
No vegans don't consider butter vegan. And paleo eaters don't consider peanuts paleo. That's an additional dietary restriction.
OP I see your point but as I said the pointless arguments about clean only seem to happen on this board because people seem to take it personally that some people don't want to eat artificial ingredients. Everywhere else I post that is the standard.
And I think that attributing it to "taking it personally" or personal offense ignores the broader point. If two clean eaters in this very thread can't agree, I don't think that you can say that the argument is solely caused by those who aren't clean eaters or that it's pointless. I've laid out my point and my reasoning for this thread several times upthread.
Although, I do tend to take it personally when clean eaters tell me, for instance, that I'll get cancer for eating the way I do (though they hardly ever know the details of my diet or health history). But that's not on topic for this thread.
But it's just semantics. It's the same if you asked two people to define a 'healthy' diet. Or 'beautiful'. There are always going to be different definitions of a word. But the OP asked what is clean and I told her the standards definition across the other boards I frequent.
Also to whoever asked about wine, you can make wine yourself with enough grapes and time. But you could never make canola oil in your kitchen.
I am the OP. I did ask what clean eating is. I also asked if it was a useful descriptor at the end of the post. And I added a disclaimer that this would be a post where replies would likely have some amount of banter and rebuttal.
It's presented as a judgment -- the word itself demonstrates that -- but there are no external standards to allow us to discuss the meaning of "clean" beyond "well, I say so."
With healthy, we can discuss what is a healthful diet, different studies, how certain choices relate to certain goals or outcomes, etc. Sure, we will never be able to agree 100% (any more than we can agree on whether a particular book is great or not) but there are specific things we can look to that allow for a reasoned discussion or argument as to why, in my view, a diet without vegetables is typically not a healthy diet. (And with the book example I'd point to aspects of the writing beyond "I just really enjoyed it!" or "I thought it was dumb!")
With clean, we have two different primary definitions in this thread -- yours (which for the record kind of appeals to me and is more consistent with how I like to eat, although I am not perfect still) and Need2's which would make beef I grind myself at home not clean, because it's no longer in a natural form.
I mean, if she thinks that's so, she does, and there's no basis to argue, but I also don't see how the term has any general applicability or clarity, then, such that it is useful at all. I don't see why killing an animal and skinning it and processing it into specific cuts = natural, but chopping it up beyond that = not. I don't see why grinding wheat and corn (as certain ancestors of mine did in the middle of nowhere Iowa in the 1830s, as they had a mill) = not natural, but corn itself, a crop that has been changed immensely from how it started out (like so many others) and needs help to reproduce = natural. It's impossible to discuss as we would health principles relating to nutrition. It's just kind of "well, this feels natural and this does not."
I kind of get it because I used to be obsessive about "eating natural" to the point of refusing to buy dried pasta or canned tomatoes (I'd buy off-season tasteless tomatoes and make pasta from flour, though) and flirting with the idea of trying a locovore challenge (back then the idea of giving up coffee and wine was too much, and local wine is not acceptable). But it seems just mystical or about feel vs. anything concrete or related to health.
Well yes, Need2 has her own definition and I don't really see her logic but if it helps her eat and feel better then there's no point arguing it further.
But it seems we agree on many things, just not the term. it may be a value judgement but life is full of those. Personally I am more disturbed by the many threads on mfp of 'I can eat what I like within my calories' or discussing various junk foods as if eating them was some kind of prize or achievement.
I don't see this. I see lots of people being told that they should eat a healthy diet of mostly nutrient dense foods and adequate macros and micros but that they can include within that foods they particularly love that might be higher cal/lower nutrient in appropriate portions or on occasion. I expect I've made such posts myself. And I don't do it to discourage people who have decided to give up something or other (I often post about how I have dropped foods for a time for my own reasons), but because I think a lot of people assume that to lose weight they have to eat a special "diet" diet that is all about low cals or self-punishment and must look virtuous and dull -- the number of people I see eating only chicken breast and rice cakes or diet frozen meals or the like (often not with a good variety of vegetables) is sad, as I doubt they enjoy the meals (I don't comment unless invited to, though). Similarly, people post about only eating fruits and veg, assuming that's a good diet. My frustration with clean eating (usually defined as "no processed food" here, but that means weird things to people) is that it's just another manner of eating that seems to distract from actually understanding nutrition (Need2 may have a definition of clean eating I don't understand, but she doesn't say it's the same as eating healthy and she does understand nutrition). IMO, if you have some reason of your own to eat "clean" under some individual definition, I don't care (although I hate the term). I eat according to my own principles, which means making things from scratch at home, sourcing from local farms when possible, not eating ultra processed stuff (but then I'm a total hypocrite since I get into phases where I buy lunch all the time, although from places that meet my standards), eating lots of veg, etc. But what I don't do is confuse the fact that I would never, ever buy jarred pasta sauce and prefer to make my own salad dressing and don't buy supermarket bread with a claim that doing those things is healthier or has a thing to do with weight loss. I despise American cheese product and love trying new European cheeses or local American varieties, but I don't pretend that snobby cheeses are any better for the waistline. They just taste better. In fact, the best cheese for me for weight loss is my supermarket feta, since it has a strong taste, is low cal, and is easily available and inexpensive.
I do think there's fun with people talking about how they still enjoy ice cream or pizza (which can be made at home) or the like, or even Oreos, although I haven't yet read that thread, but I don't see what that has to do with clean eating or whether it helps with a diet. Under your definition of clean eating, if I'm understanding, I can made a strawberry rhubarb pie (which another MFP clean eater told me was "processed junk" and inherently too sweet although he never tasted my pie, obviously) or a homemade cookie or cupcake and that's fine, but those foods are as calorific (and IMO harder to resist) as any store-bought sweet.
I guess I'm partially skeptical of the clean eating craze because I managed to gain plenty of weight when I was much more into a "natural" approach to eating.
I think it's interesting because we were asked to give a definition of clean eating. I gave one. I didn't say that I followed it or what people should eat. I simply said that people should pay more attention to the food that they eat and where it comes from. Ultimately someone eating 'clean' (regardless of their personal definition) will probably pay more attention to the additives in their foods and come to their own conclusions about what they want to ingest. Personally I think knowledge is power so 'I want to eat clean' is not a terrible statement and doesn't deserve the pariah status it gets on these boards.
Because "I want to eat clean" actually tends to mean wanting to avoid true knowledge, frankly. Paying attention to food additives is shallow, listicle knowledge when the person doesn't actually know what those additives are.
The classic example for MFP being someone going off about sodium bicarbonate (baking soda!) being a deadly toxin because it can remove paint. That kind it'd thing is why the clean eating "I want to know what is in my food" gets "pariah" status - people that want to know what is in food to scare themselves out of foods because they want to know things but have no interest in doing the hard work of understanding things.
You say that like it's true0 -
To me clean means foods that grow out of the ground, or that come from living things with faces. Not that I eat only those foods, but if I want to be satiated so I don't overindulge in junkier foods I make sure foods in those categories make up the majority of my diet.
It seems this discussion is similar to the criticism of Paleo because there's a perception that people who follow Paleo care about the historical significance of eating vegetables and meats. The reality is that most people who eat clean (see definition above) don't give a rat's *kitten* what cavemen ate. It just happens to be that when you go from eating junk to eating clean, you tend to eat less, lose weight and perform better in the gym. This was my experience as I followed Paleo from 2010 to 2013. Lost 60# of fat, gained 25# of muscle and went from no lifting experience to squatting, deadlifting and pressing hundreds of lbs. Is this the only way to do all of the above? Nope, but it works. I don't see the big deal.
Seems ragging on someone's food choices because they can't define it is in the same category as criticizing someone's exercise on YouTube. It's like a snarky, unnecessary circle jerk.0 -
Yep. This, FTW!2snakeswoman wrote: »To me, it means foods that are not processed, that you can take directly from nature and eat or drink with 0 to minimal preparation.0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »How do you make lard at home in your kitchen?
it is extremely easy. Render pork fat on low heat. Strain out the Cracklins/lardons. Let the remaining liquid fat solidify.
It's just about the same process as clarifying butter.
Huh, neat. Not like I'd ever make some, but still neat.
Next question: Wine was mentioned. You need quite a bit of equipment to make wine that is not found in your average kitchen or needs to be made DIY. What differentiates that equipment needed for equipment to make anything else that you'd not usually make yourself?
For example there's kits to make your own candy for sale, with all ingredients you need. Does that make candy clean?
Also you don't seem to understand my point about 'clean'. The question is if you could replicate all the ingredients shown on a good item and make it at home. If the ingredients for a loaf of bread are flour, yeast, salt then yes, you could. If there are 10+ ingredients most of which you have no idea what they are then no, you couldn't. It's not a complicated idea but you seem to be unable to grasp it.
Why is yeast clean? Can't really make it at home, S. cerevisiae doesn't really remain that pure if you do so, generally must be store bought.
Is blue cheese clean?
Cazu marzu?
Yoghurt? Only if you make it?
I Make sourdough bread so I have a 'mother'. She's a ball of pulsating life. But once again, I never said this was about not buying things from a store. It's about paying attention to what's in what you're buying from a store.
What kinds of things might be in food from the store that I should avoid?
Whatever you choose.
This response kinda proves the point that telling someone to "eat clean" as advice is unhelpful and vague.0 -
It's just another buzzword that for some reason inflames people here on the forums. Why I don't know, because "eating clean" if we accept it as a buzzword would mean eating things we would eat regardless, maybe in different forms. I see it as no more incorrect than a lot of other advice on here that attaches the yes or no labels to absolutes needed in diet composition.
Being that the reality is that more processed foods in a less natural state (unclean I assume) would really be no less or more healthy, I see no point in suggesting either. But the diet industry loves the buzzwords, so many people will think it's going to change things.0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »
Banter and rebuttal is fine. But I wonder what you were looking for, in the end? Obviously it's useful to the people who use it. As I said, is 'healthy' no longer a useful word because different people have different idea on what 'healthy eating' means? Shall we all decide to ban certain words from the English language because their meaning is fluid?diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I don't know why people argue about this so much on this board. Everywhere else I post agrees that clean eating is only eating foods you could grow/prepare yourself. ypu don't have to do it yourself, you can buy them,but they can't require a laboratory or ingredients you can't buy in a grocery store. So butter is clean (because you could get milk and churn it yourself if you had the time) but margarine isn't because you couldn't make it in your kitchen. Likewise peanut butter made from peanuts and salt is clean. Protein powder isn't. It's pretty obvious really
Everyone in this *thread* doesn't agree with your definition. We've got people arguing that ground foods (like polenta and peanut butter and ground beef) aren't clean. And I've seen people argue that dairy isn't clean.
Your definitions may be obvious to you, but they aren't universal. Plenty of those who think they are eating clean disagree with you.
Vegans don't consider butter "clean".
Paleo dieters don't consider peanuts "clean".
Whelp. There goes another arbitrary definition of "clean eating" out the window.
No vegans don't consider butter vegan. And paleo eaters don't consider peanuts paleo. That's an additional dietary restriction.
OP I see your point but as I said the pointless arguments about clean only seem to happen on this board because people seem to take it personally that some people don't want to eat artificial ingredients. Everywhere else I post that is the standard.
And I think that attributing it to "taking it personally" or personal offense ignores the broader point. If two clean eaters in this very thread can't agree, I don't think that you can say that the argument is solely caused by those who aren't clean eaters or that it's pointless. I've laid out my point and my reasoning for this thread several times upthread.
Although, I do tend to take it personally when clean eaters tell me, for instance, that I'll get cancer for eating the way I do (though they hardly ever know the details of my diet or health history). But that's not on topic for this thread.
But it's just semantics. It's the same if you asked two people to define a 'healthy' diet. Or 'beautiful'. There are always going to be different definitions of a word. But the OP asked what is clean and I told her the standards definition across the other boards I frequent.
Also to whoever asked about wine, you can make wine yourself with enough grapes and time. But you could never make canola oil in your kitchen.
I am the OP. I did ask what clean eating is. I also asked if it was a useful descriptor at the end of the post. And I added a disclaimer that this would be a post where replies would likely have some amount of banter and rebuttal.
It's presented as a judgment -- the word itself demonstrates that -- but there are no external standards to allow us to discuss the meaning of "clean" beyond "well, I say so."
With healthy, we can discuss what is a healthful diet, different studies, how certain choices relate to certain goals or outcomes, etc. Sure, we will never be able to agree 100% (any more than we can agree on whether a particular book is great or not) but there are specific things we can look to that allow for a reasoned discussion or argument as to why, in my view, a diet without vegetables is typically not a healthy diet. (And with the book example I'd point to aspects of the writing beyond "I just really enjoyed it!" or "I thought it was dumb!")
With clean, we have two different primary definitions in this thread -- yours (which for the record kind of appeals to me and is more consistent with how I like to eat, although I am not perfect still) and Need2's which would make beef I grind myself at home not clean, because it's no longer in a natural form.
I mean, if she thinks that's so, she does, and there's no basis to argue, but I also don't see how the term has any general applicability or clarity, then, such that it is useful at all. I don't see why killing an animal and skinning it and processing it into specific cuts = natural, but chopping it up beyond that = not. I don't see why grinding wheat and corn (as certain ancestors of mine did in the middle of nowhere Iowa in the 1830s, as they had a mill) = not natural, but corn itself, a crop that has been changed immensely from how it started out (like so many others) and needs help to reproduce = natural. It's impossible to discuss as we would health principles relating to nutrition. It's just kind of "well, this feels natural and this does not."
I kind of get it because I used to be obsessive about "eating natural" to the point of refusing to buy dried pasta or canned tomatoes (I'd buy off-season tasteless tomatoes and make pasta from flour, though) and flirting with the idea of trying a locovore challenge (back then the idea of giving up coffee and wine was too much, and local wine is not acceptable). But it seems just mystical or about feel vs. anything concrete or related to health.
Well yes, Need2 has her own definition and I don't really see her logic but if it helps her eat and feel better then there's no point arguing it further.
But it seems we agree on many things, just not the term. it may be a value judgement but life is full of those. Personally I am more disturbed by the many threads on mfp of 'I can eat what I like within my calories' or discussing various junk foods as if eating them was some kind of prize or achievement.
I don't see this. I see lots of people being told that they should eat a healthy diet of mostly nutrient dense foods and adequate macros and micros but that they can include within that foods they particularly love that might be higher cal/lower nutrient in appropriate portions or on occasion. I expect I've made such posts myself. And I don't do it to discourage people who have decided to give up something or other (I often post about how I have dropped foods for a time for my own reasons), but because I think a lot of people assume that to lose weight they have to eat a special "diet" diet that is all about low cals or self-punishment and must look virtuous and dull -- the number of people I see eating only chicken breast and rice cakes or diet frozen meals or the like (often not with a good variety of vegetables) is sad, as I doubt they enjoy the meals (I don't comment unless invited to, though). Similarly, people post about only eating fruits and veg, assuming that's a good diet. My frustration with clean eating (usually defined as "no processed food" here, but that means weird things to people) is that it's just another manner of eating that seems to distract from actually understanding nutrition (Need2 may have a definition of clean eating I don't understand, but she doesn't say it's the same as eating healthy and she does understand nutrition). IMO, if you have some reason of your own to eat "clean" under some individual definition, I don't care (although I hate the term). I eat according to my own principles, which means making things from scratch at home, sourcing from local farms when possible, not eating ultra processed stuff (but then I'm a total hypocrite since I get into phases where I buy lunch all the time, although from places that meet my standards), eating lots of veg, etc. But what I don't do is confuse the fact that I would never, ever buy jarred pasta sauce and prefer to make my own salad dressing and don't buy supermarket bread with a claim that doing those things is healthier or has a thing to do with weight loss. I despise American cheese product and love trying new European cheeses or local American varieties, but I don't pretend that snobby cheeses are any better for the waistline. They just taste better. In fact, the best cheese for me for weight loss is my supermarket feta, since it has a strong taste, is low cal, and is easily available and inexpensive.
I do think there's fun with people talking about how they still enjoy ice cream or pizza (which can be made at home) or the like, or even Oreos, although I haven't yet read that thread, but I don't see what that has to do with clean eating or whether it helps with a diet. Under your definition of clean eating, if I'm understanding, I can made a strawberry rhubarb pie (which another MFP clean eater told me was "processed junk" and inherently too sweet although he never tasted my pie, obviously) or a homemade cookie or cupcake and that's fine, but those foods are as calorific (and IMO harder to resist) as any store-bought sweet.
I guess I'm partially skeptical of the clean eating craze because I managed to gain plenty of weight when I was much more into a "natural" approach to eating.
I think it's interesting because we were asked to give a definition of clean eating. I gave one. I didn't say that I followed it or what people should eat.
Oh, don't get me wrong -- I appreciate the input and I actually like your definition. I wish it were more the norm around here. I still wouldn't think it mapped to weight loss or better nutrition, but I'd understand it more (and I sort of try to follow it myself without doing so 100% or calling it clean).
This is petty, but one reason I get bugged by the "I clean eat" thing is that most of them eat like me, and yet I would never call myself a clean eater not only because the term irritates me, but because I know I break the rules (under any version) all the time. But people who also do are acting all superior and claiming that non clean eaters don't care what they put in their body because they won't use a special label or decide that perfectly healthful foods like smoked salmon or occasional ice cream are unclean.I simply said that people should pay more attention to the food that they eat and where it comes from.
I doubt you will get much pushback on this. I certainly agree and recommend reading labels (for ingredients as well as calories) and being mindful in general all the time.Ultimately someone eating 'clean' (regardless of their personal definition) will probably pay more attention to the additives in their foods and come to their own conclusions about what they want to ingest. Personally I think knowledge is power so 'I want to eat clean' is not a terrible statement and doesn't deserve the pariah status it gets on these boards.
Agree that knowledge is to be valued. Disagreed that "eating clean" as I've seen it on MFP gets you there. After all, lots of people seem to assume any supermarket bacon or deli meat is clean or define "clean" to exclude the processed junk that is my homemade strawberry rhubarb pie (no additives of the sort I assume you mean) or claim that all processed stuff is "packed with" added sugar (not true for my smoked salmon or cottage cheese, although they are not void of sugar, of course, and also not true of the ground beef I buy from a local farm). But my point is that "clean" or not doesn't seem to directly map to nutrition or weight loss, so people should stop suggesting "eat clean" as how to lose weight for someone already counting calories. If the person wants to, great, but processed foods (like my smoked salmon or ice cream) don't prevent you from losing weight.0 -
To me clean means foods that grow out of the ground, or that come from living things with faces. Not that I eat only those foods, but if I want to be satiated so I don't overindulge in junkier foods I make sure foods in those categories make up the majority of my diet.
Maybe I'm nutty, but I can't think of anything I eat that doesn't fit those categories.
For example, I'd say that olive oil or coconut oil = foods that grow out of the ground. The processing doesn't change that (for example, pressing the olive).
But it's well established I am not a clean eater, so that definition must be too inclusive.It seems this discussion is similar to the criticism of Paleo because there's a perception that people who follow Paleo care about the historical significance of eating vegetables and meats. The reality is that most people who eat clean (see definition above) don't give a rat's *kitten* what cavemen ate. It just happens to be that when you go from eating junk to eating clean, you tend to eat less, lose weight and perform better in the gym. This was my experience as I followed Paleo from 2010 to 2013. Lost 60# of fat, gained 25# of muscle and went from no lifting experience to squatting, deadlifting and pressing hundreds of lbs. Is this the only way to do all of the above? Nope, but it works. I don't see the big deal.
If you ate a bad diet it can be a way of forcing yourself to eat a good diet. If you already eat a pretty good diet (lots of protein, veg, whole grains, fiber), it likely will not improve your diet and may worsen it. I tried paleo because I wanted to cut out sweets and try out the grains are bad thing, and besides I don't much like grains (unless mixed with sugar or fat) so figured it would be an easy way to cut calories. It was an easy way to cut calories, but I ended up deciding it didn't make sense as I thought dairy and legumes made my diet healthier (still agree with this) and since I don't care about grains I'm not going to overeat them, so they are a dumb thing to cut out.Seems ragging on someone's food choices because they can't define it is in the same category as criticizing someone's exercise on YouTube. It's like a snarky, unnecessary circle jerk.
Hmm. I see claiming "I eat clean, you don't" to be the snarky thing (especially since they rarely even follow their own rules). If they are claiming to be superior based on how they eat I want evidence supporting the idea.0 -
Yep. This, FTW!2snakeswoman wrote: »To me, it means foods that are not processed, that you can take directly from nature and eat or drink with 0 to minimal preparation.
So meat is out, cooked vegetables are out, obviously bread is out. Today, we are all raw vegans. Cool, but not IMO the most nutritious way of eating. Nor especially feasible where I live, when there are essentially no fruits and veg available (and canning is a process) for a portion of the year (including, of course, February). So under your definition, not sure what I could eat.0 -
Heartisalonelyhunter wrote: »I think it's interesting because we were asked to give a definition of clean eating. I gave one. I didn't say that I followed it or what people should eat. I simply said that people should pay more attention to the food that they eat and where it comes from. Ultimately someone eating 'clean' (regardless of their personal definition) will probably pay more attention to the additives in their foods and come to their own conclusions about what they want to ingest. Personally I think knowledge is power so 'I want to eat clean' is not a terrible statement and doesn't deserve the pariah status it gets on these boards.
I don't see "clean eaters" relegated to pariah status - just as I don't see vegans, paleo, keto or any other way of eating relegated to such. What I see is that when people insist that you have to "eat clean" to lose weight, break through a plateau, gain muscle, etc., or when an adherent to a particular way of eating starts attributing magical powers to it, others jump in to clear up misconceptions and dispel falsehoods. Which is as it should be, in an effort to provide the most scientifically sound information to other members.
Actually, the way of eating I see most often relegated to pariah status is 'flexible dieting' or 'IIFYM' or whatever you'd like to call it. There have already been a few examples of it in this thread. They're accused of eating nothing but junk, living on sugar, shoveling fast food down their throats all day, etc. - complete ignorance of the overall context of the diet.
I've been active in the MFP forums for 4 years and I have yet to see anybody in any thread anywhere advocate eating a diet consisting entirely (or even mostly) of fast food, candy, ice cream, pop tarts, oreos, beer, etc. I've seen plenty of people say they ate those things in moderation while successfully losing weight and improving their health/fitness (myself included), but not telling anybody that their diet should consist mostly/entirely of such things. The usual advice (and what IIFYM actually stands for) is to eat a balanced diet which provides adequate macro and micronutrients while staying within one's calorie goals, but there's nothing wrong with having a few oreos or a bowl of ice cream or a pop tart or whatever if your nutritional needs have been met and you still have room in your calorie goal. As the quote from (nutrition researcher/bodybuilder) Eric Helms says, "Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food!".1 -
I can see the "pariah status" going both ways on these forums to be fair. I think that's the sad thing that happens, when people perceive themselves to be attacked or shamed, is that everyone feels cornered and desperate to defend their position. Somehow everyone stops listening and no one feels they can learn anything from the other.
I have have seen many a sanctimonious clean eater, often still in the honeymoon phase with their new epiphany, come on to the forum and quickly do everyone's nut in. But often the response by some people to want to ram virtual doughnuts down their throats probably isn't all that helpful either.
So it does go back to moderation, but moderation is precisely what a lot of people struggle with. You hear many people say they have a small amount of chocolate/ice cream/biscuits (whatever...) every day as long as it fits their calorie goal. But some people can't just have one chocolate, it's got to be nothing or the whole pack, and I suppose for them there is an attraction in the fantasy of control by complete elimination. All the evil fat gaining is blamed and projected on whatever the eliminated food is and Bob's Your Uncle. I think it's a human trait to want something external to blame, simple black and white answers and a quick fix. It often takes a few times of failing (and looking for another quick fix, something to blame etc) before people can look up and take on board that things are not black and white and that it's a bit of a case of "horses for courses".
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