Training for a 30 mile trail run!
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So I'm going to add a little different perspective here. I've done 3 greater than marathon distance trail "runs"/hikes. Unless you are a really strong runner, you may be able to finish faster by running less. At the very minimum, finish the same with less wear and tear on your body. A lot will depend on the terrain. The ones we've done were very hilly. Fast walk the level, climb hard on the uphills and run the downhill. We hop scotch many runners that pass on the flat, but we blow past on the climbs when they have to recover. I also hit the downhills a little wrecklessly, but it's fast. While not considering myself a runner in these events, I finish in the top 25-40% of the entrants. I also don't need to run as part of my training either.0
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »What type of training program are you doing? Are you following 80/20 training? If you are going to up your millage so much in just a little bit you probalby should be doing a lot in the low intensity area to avoid injury. I'm sure you can finish the race but it's the training injury risk that would have me concerned.
I don't even know that I would do 80/20 in this instance. If she's only running 3-6 miles at a time right now and has 5 months to get up to 50K I'd recommend everything be low intensity miles. Time on feet and having a good high volume base is much more important than pace/speed.
Of course we still have no idea when she ran that half marathon that one time or what her current mpw is.
I think her MPW right now is pretty low, probably under 15 by the sounds of it. Low intensity would probably be around 12 miles per minute? All speculation, of course.
If she can run 12 miles per minute she'll have no problems completing this 50K.
Low intensity is whatever she can run at a pace at which she could carry on a conversation. Could be a 12 minute mile could be an 8 minute mile. All we know is she ran a half one time and runs somewhere between 3 and 6 miles per run some unknown number of days per week.
I just wouldn't be doing any intervals and probably not even much in the way of tempo runs if I was doing what we seem to think the OP is trying to do.
Yeah, I think a full stop to all speed work is probably in order. Sounds like OP is a little below 10k trained right now, with a half marathon under her belt at some point in the past? This is definitely long, slow mileage territory. I think I once had a 20-week ultra plan, and that first long run was still 8 miles, graduating quickly to back-to-back long runs (the bread and butter of ultra training). Pace will entirely depend on terrain. Though, a runnable 50k is in many ways much more difficult to a mountainous one.
tl;dr: Still don't have enough info to advise.0 -
So I'm going to add a little different perspective here. I've done 3 greater than marathon distance trail "runs"/hikes. Unless you are a really strong runner, you may be able to finish faster by running less. At the very minimum, finish the same with less wear and tear on your body. A lot will depend on the terrain. The ones we've done were very hilly. Fast walk the level, climb hard on the uphills and run the downhill. We hop scotch many runners that pass on the flat, but we blow past on the climbs when they have to recover. I also hit the downhills a little wrecklessly, but it's fast. While not considering myself a runner in these events, I finish in the top 25-40% of the entrants. I also don't need to run as part of my training either.
This is really exciting news to me! I'm way down on mileage for a knee issue and I'm looking forward to a PR in my next marathon.0 -
While the questions being asked are pertinent, some of the tone in this thread sounds like a lot of people are just wanting to find reasons to give a lecture, as opposed to friendly advice.
OP has been asked simple questions that are absolutely essential for which she hasn't responded to most and you have issue with the "tone" of those trying (but unable because missing info) to provide useful information?
What have *you* added to this thread? I mean, besides the mini-lecture to those actually trying to help.0 -
So I'm going to add a little different perspective here. I've done 3 greater than marathon distance trail "runs"/hikes. Unless you are a really strong runner, you may be able to finish faster by running less. At the very minimum, finish the same with less wear and tear on your body. A lot will depend on the terrain. The ones we've done were very hilly. Fast walk the level, climb hard on the uphills and run the downhill. We hop scotch many runners that pass on the flat, but we blow past on the climbs when they have to recover. I also hit the downhills a little wrecklessly, but it's fast. While not considering myself a runner in these events, I finish in the top 25-40% of the entrants. I also don't need to run as part of my training either.
Thanks for this advice rybo! Good information! My plan has been to walk/run as needed based on the terrain! Im not going to respond to everyone else, because there are too many...lol!
I'll keep you all posted on my progress!0 -
jofjltncb6 wrote: »While the questions being asked are pertinent, some of the tone in this thread sounds like a lot of people are just wanting to find reasons to give a lecture, as opposed to friendly advice.
OP has been asked simple questions that are absolutely essential for which she hasn't responded to most and you have issue with the "tone" of those trying (but unable because missing info) to provide useful information?
What have *you* added to this thread? I mean, besides the mini-lecture to those actually trying to help.
Yeah I don't think it's any different than the numerous "I'm not losing weight!" threads on here. People come on and suggest that they might be logging inaccurately or various other suggestions. It's not always what the OP wants to hear. But it doesn't mean the people offering advice are rude or mean or want to lecture anyone. They've probably just been in that same place themselves and want to pass that info along.
If the OP wants to hear they can go from 6 miles to 50k in a really short amount of time without risking injury they aren't going to get that advice from me. I also don't tell people to 'eat more' when they complain they aren't losing weight.0 -
What kinds of gps watches do you all use?!0
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While the questions being asked are pertinent, some of the tone in this thread sounds like a lot of people are just wanting to find reasons to give a lecture, as opposed to friendly advice.
and your friendly advice is? or are you just finding an opportunity to sound butthurt?
OP....along with the usual advice of building volume slowly etc etc etc the word that comes to my mind is specificity.
If you're running a long trail race spend a good proportion of your training time running in conditions as close to the race course as you can find. Trails typically involve hills and if you've spent most of your training time running on nice flat terrain they will seriously kick your butt.
I'm running my first trail race this summer too, fortunately the course is a short drive from my home (and I know I need to spend a lot more time on hills.....)
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AllonsYtotheTardis wrote: »I just started training a week ago! Downloaded the "run trainer," app by the makers of MFP! They have me running intervals and cross training to build a good base. By next weekend I'll be running 6 miles for my long run!
By the makers of MFP, you say.
I don't see what could possibly go wrong.
This nearly made my coffee shoot through my nose. I will be laughing about this comment all day. Thank you!0 -
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
That's a nice running platform!0 -
@ktfranke
I can summarize easily all the questions from posters here:
1. how many miles per week are you running now?
2. how long ago did you run your half marathon?
3. how fast was it?
4. have you been training running between the half marathon and now? If so, how many miles per week?
the answers to these questions will guide your training more than anything, and enable the posters to give useful feedback.0 -
For roads or things 50k or under, FR610
For 50k+, Fenix.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
That's a nice running platform!
It's a great watch. I use it for pretty much everything.0 -
@ktfranke
I can summarize easily all the questions from posters here:
1. how many miles per week are you running now?
2. how long ago did you run your half marathon?
3. how fast was it?
4. have you been training running between the half marathon and now? If so, how many miles per week?
the answers to these questions will guide your training more than anything, and enable the posters to give useful feedback.
Thanks Drachfit!
1. I am currently running about 15 miles a week.
2. I ran a half marathon trail run two years ago, and have hiked the 30 mile trail (the same one that I will be running in July) the last 2 summers.
3. My half marathon took me 2:32:00 with 1,730ft. Elevation gain.
4. I have maintained my 15 miles a week, fairly consistently ever since I ran the half.0 -
So all the negativity on your post is why I don't ask questions on MFP. I read your original post and saw that you have run an half. Yes, there is a lot of difference between 13 and 30, but you obviously know that with greater distance comes greater (and smarter) work.
Ignore the naysayers; follow a good training plan; have fun!0 -
Cave_Goose wrote: »So all the negativity on your post is why I don't ask questions on MFP. I read your original post and saw that you have run an half. Yes, there is a lot of difference between 13 and 30, but you obviously know that with greater distance comes greater (and smarter) work.
Ignore the naysayers; follow a good training plan; have fun!
Naysayers? Negativity? Are you sure you were reading this thread?0 -
@ktfranke
I can summarize easily all the questions from posters here:
1. how many miles per week are you running now?
2. how long ago did you run your half marathon?
3. how fast was it?
4. have you been training running between the half marathon and now? If so, how many miles per week?
the answers to these questions will guide your training more than anything, and enable the posters to give useful feedback.
Thanks Drachfit!
1. I am currently running about 15 miles a week.
2. I ran a half marathon trail run two years ago, and have hiked the 30 mile trail (the same one that I will be running in July) the last 2 summers.
3. My half marathon took me 2:32:00 with 1,730ft. Elevation gain.
4. I have maintained my 15 miles a week, fairly consistently ever since I ran the half.
Lots of easy miles. Find a plan (any 50K plan will work - even a beginner marathon plan will get you there) and follow it as close as you can but basically get as much time on your feet as you can. If you can do some back to back long runs once you have a better mileage base built up that will help you a lot. Don't add mileage too quickly. Don't worry about intervals or tempo runs. As much running on trails and hills as you can.
Most ultramarathon plans assume you've already been running 25 mpw for a few months prior to starting the plan and go anywhere from 18 to 24 weeks from that base. You're a little behind the curve as far as that goes but it's not the end of the world. Just be careful of overuse injuries and take an easy week from time to time to let your body catch up.0 -
Thanks Drachfit!
1. I am currently running about 15 miles a week.
2. I ran a half marathon trail run two years ago, and have hiked the 30 mile trail (the same one that I will be running in July) the last 2 summers.
3. My half marathon took me 2:32:00 with 1,730ft. Elevation gain.
4. I have maintained my 15 miles a week, fairly consistently ever since I ran the half.
@ktfranke ,
I think people were worried you were not training recently. But if you at least have the 15mpw base then it is just a matter of ramping the volume up significantly. You have 4 months plus a couple weeks on either end, or about 18 weeks to do so.
Most marathon plans are 18 weeks plus a week or two to taper, so you are right on the hairy edge right now. But it may be doable if you avoid injury. If you follow the rule that you shouldnt increase total distance more than ~10% a week, you can be running 50+miles/week in about 12-13 weeks, which is right where you need to be about 3 weeks before your race.
Find a beginner marathon or ultramarathon plan and stick to it. I think the biggest worry here is you have to increase your mileage a fair bit over what you are used to so the major thing is INJURY PREVENTION. get good nutrition, don't focus on losing weight. You probably will lose a little without trying once the mileage builds, but your goal should be to maintain weight so you are properly recovering. focus on lots of sleep. and if you feel any minor discomforts in your joints, deal with them ASAP or they will turn into overuse injuries in a few weeks. This may involve stretching, foam rolling, eating/sleeping more, or being very conscious of correct running technique during your runs.
sounds fun. id say you are a little behind the 8 ball here, but not insurmountably so. a slightly aggressive goal is good! get after it!0 -
Thanks Drachfit!
1. I am currently running about 15 miles a week.
2. I ran a half marathon trail run two years ago, and have hiked the 30 mile trail (the same one that I will be running in July) the last 2 summers.
3. My half marathon took me 2:32:00 with 1,730ft. Elevation gain.
4. I have maintained my 15 miles a week, fairly consistently ever since I ran the half.
@ktfranke ,
I think people were worried you were not training recently. But if you at least have the 15mpw base then it is just a matter of ramping the volume up significantly. You have 4 months plus a couple weeks on either end, or about 18 weeks to do so.
Most marathon plans are 18 weeks plus a week or two to taper, so you are right on the hairy edge right now. But it may be doable if you avoid injury. If you follow the rule that you shouldnt increase total distance more than ~10% a week, you can be running 50+miles/week in about 12-13 weeks, which is right where you need to be about 3 weeks before your race.
Find a beginner marathon or ultramarathon plan and stick to it. I think the biggest worry here is you have to increase your mileage a fair bit over what you are used to so the major thing is INJURY PREVENTION. get good nutrition, don't focus on losing weight. You probably will lose a little without trying once the mileage builds, but your goal should be to maintain weight so you are properly recovering. focus on lots of sleep. and if you feel any minor discomforts in your joints, deal with them ASAP or they will turn into overuse injuries in a few weeks. This may involve stretching, foam rolling, eating/sleeping more, or being very conscious of correct running technique during your runs.
sounds fun. id say you are a little behind the 8 ball here, but not insurmountably so. a slightly aggressive goal is good! get after it!
So much naysayer.0 -
Thanks for all the advice everyone! I do realize I'll be cutting it close! I'm gunna take all that you guys have said into consideration!0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
That's a nice running platform!
It's a great watch. I use it for pretty much everything.
@EvgeniZyntx Any complaints about the watch. I've got 3 other Garmin watches but have been considering getting the Fenix 3.0 -
I didn't read all the comments. But I do know a bit about the subject....my boyfriend just started official training for a 100k in September. I HIGHLY recommend you find a reputable training schedule to follow. A lot of ultra training is very low HR running - and I know his runs are based on time, not mileage (at least right now). There is lots and lots of running. But there is a method to it (which days you have off, when you go long vs short, etc). If you are serious about training properly I'd recommend talking to someone who has competed multiple ones or is a running coach. Preventing injury has a lot to do with listening to your body, proper running form, shoes, your training plan, etc. You also need to learn a lot about nutrition and fueling your runs, blah, blah blah.....
Not sure if there are any time cut offs for this particular race - but if not....most athletic people I know who have been doing some running could inevitably finish a 30 miler. It would just be ugly without proper training and planning. Injury prevention would be the biggest concern in my opinion.
Best of luck!0 -
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Goodness there's a lot of negativity here.
I hope you enjoy your training and that big run. Sounds like an adventure and a challenge and I wish you the best of luck- don't give up!
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3dogsrunning wrote: »RUN_LIFT_EAT wrote: »Those kind of races have A LOT of walking strategically planned throughout the course. The elite racers will tell you that there's a ratio of walk:run that you'll want to focus on so you can make it to the finish. Good luck!
Haha! I didn't go from couch to 6 miles! Don't worry everyone, I'm going about this smart, and I won't stress my body out too much
The app has you put in what level of runner you are before you get started with the plan! And I've already been a runner, ("I've run a half before,") for years. And like runlifteat says, most people run/walk when it comes to intense trail races, which is my plan.
To be fair you gave no indication of how much running you are actually doing and several people asked what your average mileage is right now with no answer. "I've run a half before" is pretty vague. I could mean you ran one last week, or 10 years ago.
And to be fair she wasn't asking for advice about her average mileage or training so you didn't exactly need all the details of her schedule and past. She's excited and sharing her next big challenge which is awesome.
Again, good luck OP! I'm trying to plan a camping/hiking excursion for my summer trip. I could probably walk 30 miles haha!0 -
You can do it OP!0
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Hey everyone! Just wanted to give you all an update on my training!
I'm up to running 36 miles a week! I typically only run 3 days a week now. So I ran a 12 mile, a 6 mile & an 18 mile last week! And I'm averaging 10-11 minute miles!
I've been trying to choose routes that are on actual trails, or that have good elevation gain! And I've been running with my 2L hydration pack, so that I can get used to packing the weight! I'm feeling pretty confident so far!
I've discovered that I really need a caffeinated electrolyte drink around the halfway mark on my long runs. And I've also enjoyed using honey stinger gels every 3-4 miles!
The one struggle I'm having right now, is finding the right shoe/sock combo to prevent blisters... I bought some hokas a few months back, and some five toed socks to keep from blistering between my toes! But I'm getting terrible blisters on the outside of my big toe and on the inside ball of my foot, which makes me think I need a wider toe box, or maybe I need to start wearing compression socks to prevent swelling?!
The run date is August 5!0
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