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Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?
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I'm good with whatever you choose for whatever reasons as long as you don't come at me for my choices. Nothing irks me more than Freelee the banana *kitten* who makes uneducated criticisms on people for their life choices0
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@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
I don't include all creatures on the same plane. Please ask me what I think instead of assuming.
I find it really poor faith that you are attributing such an extreme position to me. Yes, I would kill another human in a situation where they were -- as a result of deliberate action -- threatening my life or the life of someone else. Many people would do this -- it has absolutely nothing to do with veganism. Self-defense is frequently seen as a legitimate justification of force against another human. But don't read more into that than what is there. I never said anything about prioritizing one human or a group of humans over another. And I never said I consider all creatures to be on the "same plane."
I think I'm done with this exchange.0 -
Abriellefulton wrote: »I'm good with whatever you choose for whatever reasons as long as you don't come at me for my choices. Nothing irks me more than Freelee the banana *kitten* who makes uneducated criticisms on people for their life choicesAbriellefulton wrote: »I'm good with whatever you choose for whatever reasons as long as you don't come at me for my choices. Nothing irks me more than Freelee the banana *kitten* who makes uneducated criticisms on people for their life choices
Definitely a meat eater0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
I don't include all creatures on the same plane. Please ask me what I think instead of assuming.
I find it really poor faith that you are attributing such an extreme position to me. Yes, I would kill another human in a situation where they were -- as a result of deliberate action -- threatening my life or the life of someone else. Many people would do this -- it has absolutely nothing to do with veganism. Self-defense is frequently seen as a legitimate justification of force against another human. But don't read more into that than what is there. I never said anything about prioritizing one human or a group of humans over another. And I never said I consider all creatures to be on the "same plane."
I think I'm done with this exchange.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We already discussed the superiority aspect of it.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I do have symptoms of IBS and I can say that there are more plant-based foods that give me issues than there are animal-based. Secondly, I do need to limit my carb consumption for medical reasons, which means I would probably need to eat excessive amounts of nuts, seeds, or oils to get in enough calories without eating a lot of carbs. I also mentioned earlier that based on my current vitamin b12 level, I would probably be fairly deficient if I was not eating meat. Now I know this is probably not the kind of proof you're looking for. But IMO it's enough evidence to suggest that a vegan diet would leave me deficient in one or more nutrients and/or make it extremely difficult to find enough foods to eat for digestive and medical reasons.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I think we're probably using the word "thrive" for different meanings. I think it is certainly possible that I could eat a vegan diet without causing major harm (though I'm not sure about that if it means for the rest of my life). But would my health be in the best state it can be if I did that? Or would the inclusion of animal products enhance my health a bit? For the latter question, my thinking is "yes".lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I didn't say that I thought everyone should eat meat. I realize that there are plenty of people who have turned to a vegan diet and have seen their health improve. But does that mean it's best for me? That's where my answer is "no". It's pretty clear to me from some of the posts even in this thread that what's best for one person is not necessarily best for someone else.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I'm not opposed to eating meat either, but this strikes me as obviously false. We are omnivores, so can get along on a wide variety of diets and don't need meat (especially with the ability to supplement B12). Many very healthy human diets have little to no meat.
I don't think the ethical issues can be dodged claiming that we need meat for health, AND I think that for the most part we'd likely be better off (and have some environmental benefits, which are benefits for humans) if we ate less meat.
Do I act accordingly? Not lately--I eat more animal products than I think I should, even though I am not ethically convinced that eating none is the right answer. Without a hard and fast line it's quite easy to just focus on what's easier or, of course, taste preference.
I'm talking about broad human populations. I think there are exceptions who do need meat to thrive, probably, and definitely people who need to use animals in other ways (such as the medical example posted upthread, and the benefits to medicine generally), but I don't think that on an individual basis absent a health issue omnivores like humans need any specific food in our diet, including meat. We need protein, of course, but there are other sources.
Again, I eat meat and am not ethically opposed to it, but for the vast majority I think the claim that you need it is a cop out, and as janejellyroll noted if that was the real reason people would eat much less. We eat more because it's tasty (and also a convenient source of protein).
What is that thinking based on though? Is there data to support that?
Health does make it more complicated. I'm just a layperson, but there are certainly people with IBS who thrive on a plant-based diet. That doesn't mean it would work for you though.
At the end of the day, we're arguing from a limited case if you're arguing that your particular health problems make it ethically appropriate for you to eat meat. What about people without health problems? If your health problems are a justification for meat consumption, does that mean you think other people should stop eating meat? If not, I'm not sure what relevance your health problems have to the conversation -- because it means you think there is another justification -- besides illness -- for using animals for food.
You said we were created to have superiority over them and that includes killing them if we think we have a "good reason." But if it isn't required for our health and wellbeing, do you consider killing for pleasure a sufficient reason?
Because for a lot of animal exploitation, the justification comes down to "I enjoy it."
A lot of the things we do for pleasure because they are good for us. I've thought about our efforts in Artificial Intelligence (AI) and we can make a robot intelligent enough. But how do we motivate it to do more than stare at it's navel, unless we hard-coded it to interact? I swear it is our pesky hormones, our serotonins, and our oxytoycins that drive us to do more than sit. There's hunger, satiety, romance, compassion, mothering, and altruism. None of those things are required, logically. But they move us.
I'm pro-compassion and pro-altruism. That's why I have decided to avoid unnecessary animal exploitation. When I "do the math," the pleasure it brings me isn't outweighed by what it costs others.
Selected others. You have no trouble exterminating vermin. I do prioritize people over other creatures, because I am a people.
I'm suggesting that the pleasure serves a purpose, in directing me to good health and possibly a better environmental fit. Ruminants serve an important purpose maintaining our forests and plains, and if I'm not going to chase and eat them, something has to.
We aren't perfectly logical machines. If we were, we might never escape the cradle. That's the point (rather obtuse I know) that I was trying to make. It's emotions, like altruism and pleasure, that drive us. It drives you to sympathy for all other creatures to the point that you have chosen not to eat them for pleasure.I have no concerns with pleasurable activities that don't harm others. The argument for veganism isn't the argument that we should all be perfectly logical machines.
I get no pleasure from pest control. It's for health reasons.
I have no issue with someone prioritizing humans over others. It's the prioritization of human pleasure over another individual's life and suffering that I've decided to reject.
For the most part, the ruminants Westerns eat are not part of the wild. They are bred specifically for slaughter and exist in much greater numbers than they ever would in the wild. I think it's valid to discuss whether it would be possible for every human on earth to forgo meat without causing problems with ruminant populations. But we can't, with the quantities of cows that we breed, act like this is about ruminant control (I'm assuming you also sometimes eat chicken and fish).
There are some people who only eat the wild animals that they (or those they know) hunt. That's a specific case that is worth talking about, but it's pretty far removed from the reality of how most people source their meat. And ruminant control has little to do with the decision to eat diary and eggs, which most non-vegans do to some extent.
Are you chasing the animals that you eat, sourcing them from wild populations? I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing and I'm not making assumptions. The "circle of life" case can be interesting, but it doesn't describe the reality of most non-vegan diets in North America.
Either way, if population control justifies the consumption of meat, we then should address the ethics of bringing animals into existence specifically for slaughter. This doesn't help us control populations.
This seems more an argument against current widespread practices used in the treatment of animals raised for food while alive than an argument against killing animals for food.
I'm saying that we should address the ethics of killing animals for food apart from the "we need to control ruminants" argument as the vast majority of animals killed for food in North America aren't part of a wild population that potentially needs to be controlled.
If we're going to talk about eating animals, let's talk about how most people actually do it. Then, if we want to address the exceptions (people who only eat meat from animals in wild populations), let's have that conversation.
But again, if we are only talking about where the majority of meat comes from then we aren't really talking about whether it is wrong to eat meat but about whether it is wrong to farm meat.
And earlier someone (I think you, but not sure) mentioned eggs. What harm is there in eating an egg, especially an unfertilized egg?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
We already discussed the superiority aspect of it.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I do have symptoms of IBS and I can say that there are more plant-based foods that give me issues than there are animal-based. Secondly, I do need to limit my carb consumption for medical reasons, which means I would probably need to eat excessive amounts of nuts, seeds, or oils to get in enough calories without eating a lot of carbs. I also mentioned earlier that based on my current vitamin b12 level, I would probably be fairly deficient if I was not eating meat. Now I know this is probably not the kind of proof you're looking for. But IMO it's enough evidence to suggest that a vegan diet would leave me deficient in one or more nutrients and/or make it extremely difficult to find enough foods to eat for digestive and medical reasons.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I think we're probably using the word "thrive" for different meanings. I think it is certainly possible that I could eat a vegan diet without causing major harm (though I'm not sure about that if it means for the rest of my life). But would my health be in the best state it can be if I did that? Or would the inclusion of animal products enhance my health a bit? For the latter question, my thinking is "yes".lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I didn't say that I thought everyone should eat meat. I realize that there are plenty of people who have turned to a vegan diet and have seen their health improve. But does that mean it's best for me? That's where my answer is "no". It's pretty clear to me from some of the posts even in this thread that what's best for one person is not necessarily best for someone else.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I'm not opposed to eating meat either, but this strikes me as obviously false. We are omnivores, so can get along on a wide variety of diets and don't need meat (especially with the ability to supplement B12). Many very healthy human diets have little to no meat.
I don't think the ethical issues can be dodged claiming that we need meat for health, AND I think that for the most part we'd likely be better off (and have some environmental benefits, which are benefits for humans) if we ate less meat.
Do I act accordingly? Not lately--I eat more animal products than I think I should, even though I am not ethically convinced that eating none is the right answer. Without a hard and fast line it's quite easy to just focus on what's easier or, of course, taste preference.
I'm talking about broad human populations. I think there are exceptions who do need meat to thrive, probably, and definitely people who need to use animals in other ways (such as the medical example posted upthread, and the benefits to medicine generally), but I don't think that on an individual basis absent a health issue omnivores like humans need any specific food in our diet, including meat. We need protein, of course, but there are other sources.
Again, I eat meat and am not ethically opposed to it, but for the vast majority I think the claim that you need it is a cop out, and as janejellyroll noted if that was the real reason people would eat much less. We eat more because it's tasty (and also a convenient source of protein).
What is that thinking based on though? Is there data to support that?
Health does make it more complicated. I'm just a layperson, but there are certainly people with IBS who thrive on a plant-based diet. That doesn't mean it would work for you though.
At the end of the day, we're arguing from a limited case if you're arguing that your particular health problems make it ethically appropriate for you to eat meat. What about people without health problems? If your health problems are a justification for meat consumption, does that mean you think other people should stop eating meat? If not, I'm not sure what relevance your health problems have to the conversation -- because it means you think there is another justification -- besides illness -- for using animals for food.
You said we were created to have superiority over them and that includes killing them if we think we have a "good reason." But if it isn't required for our health and wellbeing, do you consider killing for pleasure a sufficient reason?
Because for a lot of animal exploitation, the justification comes down to "I enjoy it."
A lot of the things we do for pleasure because they are good for us. I've thought about our efforts in Artificial Intelligence (AI) and we can make a robot intelligent enough. But how do we motivate it to do more than stare at it's navel, unless we hard-coded it to interact? I swear it is our pesky hormones, our serotonins, and our oxytoycins that drive us to do more than sit. There's hunger, satiety, romance, compassion, mothering, and altruism. None of those things are required, logically. But they move us.
I'm pro-compassion and pro-altruism. That's why I have decided to avoid unnecessary animal exploitation. When I "do the math," the pleasure it brings me isn't outweighed by what it costs others.
Selected others. You have no trouble exterminating vermin. I do prioritize people over other creatures, because I am a people.
Is that the only justification for prioritizing people over others? It doesn't seem like a very good one, to me, if asked to justify in. It's not much different than saying "a Canadian and a US citizen and you are stuck in a lifeboat and one has to be killed for food or you all die" and deciding that, well, of course I'll kill the person from the US, since I'm a Canadian. (Typical bloodthirsty Canadian!) (Also kidding, in case that is not obvious.)
I'd assert that humans are different by nature.
I'd also assert that if we met an alien race that was mentally basically like humans in self-awareness, intelligence, probably other things (this also raises the AI question), then that alien would be a person, just like humans, and entitled to the same protections.
And for similar reasons I'd draw distinctions between animals. Apes are awfully similar to humans in a lot of ways that seem important (yes, I'm dodging this somewhat).
Similarly, pigs strike me as different from chickens and chickens as different from shrimp or worms. And worms as quite different from potatoes (yes, potatoes are not animals -- moving into living creatures).
Where we draw lines is what we decide. Peter Singer has his arguments, for example (which I would argue with). You can focus on higher level mental capacities or awareness (and then the discussion becomes about what we know about animals). Or you can focus on ability to feel pain/fear of death or some such. Or you can focus on many other things, including limiting the reasons for killing (self protection, limiting the harm we cause).0 -
@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
Really? I think we all value some humans over others. A serial killer is unlikely to be given the same value by many as a law abiding citizen, for example.0 -
Veggie / vegan. I don't always have access to vegan food sadly so I do my best.0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
Really? I think we all value some humans over others. A serial killer is unlikely to be given the same value by many as a law abiding citizen, for example.
Let's take a plain old murderer, taking it down a notch. I think a good deal of cruelty and neglect that we see in our penal system comes from a deep down gut feeling that such monsters can't possibly be like the rest of us.
If it turns out that they are fully human, we might have to re-think how we treat offenders. It pays to take a good look, because there may be potential for reform or even better, prevention.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row_inmates
But if such people are simply monsters, then the "cure" continues to be extermination.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
Really? I think we all value some humans over others. A serial killer is unlikely to be given the same value by many as a law abiding citizen, for example.
Let's take a plain old murderer, taking it down a notch. I think a good deal of cruelty and neglect that we see in our penal system comes from a deep down gut feeling that such monsters can't possibly be like the rest of us.
If it turns out that they are fully human, we might have to re-think how we treat offenders. It pays to take a good look, because there may be potential for reform or even better, prevention.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row_inmates
But if such people are simply monsters, then the "cure" continues to be extermination.
That's different from saying you'd kill in self-defense.
For the record, the Catholic position on the death penalty is based on the idea that there's no need to execute any criminals, not that it's inherently wrong to do so even if we needed to (I mention this NOT because I want to debate Catholic teachings, but because it seems similar to the statement objected to here, that eating animals was okay when we needed to but might not be if we don't).0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
Really? I think we all value some humans over others. A serial killer is unlikely to be given the same value by many as a law abiding citizen, for example.
Let's take a plain old murderer, taking it down a notch. I think a good deal of cruelty and neglect that we see in our penal system comes from a deep down gut feeling that such monsters can't possibly be like the rest of us.
If it turns out that they are fully human, we might have to re-think how we treat offenders. It pays to take a good look, because there may be potential for reform or even better, prevention.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row_inmates
But if such people are simply monsters, then the "cure" continues to be extermination.
Not fully human?? Not sure what to do with that.
But let's take it down a notch further. Most parents value their offspring over other humans.0 -
This thread took a turn, lol.
From which is healthier (any of them provided adequate nutrient intake) to corporal punishment and murderers. (Which makes me wonder... are there any vegan serial-killers?)0 -
i'll eat pretty much anything, though I'm basically a dessertitarian0
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meganjcallaghan wrote: »i'll eat pretty much anything, though I'm basically a dessertitarian
Let's hear it for dessert!
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »@janejellyroll I prioritize humans over all other creatures. You include all creatures on the same plane, but will kill if threatened. This then includes humans. I shudder when one human (or group of people) is prioritized over another.
Really? I think we all value some humans over others. A serial killer is unlikely to be given the same value by many as a law abiding citizen, for example.
Let's take a plain old murderer, taking it down a notch. I think a good deal of cruelty and neglect that we see in our penal system comes from a deep down gut feeling that such monsters can't possibly be like the rest of us.
If it turns out that they are fully human, we might have to re-think how we treat offenders. It pays to take a good look, because there may be potential for reform or even better, prevention.
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_r_dow_lessons_from_death_row_inmates
But if such people are simply monsters, then the "cure" continues to be extermination.
That's different from saying you'd kill in self-defense.
For the record, the Catholic position on the death penalty is based on the idea that there's no need to execute any criminals, not that it's inherently wrong to do so even if we needed to (I mention this NOT because I want to debate Catholic teachings, but because it seems similar to the statement objected to here, that eating animals was okay when we needed to but might not be if we don't).
It's treating all creatures as being equal in value when we obviously treat those who we consider like ourselves better than the "others".
I do think ethical veganism is part of the progressive extension of our altruism and empathy which at it's base is extending empathy to one's direct offspring (perhaps a bit of genetic preservation going on there), then to one's tribe, a nation, and then all of humanity. The next extension is expanding altruism and empathy to all animals, then then perhaps all creatures including the ugly wiggly ones.
The "others" are disappearing and it is all becoming "us".
The civilized execution of murderers and serial killers is a legal way of exterminating a danger to ourselves, society defending itself against evil "others". I think we justify these sorts of killings by characterizing these people as being somehow different than our civilized selves. "Others", less than human.0 -
"Healthy" if it means living longest. The Japanese diet of eating alot of fish live the longest0
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Pescetarian since 2002 because I dislike most meat (the only kind I miss is the really fatty kind--salami, sausage, bacon...). I can have a varied, healthy plant-heavy diet or a carb and cheese fest. Obviously I try for the former, but sometimes I slide into the latter and have to use MFP and a good running schedule to pull myself out again
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hockeysniper8 wrote: »"Healthy" if it means living longest. The Japanese diet of eating alot of fish live the longest
Inuit eat a lot of fish, probably more than the Japanese per capita.0 -
The National Geographic ran an article on centenarians. There are pockets. There's a pocket of Sicilians who eat off the land (Mediterranean), vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists, and Okinawans (Japanese) who eat a lot of fish, rice and vegetables and don't eat until stuffed.
Maybe it's diet. Maybe it's something else.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/
http://www.okicent.org
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