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Do HRMs on activity trackers really increase accuracy of CO estimates?
Replies
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
My question is more related to whether or not HRMs offer a greater benefit than trackers without HRMs. In @senecarr 's example it seems that they HRM might be a possible cause of the anomaly he experienced. However, it makes sense that a lot of those types of issues could be corrected by improved code development and maybe that has already been accomplished in some models.ParadiseLost91 wrote: »Who cares if it's 20 calories off once in a while? I wear my FitBit Charge HR daily and find it a big help in my weight loss.
I eat my exercise calories (measured by FitBit) because I'm at net 1200 calories, and I am not gaining weight, actually losing it quite fast.
It's a huge motivation to have a fitness tracker for many people, because you can see how well you did, and you can see a difference between workouts where you didn't push yourself, and workouts where you did.
If you plot one hour of spinning into MFP, it will always give you the same calories. If you use FitBit, you will get more calories the harder you worked.
So the technology might not be perfect, maybe it's 5 or 20 calories off. Why is that so important? Isn't it better that having a HR wrist band makes you motivated to push yourself?
As I already said mine doesn't feel inaccurate at all.
I also have a minor secondary concern in that this information is recorded all day, whenever wearing the device and reported to the company's data stores. It becomes a product of the company and a sort of surveillance for which we, the users, volunteer. It seems trivial, I know, but if the one's federal government wanted to strap a heart monitor on you, I think it would be met with a lot of resistance.
Wait, did I just hijack my own thread?
I think you did, but it's worth it IMO. The concern is more than minor to me given the recent FBI vs Apple case.
Why, tho?
Are you concerned that the state saw you had a HR increase on Tuesday at 9:30?
And if so, why are you tracking the food you eat here? Do you think your HR somehow gives the state more info that what (and sometimes where) you eat? How about your phone pinging those cell towers all the time you update your data?
HR data shouldn't be of particular concern by its lonesome.
What and where I eat wouldn't tell anyone when I was sleeping. Or whether I was other than calm at a particular moment. What and where I eat would not catch me in a lie since it's pretty common for me to use entries that are only approximates of what I actually did eat and only occasionally are from the place I actually ate and even more rarely are made when I actually ate. Harder to state that I was sleeping when the HRM records a steady HR of 100+, or that I was not sleeping with a HR of 40, or that I was perfectly calm when my HR suddenly spikes.
None of which really applies to me right now because I'm not wearing my HRM 24/7, but there are people who do and I could see the value of doing so in the future.
The issue is that if the FBI gain access to one phone, precedent is set - and you'll note the request does not limit the data they will have access to on the phone. So they would have all of it. Precedent makes it potentially easier for the FBI and other government agencies to gain access to other phones. Not good but not yet enough to make me stop using my phone to record data.
However, we've already made the first steps toward a single payer, government run health insurance system. Move further in that direction, and suddenly the government has a good reason to want to access Joe Blow's phone for all that lovely health information it's starting to store.
But, as I said, I currently do use my HRM and record to my phone. Because we're not there yet and may never be. It's something to keep a weather eye on for now. And if perchance we do get close to that scenario, it wouldn't be 'oh, I'm going to stop using my HRM with my phone', it would be 'I'm not going to have a cell phone or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.
ETA: That should read 'I'm not going to have a cell phone for anything other than calls or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
My question is more related to whether or not HRMs offer a greater benefit than trackers without HRMs. In @senecarr 's example it seems that they HRM might be a possible cause of the anomaly he experienced. However, it makes sense that a lot of those types of issues could be corrected by improved code development and maybe that has already been accomplished in some models.ParadiseLost91 wrote: »Who cares if it's 20 calories off once in a while? I wear my FitBit Charge HR daily and find it a big help in my weight loss.
I eat my exercise calories (measured by FitBit) because I'm at net 1200 calories, and I am not gaining weight, actually losing it quite fast.
It's a huge motivation to have a fitness tracker for many people, because you can see how well you did, and you can see a difference between workouts where you didn't push yourself, and workouts where you did.
If you plot one hour of spinning into MFP, it will always give you the same calories. If you use FitBit, you will get more calories the harder you worked.
So the technology might not be perfect, maybe it's 5 or 20 calories off. Why is that so important? Isn't it better that having a HR wrist band makes you motivated to push yourself?
As I already said mine doesn't feel inaccurate at all.
I also have a minor secondary concern in that this information is recorded all day, whenever wearing the device and reported to the company's data stores. It becomes a product of the company and a sort of surveillance for which we, the users, volunteer. It seems trivial, I know, but if the one's federal government wanted to strap a heart monitor on you, I think it would be met with a lot of resistance.
Wait, did I just hijack my own thread?
I think you did, but it's worth it IMO. The concern is more than minor to me given the recent FBI vs Apple case.
Why, tho?
Are you concerned that the state saw you had a HR increase on Tuesday at 9:30?
And if so, why are you tracking the food you eat here? Do you think your HR somehow gives the state more info that what (and sometimes where) you eat? How about your phone pinging those cell towers all the time you update your data?
HR data shouldn't be of particular concern by its lonesome.
What and where I eat wouldn't tell anyone when I was sleeping. Or whether I was other than calm at a particular moment. What and where I eat would not catch me in a lie since it's pretty common for me to use entries that are only approximates of what I actually did eat and only occasionally are from the place I actually ate and even more rarely are made when I actually ate. Harder to state that I was sleeping when the HRM records a steady HR of 100+, or that I was not sleeping with a HR of 40, or that I was perfectly calm when my HR suddenly spikes.
None of which really applies to me right now because I'm not wearing my HRM 24/7, but there are people who do and I could see the value of doing so in the future.
The issue is that if the FBI gain access to one phone, precedent is set - and you'll note the request does not limit the data they will have access to on the phone. So they would have all of it. Precedent makes it potentially easier for the FBI and other government agencies to gain access to other phones. Not good but not yet enough to make me stop using my phone to record data.
However, we've already made the first steps toward a single payer, government run health insurance system. Move further in that direction, and suddenly the government has a good reason to want to access Joe Blow's phone for all that lovely health information it's starting to store.
But, as I said, I currently do use my HRM and record to my phone. Because we're not there yet and may never be. It's something to keep a weather eye on for now. And if perchance we do get close to that scenario, it wouldn't be 'oh, I'm going to stop using my HRM with my phone', it would be 'I'm not going to have a cell phone or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.
ETA: That should read 'I'm not going to have a cell phone for anything other than calls or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.
First off, the FBI has been using phone data for years (even apple has given them data in the past, the current issue was about forcing apple to develop software to break there latest encryption) - second, HR data has never been used in a coup of law. Nor would it be reasonably admissible (both in the cadre of self-inculpation limitations and a causal state between an observation and a mental state) - a raised HR isn't directly related to being excited - sex, pooping or exercise will raise your HR.
Europe has (we can talk about the differences ...) pretty much a single payer system or variants thereof per country and does not collect/nor is interested in HR data per patient - that is and remains with the very tight set of laws governing restricted access. The US does have problems with HIPAA and does need to tighten access to medical data - (insurers certainly should not get it to validate medical decisions made between doctors and physicians).
I still fail to see the need for concern in the current environment for HR data. Maybe someday in a world of unlimited data storage where HR data transmission to mayors becomes obligatory. But I'm not seeing that, I think it is a vast reach.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
My question is more related to whether or not HRMs offer a greater benefit than trackers without HRMs. In @senecarr 's example it seems that they HRM might be a possible cause of the anomaly he experienced. However, it makes sense that a lot of those types of issues could be corrected by improved code development and maybe that has already been accomplished in some models.ParadiseLost91 wrote: »Who cares if it's 20 calories off once in a while? I wear my FitBit Charge HR daily and find it a big help in my weight loss.
I eat my exercise calories (measured by FitBit) because I'm at net 1200 calories, and I am not gaining weight, actually losing it quite fast.
It's a huge motivation to have a fitness tracker for many people, because you can see how well you did, and you can see a difference between workouts where you didn't push yourself, and workouts where you did.
If you plot one hour of spinning into MFP, it will always give you the same calories. If you use FitBit, you will get more calories the harder you worked.
So the technology might not be perfect, maybe it's 5 or 20 calories off. Why is that so important? Isn't it better that having a HR wrist band makes you motivated to push yourself?
As I already said mine doesn't feel inaccurate at all.
I also have a minor secondary concern in that this information is recorded all day, whenever wearing the device and reported to the company's data stores. It becomes a product of the company and a sort of surveillance for which we, the users, volunteer. It seems trivial, I know, but if the one's federal government wanted to strap a heart monitor on you, I think it would be met with a lot of resistance.
Wait, did I just hijack my own thread?
I think you did, but it's worth it IMO. The concern is more than minor to me given the recent FBI vs Apple case.
Why, tho?
Are you concerned that the state saw you had a HR increase on Tuesday at 9:30?
And if so, why are you tracking the food you eat here? Do you think your HR somehow gives the state more info that what (and sometimes where) you eat? How about your phone pinging those cell towers all the time you update your data?
HR data shouldn't be of particular concern by its lonesome.
What and where I eat wouldn't tell anyone when I was sleeping. Or whether I was other than calm at a particular moment. What and where I eat would not catch me in a lie since it's pretty common for me to use entries that are only approximates of what I actually did eat and only occasionally are from the place I actually ate and even more rarely are made when I actually ate. Harder to state that I was sleeping when the HRM records a steady HR of 100+, or that I was not sleeping with a HR of 40, or that I was perfectly calm when my HR suddenly spikes.
None of which really applies to me right now because I'm not wearing my HRM 24/7, but there are people who do and I could see the value of doing so in the future.
The issue is that if the FBI gain access to one phone, precedent is set - and you'll note the request does not limit the data they will have access to on the phone. So they would have all of it. Precedent makes it potentially easier for the FBI and other government agencies to gain access to other phones. Not good but not yet enough to make me stop using my phone to record data.
However, we've already made the first steps toward a single payer, government run health insurance system. Move further in that direction, and suddenly the government has a good reason to want to access Joe Blow's phone for all that lovely health information it's starting to store.
But, as I said, I currently do use my HRM and record to my phone. Because we're not there yet and may never be. It's something to keep a weather eye on for now. And if perchance we do get close to that scenario, it wouldn't be 'oh, I'm going to stop using my HRM with my phone', it would be 'I'm not going to have a cell phone or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.
ETA: That should read 'I'm not going to have a cell phone for anything other than calls or record health data to anything but my own closed system'.
First off, the FBI has been using phone data for years (even apple has given them data in the past, the current issue was about forcing apple to develop software to break there latest encryption) - second, HR data has never been used in a coup of law. Nor would it be reasonably admissible (both in the cadre of self-inculpation limitations and a causal state between an observation and a mental state) - a raised HR isn't directly related to being excited - sex, pooping or exercise will raise your HR.
Europe has (we can talk about the differences ...) pretty much a single payer system or variants thereof per country and does not collect/nor is interested in HR data per patient - that is and remains with the very tight set of laws governing restricted access. The US does have problems with HIPAA and does need to tighten access to medical data - (insurers certainly should not get it to validate medical decisions made between doctors and physicians).
I still fail to see the need for concern in the current environment for HR data. Maybe someday in a world of unlimited data storage where HR data transmission to mayors becomes obligatory. But I'm not seeing that, I think it is a vast reach.
I'd actually say that while the spirit of the law and author's intent would be that HR data would be self-incrimination, I don't think modern courts would find it so, as modern courts seem fairly unanimous that your own bodily fluids being taken are not self-incrimination. Though maybe I really just want to see the court case that has "I know what the HR reading says your honor, but I swear I was in a bathroom at the time. Look, my fiber for the 3 days prior was at least 60 grams a day!"0 -
ParadiseLost91 wrote: »Who cares if it's 20 calories off once in a while? I wear my FitBit Charge HR daily and find it a big help in my weight loss.
I eat my exercise calories (measured by FitBit) because I'm at net 1200 calories, and I am not gaining weight, actually losing it quite fast.
It's a huge motivation to have a fitness tracker for many people, because you can see how well you did, and you can see a difference between workouts where you didn't push yourself, and workouts where you did.
If you plot one hour of spinning into MFP, it will always give you the same calories. If you use FitBit, you will get more calories the harder you worked.
So the technology might not be perfect, maybe it's 5 or 20 calories off. Why is that so important? Isn't it better that having a HR wrist band makes you motivated to push yourself?
As I already said mine doesn't feel inaccurate at all.
How are you arriving at 5 or 20 calories off? How does a device "feel" inaccurate?0 -
mattyc772014 wrote: »@robertw486 My elliptical came with a non coded Polar chest HRM that syncs with it. I dont think I can sync a different device with my elliptical unless its non coded. Technically I could use the chest strap with another machine lets say at the gym, but because it is non coded I will get interference from the other machines. Must be manufacturer programmed on a 2Ghz frequency which I think are the majority of electronics. Hence the delayed syncing I would imagine.
Interesting. My elliptical pairs with my chest strap, which I'm fairly certain is an older Polar model with Trek branding on it. But my (older) Precor machine pairs very quickly. Is it possible you just don't have good contact or something delaying your chest strap pairing?ParadiseLost91 wrote: »Who cares if it's 20 calories off once in a while? I wear my FitBit Charge HR daily and find it a big help in my weight loss.
I eat my exercise calories (measured by FitBit) because I'm at net 1200 calories, and I am not gaining weight, actually losing it quite fast.
It's a huge motivation to have a fitness tracker for many people, because you can see how well you did, and you can see a difference between workouts where you didn't push yourself, and workouts where you did.
If you plot one hour of spinning into MFP, it will always give you the same calories. If you use FitBit, you will get more calories the harder you worked.
So the technology might not be perfect, maybe it's 5 or 20 calories off. Why is that so important? Isn't it better that having a HR wrist band makes you motivated to push yourself?
As I already said mine doesn't feel inaccurate at all.
For me, calorie burn is a greater concern due to my inconsistency and level of training. I suspect even my elliptical and more precise devices have some error, but the greater the error the more it can impact my goals. When I have time and motivation it's not uncommon for me to burn 20-30,000 exercise calories in a month. Even a small percentage of that adds up to less weight control and/or improper refueling.The_Enginerd wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »How do you overcome the efficiency conversion estimate between power and metabolic calories? That is certainly neither constant nor well-calculated.
I think that would be the hardest one to try to determine. Short of lab gas exchange testing it would all be just a guess based on absolute VO2 vs power estimations. But I would think that if the HRM device were smart enough to learn from known absolute power measures, you could at least determine (as a possible example) that efficiency on the bike was higher or lower than efficiency running. Being that most studies seem to mostly agree on O2 use efficiency, that could be a baseline for the models.
As an example, I've seen studies where the O2 requirement for running vs biking at a setpoint wattage, the running shows higher O2 demand. This exposes a "flaw" where net power vs gross power is somewhat skewed, and that even a power measure we can assume absolute is not exacting.
I would think that part of any estimations would be a slippery slope either way, but there may be sufficient information short of the lab testing to go with averages per any given fitness level, age, etc.
Do you remember what the difference was in conversion efficiency between the two types of exercise? It would make sense this isn't a constant, and probably more efficient on a bike, as some energy in running is spent just holding your weight that requires muscle force and calories but doesn't result in any work being done.
edit: and in running, the vertical oscillations are a net zero amount of work being done, but also require muscle force and calories.
I think I've got a bookmark or two I'll try to dig up. Most deal with O2 consumption assumed vs actual, and may be just showing error in calculation on standard methods.
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