Where can I find some information on breaking through plateauing
Replies
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midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
If I went back and spent the time to screen shot and post diaries, scale logs, and Fitbit logs from every day during that time, would you believe it or would you argue that I didn't log correctly?
What are are saying I'm inferring?0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
If I went back and spent the time to screen shot and post diaries, scale logs, and Fitbit logs from every day during that time, would you believe it or would you argue that I didn't log correctly?
What are are saying I'm inferring?
that is what I asked for a while ago...now if you didn't log using a food scale and choosing correct entries I would have to point it out of course but that only goes so far....0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
If I went back and spent the time to screen shot and post diaries, scale logs, and Fitbit logs from every day during that time, would you believe it or would you argue that I didn't log correctly?
What are are saying I'm inferring?
that is what I asked for a while ago...now if you didn't log using a food scale and choosing correct entries I would have to point it out of course but that only goes so far....
I pointed out a long time ago that I had that and that I was using a food scale and a Fitbit.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
If I went back and spent the time to screen shot and post diaries, scale logs, and Fitbit logs from every day during that time, would you believe it or would you argue that I didn't log correctly?
What are are saying I'm inferring?
that is what I asked for a while ago...now if you didn't log using a food scale and choosing correct entries I would have to point it out of course but that only goes so far....
I pointed out a long time ago that I had that and that I was using a food scale and a Fitbit.
and when I asked for proof it wasn't forth coming...and I won't hold my breath this time either.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »StealthHealth wrote: »@midwesterner85 It must have taken a long time to log the 10 to 11k! I'm currently on 3250 cals but the logging takes significantly longer than when I'm on a deficit (partially because there is more food to log but partially because there is a lot more variety to my food intake when bulking).
Not really. I ate a lot of high calorie food - logging a pizza with over 2K calories, for example, takes very little time. I would log things by the package or with higher quantities. It takes almost as long to log 12 donuts as it does to log 1 donut, for example.midwesterner85 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Are you tracking every bite and drop that you consume? Weighing food?
Are you tracking calorie expenditure? How? With an HRM? Are you eating back exercise calories?
What is your activity level set to? Have you re-calculated calorie needs as you lost weight?
Assuming that you are tracking calories in and calories out accurately and that you are at the correct calorie level on MFP and have been for 6 months, and you still are hovering around the same weight on the scale, then you might actually be in a plateau. Some don't believe it is possible, but I've been there myself.
The next step is to cut calories further. If you still are not losing after a few weeks, then try adding calories (to what you think would be a surplus -in my case during my first long plateau, I went with a 7,500+ calorie surplus every other day for about 6 weeks - if you do that and don't gain any weight still, then you can be sure you are really in a plateau.
OK, so let's say you've made it this far and you have confirmed without a doubt that you are in a plateau. Here is the bad news: There probably isn't anything you can do to force it to stop. Once, I was able to end a plateau by eating nothing but protein powder for 10 days. Other times, not so much. The good news is that plateaus end in a "whoosh" if you don't destroy your total deficit. So let's say your plateau lasts for 9 months and you should have lost 18 lbs. during that time (about 1/2 lb. / week after the surplus days) - whenever the plateau ends, you will have a "whoosh" where you will lose an incredible amount of weight (18 lbs.) over about a week or less.
Can you clarify please. Did you eat over 7,500 calories over maintenance every 2nd day for 6 weeks and didn't gain any weight? I'm not sure if I'm reading this right..
During part of that time, yes. The first 4 weeks were more like 8K-9K calories over maintenance, then dropped off to end the 6 weeks at only 3K over maintenance every other day (with 5K and 6K in between... so average out to 7.5K). I did not gain weight during that time. Prior to that, for 2 months, I had not lost any weight despite eating at a 500 calorie daily deficit.
This is exactly what a plateau looks like - weight does not change (aside from ups and downs from water weight) no matter how much or how little one consumes or expends. The term "plateau" is often used incorrectly. If someone is eating at maintenance (whether they know it or if they just are not logging well enough to know it) and not losing weight, that is not really a plateau. Real plateaus are rare, but some of us actually encounter them. They are incredibly frustrating, to the point that it can lead people to completely give up. After all, if I can't lose weight anyway, I may as well eat as much as I want.
I still am very dubious of this...to the point where I don't believe it at all.
Even in regular life when people are losing and hit a "stall" it's all due to not logging correctly or adaptive thermogenisis. Metabolic changes happen to us all but to the point where you can eat on average 7500 calories over maintenance for 6 weeks and not gain...
I remember watching my skinny 16 yo brother try to gain...for about 4 weeks he ate my parents out of house and home...all the while lifting, running, biking, swimming etc...he eventually gained using all the food and extra protein powder shakes because he just couldn't eat enough food to get there with all his activity...
again not really a plateau tho...
I say anyone who thinks they are in a plateau is in one of two camps...eating more than they think or not eating as much as they think for their activity...
out bodies (unless there is a medical issue) just doesn't work that way...it really is a machine.
Just because you don't understand it and have never experienced it yourself doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen.
I understand what you are saying...and I've seen (as I said above my brother go through not being able to gain) but there is always an reason...not really getting in the calories you think you are or being active enough that you are burning more than you think ....or weight gain/loss not being linear and like in weight loss "Woosh" there also can be weight gain "bams"
I firmly believe that any plateau is due to not logging properly (either in or out) or over/under estimating CICO equation...all the science backs that up...
albeit medical conditions throw a wrench into the situation...however the OP doesn't have a "known" medical condition....so that is a moot point and those with medical conditions causing issues shouldn't give their experience as what to do as there are things in their experience that cannot be replicated in others due to medical conditions.
The bolded part is a plateau. It is when you eat at a surplus or deficit for a long period of time and the change resulting from that doesn't happen for a very long time. In my case, the plateau lasted more than 5 months and I had a "whoosh" at the end. The "whoosh" would have been larger if I hadn't eaten so much during those 6 weeks. My point is that, during a plateau, eating at a deficit or eating at a surplus will not cause losses or gains for a long time. Those gains/losses don't happen for months during a plateau.
again if it lasts longer than 4-6 weeks I go back to inaccurate logging (under/over esitimating CICO equation)
plateaus are from eating at maintenance for a variety of reasons.
What do you call it when the plateau ends and someone loses 8 lbs. in 3 days without any changes within the 4-6 week range as far as CICO?
is this with or without medical conditions in the mix?
I've seen fighters drop 15lbs in 72 hours...I've seen me drop 1lb a day for 7 days...but now that I am a bit more educated I know why.
Which medical condition would cause normal weight loss, then plateaus that last for months as described, then a whoosh, then back to normal weight loss again?
I ask if there was a medical condition in the mix....I suspect that there is....otherwise the answer would have been no. Not a question back.
The answer is that I have no medical condition that has been shown to cause what I experienced. Is there any medical condition at all that would?
It's really easy when someone has a medical issue (especially when you don't understand that issue) and some other experience you don't understand to just write it off and say "No, it isn't possible for anybody else, but it must just be that your experience is attributed to a disease of some sort... even though there is no evidence to show that such a disease would cause such symptoms."
If you are going to blame a medical condition, at least put some effort into understanding that condition. Don't just take that approach because it is an easy excuse.
So yes you have a medical condition.
That there is a few that can cause issues with weight gain and loss.
Weight loss can become an issue for those with PCOS and low Thyroid production.
Weight Gain can become an issue for those with high Thyroid production, adrenal gland issues, food allergies among other things.
But again...I suspect the issue that anyone in a weigh plateau is due to poor logging and under/over estimating CI and CO...
Now we can go back and forth on this...but you have not presented any proof...scientific or otherwise to support your claim. Just a story on a forum on the internet.
I for one do not believe it to be factual...are you a liar...no I think you actual believe what you posted. However scientifically (as we know it now) what you are describing is not possible even with medical conditions.
And with that I will bid you adieu as this is moot due to lack of evidence presented.
You have no idea how much I would like for you to be right that this hadn't happened to me. You clearly have no idea how frustrating it is to put effort into losing weight and then to see no results for months on end. Add that there are people like you who can't accept they don't understand it, so just make the lazy conclusion that I'm untruthful.
I'm not sure what kind of proof you are seeking, but there is probably nothing that would satisfy you. You are in denial of something that doesn't fit with what you understand. There are 3 paths you can take: Argue it isn't true, accept that there are things you don't understand, or seek to increase your own knowledge (an extension of the second option). You are choosing the first option, which is not helpful at all to users experiencing real plateaus.
I asked for information proving your evidence you produced none. No logs here or scanned or elsewhere that you linked in, no blog created during that period nada...nothing but a story in weight loss forums.
I did seek to increase my knowledge and understanding and did a number of searches online, talked to family members who are doctors etc because I was perplexed and nada...out of 5 doctors I spoke to, 2 with over 40 years each of experience in active practice...none have seen anything of the sort...and do not recall seeing anything in any medical journal to support your claim.
So perhaps if you want to claim something so out of the ordinary and out of the realm of science as it's known now have your proof at hand...not just unsupported claims.
There were threads created during some of those plateaus. They got out of hand and were deleted. Just because the people you talked to don't understand it either doesn't mean it didn't or can't happen. Do you have proof that I'm lying?
I never said you were lying...I actually said you believe what you are writing and wouldn't call you a liar due to the fact that you apparently really believe it.
I will again chalk it up to mislogging and under/over estimating CICO equation.
Until such time as I can read a medical journal or study showing me that this can happen I will be totally dubious to any claims.
I didn't change anything about logging methods before, during, or afterwards. Losing 8 lbs. in a few days would have required a very noticeable error in logging. Going from consistent losses for months to no losses for several months would have required a persistent change in logging. Eating entire pizzas, family size bags of potato chips, dozens of donuts, etc. without gaining would have required a significant amount of un-logged exercise based on your theory. I suppose it is possible that I got up and sleep-ran all night... except I wore my Fitbit while sleeping and would have noticed something like that, so that isn't it.
I pointed out earlier why no research has been done or will probably ever be done to study real plateaus. I would like there to be, but I'm realistic about the cost:benefit ratio involved. It doesn't really matter whether you understand it or not, I just would like for you to at least acknowledge that there are things you do not understand and that not everyone experiencing a plateau is logging incorrectly (which is not really a plateau anyway).
I fully acknowledge there are things in life I don't understand...but I will not agree that plateau's are anything but what is scientifically proven.
Logging issue and adaptive thermogenisis.
BTW I have lost 7lbs in about 3-4days as well...low carb diet.
Have you ever lost 8 lbs. in 3-4 days with no changes to explain it?
There are always changes...nobody can say day after day is the same...cortisol levels could have dropped there was a woosh.
But to this...you will not convince me your story is relevant to the OP and you will not convince me that what you described can happen without some sort of proof, which you admit is not available at all period.
So all this going back and forth is just that back and forth. I will no longer respond to this line of discussion until proof is provided. You have been here long enough to know that when you assert something that is out of the norm the duty is on the claimant to provide proof...you have none.
Hence the back and forth. YOu are sure you are right (or are trolling cause you are bored), I have science telling me you aren't and without science to prove yourself right...we are done.
As I said, I have food logs, Fitbit logs, and scale logs all right here on MFP. If you are going to argue I didn't really eat what I logged or didn't exercise what Fitbit shows or didn't weigh what the scale said, then I would ask you for proof. I think you just don't understand the science... like I said earlier, even I don't understand the scientific explanation. It is a complicated issue, no doubt. I know what happened and have the food/exercise/scale logs and even the memory. I have no benefit to fabricate my experience - it would be more advantageous to me if this had not happened. Since you can't believe there is something you don't understand (not just "in life" but as far as weight loss goes), we will just have to agree to disagree about my experience.
Having said that, please don't berate those who are experiencing real plateaus. Once you get past the things you do understand (weighing food, for example), don't then claim they are being untruthful. Not only is that not helpful, it is often hurtful. Instead, just acknowledge you've offered as much help as you are able and leave it at that.
But you won't provide them....so it's moot. No proof.
and don't assume or infer please it belittles those you are inferring about and assuming things about.
If I went back and spent the time to screen shot and post diaries, scale logs, and Fitbit logs from every day during that time, would you believe it or would you argue that I didn't log correctly?
What are are saying I'm inferring?
that is what I asked for a while ago...now if you didn't log using a food scale and choosing correct entries I would have to point it out of course but that only goes so far....
I pointed out a long time ago that I had that and that I was using a food scale and a Fitbit.
and when I asked for proof it wasn't forth coming...and I won't hold my breath this time either.
Early on in this thread, I mentioned logging. There was even a discussion about how much time it took to log food. It was always about logging calories.
If I go through and spend the enormous effort to screen shot every single day for months, will you acknowledge you are wrong and stop berating people who are in a plateau? If not, then I'm not going to waste the effort.1 -
Look up Lyle McDonalds Woosh theory. It happens to me every time I cut. I stall for up to six weeks then I drop all the weight I was expecting suddenly.
Apperntly the fat cells release the fat then replace with water, therefore weighing and looking the same, then at some point release that too.
I'm too meticulous for my stalls to be about anything else than some kind of inflammation or water retention. I constantly exercise so it's not water repair weight.0
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