How much protein is too much?
Replies
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
Logically speaking I do think it's reasonable to assume that AT SOME POINT there might be a dangerously high level of protein we could consume, but then you'd have to question whether or not a diet like that is sustainable to begin with or whether someone could possibly stomach that much protein for a prolonged period.
I'm not personally concerned with eating in the neighborhood of 1g/lb bodyweight in protein from a safety standpoint.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
Okay, but why is that relevant? I'll never eat 5g/kg and I know of no one suggesting it. Perhaps there is a dosage that would be harmful at some point. But then again, there's a dosage of most everything that is harmful at some point. Perhaps you're missing the point regarding crafting a diet that actually works?
Edit: SideSteel beat me to most of this. He's going to be more knowledgable than I am.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
So your concern is based on teh feelz?0 -
ShodanPrime wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
So your concern is based on teh feelz?
If someone wants to eat that much protein or doesn't realize how much that really is (which was the case in the particular case I mentioned), it astounds me to think that anyone could have such confidence to say that there's no harm in doing so. But, maybe that's just me. If one wants to conclude that because a study hasn't been done on an exceptionally high intake then it must be safe, then I can't argue with that, although it makes no sense to me. All about the proof, I guess.
On the other hand, I understand and agree with SideSteel's post.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.0 -
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
OP is eating "above" 56 grams of protein and you think "most of us" would say she's not utilizing all of her protein? Have you read anything in this thread?0 -
I eat about 90g per day and more on workout days. I can't imagine eating less than 75.0
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But can the body actually utilize anything more than 1g/lb LBM for someone who's not on a significant cut or doing significant strenuous training? (Note that I'm not asking whether a slightly higher intake is dangerous, but rather will it be utilized instead of being excreted)?sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
OP is eating "above" 56 grams of protein and you think "most of us" would say she's not utilizing all of her protein? Have you read anything in this thread?0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
But can the body actually utilize anything more than 1g/lb LBM for someone who's not on a significant cut or doing significant strenuous training? (Note that I'm not asking whether a slightly higher intake is dangerous, but rather will it be utilized instead of being excreted)?sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
OP is eating "above" 56 grams of protein and you think "most of us" would say she's not utilizing all of her protein? Have you read anything in this thread?
Please read the articles and studies linked in this thread. 56 grams was based on RDA and at least one study I linked suggested more than that for the general population. The other studies are all discussing optimal intake (i.e. actual use) of protein.
You also aren't seriously suggesting that the OP, who's profile lists her as overweight, is anywhere near 56 pounds (to make your statement about 1g/pound LBM make sense)? Double that or triple that even then guesstimate LBM? There just isn't much information.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
But can the body actually utilize anything more than 1g/lb LBM for someone who's not on a significant cut or doing significant strenuous training? (Note that I'm not asking whether a slightly higher intake is dangerous, but rather will it be utilized instead of being excreted)?sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
OP is eating "above" 56 grams of protein and you think "most of us" would say she's not utilizing all of her protein? Have you read anything in this thread?
Not sure why it matters..,
It isn't harmful
http://www.simplyshredded.com/does-excess-protein-get-stored-as-fat.html
Conclusions
So, while we do biochemically possess the pathways needed to convert amino acids to fatty acids, the chances of that ever happening to a significant degree during slightly higher protein intakes, even in the face of adequate energy and carbohydrates, are irrelevant given what we know about the extreme measures that need to be surpassed in order for any appreciable fat gain from protein to take place. Indeed, overeating by ~1,000kcals/day for 8 weeks in combination with higher protein intakes did not amount to any additional gains in body fat compared to a lower protein, hypercaloric diet. Rather, excess protein in the face of overfeeding actually contributed to gains in lean body mass (be that what it may); quite the contrary to what textbooks and classrooms teach. In reality, the chances that excess protein contributes to body fat stores are insignificant, and arguably physically impossible under normal and/or even slightly hypercaloric conditions that most people/athletes face on a daily basis.
Only until theoretical extremes are achieved, either for protein intake or calories or both, will there be any significant contributions to body fat from excess protein intake.0 -
This is really still going? lol...1
-
I was referring to the 99g she mentioned. Also, I didn't realize that she's overweight.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
But can the body actually utilize anything more than 1g/lb LBM for someone who's not on a significant cut or doing significant strenuous training? (Note that I'm not asking whether a slightly higher intake is dangerous, but rather will it be utilized instead of being excreted)?sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Agreed. I think most of us would say that while the OP may not be utilizing all of the protein she's taking in, it's not too much unless she already has some form of kidney impairment.Wetcoaster wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
It concerns me when some say that it's not possible to overdo protein. Just because a study hasn't been done to test a protein intake at a certain level doesn't mean that it's safe.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
One situation I'm thinking of is a small person (under 90 lbs) eating 1500 calories a day with 120g carbs, 24g fat, and 200g protein. So this translates to 5g/kg bodyweight. This person's fat intake was a little low, but still.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
There have been cases in the past in which someone has wondered if it's harmful to eat very high protein intakes (more than 3 g/kg of of bodyweight), and some suggested that there's no harm in that. That's where I question whether there's any truth to that. And I'm guessing it's becausesunnybeaches105 wrote: »There are several studies linking excessive protein consumption with kidney and prostate issues. WebMD and Mercola's sites link to some of them. There were studies done in Germany too a while back but I forgot which university that was. And the the amount of protein (192g) listed in the study you cite is not really that much protein. That aside, you can only synthesize so much protein. And assuming you are both in a surplus and also eating more protein than you need, the excess gets converted to sugar, which gets converted to fat.
Mercola really is a quack. I don't think you will find many people who are successful in evidence-based fitness and nutrition who take him seriously.
As for WebMD, feel free to share the specific link but that website tends to be somewhat vague. I don't think a general reference to that website is helpful in moving the conversation along when studies are being presented.
As for only being able to synthesize so much protein what evidence do you have and how much? Again, the conversation has gotten pretty specific so dosage figures would be helpful. I'm on my phone now and won't have access to my laptop until tonight, but there is good evidence discrediting the commonly held notion that the body can only utilize 30 grams or so. I'll post when I can.
The same goes for harmful dosages of protein. I don't see anyone suggesting dosages of more than about 3 grams per kilo of lean mass anywhere and that's on the very high end (and I'm the one who posted that study). The general consensus for most training purposes is around 0.8 grams per pound of body weight.
It's a great topic so let's hear it.Carlos_421 wrote: »High protein intake can be hard on kidneys if they are already damaged/diseased but it has never been shown to cause strain or damage to healthy kidneys.
But researchers have never really tested whether ridiculously high protein intakes are actually safe.
As for "ridiculously high," what do you mean? I ask because on a calorie controlled diet, one is forced to limit how much protein is consumed both by the calorie limitation and by the need for fat to maintain health and by the need for energy and micronutrients from carbs. I suppose one could argue that carbs aren't strictly necessary and that has happened on MFP, but I'm not doing so (and I don't see anyone here in this thread doing so). I like my pizza, salads and fruit. Fiber is a good thing . . . I also suppose one could literally eat nothing but very lean meat and never watch his/her calorie intake, but that's a ludicrous proposition and not something anyone here seems to be suggesting. That would also raise the issue of rabbit starvation, so it becomes a question of will the malnourished person live long enough to care about long-term kidney damage, if such damage is a real possibility? So it appears to be a case that isn't applicable to people concerned about optimizing their diets.
My point is that I'm not seeing evidence that anyone needs to be concerned about getting too much protein as part of an otherwise intelligently designed diet.
With those limitations there is this. And yes, no one was pumping people full of protein and nothing else here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
On the one hand, I don't know of a legitimate study that demonstrates it's dangerous. If anyone does have a legit study (not Mercola and friends) I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I don't see why someone would need 5g/kg of protein. In other words, per my comment above, this is not a case that I would consider part of an intelligently designed diet. Where are you going with this example?
A ridiculously high amount of many things can cause problems. This debate has seem to got off the rails from high protein to absurd amounts of protein.
OP is eating "above" 56 grams of protein and you think "most of us" would say she's not utilizing all of her protein? Have you read anything in this thread?
Please read the articles and studies linked in this thread. 56 grams was based on RDA and at least one study I linked suggested more than that for the general population. The other studies are all discussing optimal intake (i.e. actual use) of protein.
You also aren't seriously suggesting that the OP, who's profile lists her as overweight, is anywhere near 56 pounds (to make your statement about 1g/pound LBM make sense)? Double that or triple that even then guesstimate LBM? There just isn't much information.
0 -
Talk about majoring in the minors...martyqueen52 wrote: »This is really still going? lol...
0
This discussion has been closed.
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