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BCAA's (Branched Chain Amino Acids) depleting Serotonin levels leading to obesity?
GaleHawkins
Posts: 8,159 Member
in Debate Club
I broke this out of another obesity thread that triggered some of my research tonight. The last 2 minutes of the video is all you need watch. The blog link may be a 5 min read. The NCBI paper headlines may take a minute or two to read.
At this point I am trying to understand why cravings controlled my over eating for 40 years leading to grave health issues yet now for 1.5 years eating my current macro I have had ZERO craving to overeat because I get full and one more bite would gag me it seems.
There is a cause for my craves to totally cease at age 63 and I expect it is more than just a side effect of LCHF because some report that way of eating does not stop their cravings. The below is not talking about LCHF WOE's however but BCAA supplement usage.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=icS3OM2WDm4
Dr. Rhonda Patrick at the last minute of this podcast (jump to 59:00) hits a potential downside to eating BCAA's (Branched Chain Amino Acids) in a paper that she is about to publish.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-neurotransmitter-depleting-effects.html
"A note on the pro-obesity effects mentioned during the show: While some scientists invoke the increased BCAA levels in obese individuals and the subsequent blockade of serotonin (and dopamine) production in the brain to the constant insatiable cravings, anxiety and depression in these individuals (Breum. 2003; She. 2007; Coppola. 2013) a more fundemental contribution to the obesity pandemic has been proposed by Newgard et al. (2009). Their hypothesis is that a continuous presence of BCAAs in the blood will lead to a continuous overexpression of mTOR that increases the susceptibility to diet induced obesity and insulin resistance."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913163/
The tempted brain eats: Pleasure and desire circuits in obesity
This is a long paper on the subject as to why we may be more obese due to brain chemicals. I would suggest to just read the colored headings and the conclusion to see if you have any interest.
At this point I am trying to understand why cravings controlled my over eating for 40 years leading to grave health issues yet now for 1.5 years eating my current macro I have had ZERO craving to overeat because I get full and one more bite would gag me it seems.
There is a cause for my craves to totally cease at age 63 and I expect it is more than just a side effect of LCHF because some report that way of eating does not stop their cravings. The below is not talking about LCHF WOE's however but BCAA supplement usage.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=icS3OM2WDm4
Dr. Rhonda Patrick at the last minute of this podcast (jump to 59:00) hits a potential downside to eating BCAA's (Branched Chain Amino Acids) in a paper that she is about to publish.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-neurotransmitter-depleting-effects.html
"A note on the pro-obesity effects mentioned during the show: While some scientists invoke the increased BCAA levels in obese individuals and the subsequent blockade of serotonin (and dopamine) production in the brain to the constant insatiable cravings, anxiety and depression in these individuals (Breum. 2003; She. 2007; Coppola. 2013) a more fundemental contribution to the obesity pandemic has been proposed by Newgard et al. (2009). Their hypothesis is that a continuous presence of BCAAs in the blood will lead to a continuous overexpression of mTOR that increases the susceptibility to diet induced obesity and insulin resistance."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913163/
The tempted brain eats: Pleasure and desire circuits in obesity
This is a long paper on the subject as to why we may be more obese due to brain chemicals. I would suggest to just read the colored headings and the conclusion to see if you have any interest.
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Replies
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BCAAs are just the jagged stringy amino acids in proteins rather than the rounded cyclical / aromatic based ones so aren't they always around ?
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As a biomed student, this sounds like BS to me.... no offence.
Sure, it may increase your "desire" for food, but wanting food doesn't make you obese, eating it in excess does.2 -
As a biomed student, this sounds like BS to me.... no offence.
Sure, it may increase your "desire" for food, but wanting food doesn't make you obese, eating it in excess does.
Well, of course. But it's a persons inability to fight the feelings of wanting. And we are talking about "wanting" coming from an internal biochemical trigger. Not simply, "I like cake so I eat cake all day".
I personally know what it feels like to be driven by feelings of cravings that I couldn't fight against 100% of the time. I mean I could, and I eventually did. But the only way that I was able to finally end the constant insatiable desire for sugar for myself was to completely deny it until I got past the feelings. It took a couple weeks. I had to approach "quitting sugar" in a similar way as an alcoholic going sober. It took that kind of thought process for me to push through and finally be able to fight off the cravings 100% of the time.
I don't know anything about the science involving the bcaa's, but I do know it's not as simple as just choose not to overeat. There is a mental game at play and chemical and hormonal processes influencing it. If you haven't experienced it, I completely understand how it seems exaggerated and even like an excuse sometimes. I would never ever take the position that "it's a chemical thing and I can't help it, so I'm doomed". In my experience, the idea that this inner drive was leading me to making poor choices pissed me off and I decided that was it! I wasn't going to allow it to continue anymore. I decided the best approach was complete abstinence. It's been a year and the only source of sugar I've consumed since that day came from vegetables and dairy. After a couple weeks, I couldn't have cared less about my old favorite candies anymore.13 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »As a biomed student, this sounds like BS to me.... no offence.
Sure, it may increase your "desire" for food, but wanting food doesn't make you obese, eating it in excess does.
Well, of course. But it's a persons inability to fight the feelings of wanting. And we are talking about "wanting" coming from an internal biochemical trigger. Not simply, "I like cake so I eat cake all day".
I personally know what it feels like to be driven by feelings of cravings that I couldn't fight against 100% of the time. I mean I could, and I eventually did. But the only way that I was able to finally end the constant insatiable desire for sugar for myself was to completely deny it until I got past the feelings. It took a couple weeks. I had to approach "quitting sugar" in a similar way as an alcoholic going sober. It took that kind of thought process for me to push through and finally be able to fight off the cravings 100% of the time.
I don't know anything about the science involving the bcaa's, but I do know it's not as simple as just choose not to overeat. There is a mental game at play and chemical and hormonal processes influencing it. If you haven't experienced it, I completely understand how it seems exaggerated and even like an excuse sometimes. I would never ever take the position that "it's a chemical thing and I can't help it, so I'm doomed". In my experience, the idea that this inner drive was leading me to making poor choices pissed me off and I decided that was it! I wasn't going to allow it to continue anymore. I decided the best approach was complete abstinence. It's been a year and the only source of sugar I've consumed since that day came from vegetables and dairy. After a couple weeks, I couldn't have cared less about my old favorite candies anymore.
Great post. I don't think we are close to understanding all the mediators of cravings; but there is certainly more to it all than "self control."6 -
Interesting read. Ironically enough, supplementing with BCAAs has actually decreased my cravings.0
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Exercise increases my desire for food. The BCAA's help me to get through it with energy to spare. Sometimes after a long grueling workout I do wear down quite a bit, and I notice that my digestion goes into overdrive, but hey, that's something I was hoping for in the first place (increased metabolism). For instance, before my workout I ingest BCAA's with my pre-workout (which also contains creatine and other amino's plus caffeine). During my workout I sip on electrolytes and more BCAA's. After my workout, depending on how rough it was, I may take more BCAA's with another electrolyte drink. Hasn't caused me to do anything except gain a little muscle mass over the last few months (slight increase in muscle, I'm still in a slight deficit). But, I did not start this until I was at a normal BMI, so no clue if it would have affected me differently when I was obese or morbidly obese.0
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I'm exceptionally overweight, and found that when I was treated with SSRIs and other similar medications, my ability to limit compulsive eating was far worse than it is now that I don't take any of those medications. At the same time, I know there is substantial evidence to show that if dopamine receptors are "fulfilled" for someone who is struggling with compulsive eating, they experience far less cravings. This makes sense, since the satiation of cravings and the enjoyment of food triggers dopamine production and reception, much like drugs, though on a less euphoric scale for most people.
I think trying to direct scare-tactics to something like BCAAs rather than discussing how a person who experiences dopamine sensitivity and rush in relation to food is a failure in the discussion of how to address the majority of people who struggle with compulsive eating. People struggling with compulsive eating effectively escalate like a drug user, where they continuously seek the same rush but need newer things or more of those things to obtain the same feeling. However, instead of body destruction, they accumulate more mass, which then tends to drive an unhealthy love/hate relationship with food due to social pressures, self-perception, and things as indicated above, the sensation of "want" that can override a very real logical process. A person who has reached this stage may experience lower serotonin levels because this is associated with obesity and poor eating habits, as well as constantly elevated dopamine levels.
Perhaps the discussion should be had, and more research done, but I think if there was an established scientific validity to the claim of BCAAs causing lowered serotonin (the classically accepted cause for things like major depression and anxiety) and intensified cravings, bariatric centers would be advising all patients against the use of protein shake supplements, rather than prescribing them as a primary staple for weight loss. As a person going through the initial stages of WLS with one of the nation's leading research hospitals, who has replaced 2/3 of her diet with BCAA-rich protein shake mix for about a month now, the only negative effective I've seen so far from a "wanting" perspective is being hungry from the calorie and carb cutting lol0 -
So much time and effort on - "could this be making you fat?"
Looking for reasons, please God, anything other than the hand-to-mouth imbalance.
Im overweight because I ate more than my share for a long time.
Period.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »As a biomed student, this sounds like BS to me.... no offence.
Sure, it may increase your "desire" for food, but wanting food doesn't make you obese, eating it in excess does.
Well, of course. But it's a persons inability to fight the feelings of wanting. And we are talking about "wanting" coming from an internal biochemical trigger. Not simply, "I like cake so I eat cake all day".
I personally know what it feels like to be driven by feelings of cravings that I couldn't fight against 100% of the time. I mean I could, and I eventually did. But the only way that I was able to finally end the constant insatiable desire for sugar for myself was to completely deny it until I got past the feelings. It took a couple weeks. I had to approach "quitting sugar" in a similar way as an alcoholic going sober. It took that kind of thought process for me to push through and finally be able to fight off the cravings 100% of the time.
I don't know anything about the science involving the bcaa's, but I do know it's not as simple as just choose not to overeat. There is a mental game at play and chemical and hormonal processes influencing it. If you haven't experienced it, I completely understand how it seems exaggerated and even like an excuse sometimes. I would never ever take the position that "it's a chemical thing and I can't help it, so I'm doomed". In my experience, the idea that this inner drive was leading me to making poor choices pissed me off and I decided that was it! I wasn't going to allow it to continue anymore. I decided the best approach was complete abstinence. It's been a year and the only source of sugar I've consumed since that day came from vegetables and dairy. After a couple weeks, I couldn't have cared less about my old favorite candies anymore.
Great post. I don't think we are close to understanding all the mediators of cravings; but there is certainly more to it all than "self control."
@RobD520 I agree we are not even close to understanding all of the factors causing food cravings. We understand 'self control' is more or less a nonsense term because it is not something that has universal medical meaning and can not be objectively measured..
I understand I am no longer obese because I now have zero cravings and there is no 'self control' on my part now because ZERO cravings negates the need for self control. Yes I sometimes eat when I am not all that hungry.
BCAA's was just something the doctor mentioned and not a factor per se in my case because do not plan to use them again. Serotonin is a huge factor in the human body I understand.
My only question is why did I experience 40 years of craving carbs and just due to changing my eating macro Oct 2014 drop my carb craves to ZERO in about 30 days and they have not returned for 1.5 years?1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »As a biomed student, this sounds like BS to me.... no offence.
Sure, it may increase your "desire" for food, but wanting food doesn't make you obese, eating it in excess does.
Well, of course. But it's a persons inability to fight the feelings of wanting. And we are talking about "wanting" coming from an internal biochemical trigger. Not simply, "I like cake so I eat cake all day".
I personally know what it feels like to be driven by feelings of cravings that I couldn't fight against 100% of the time. I mean I could, and I eventually did. But the only way that I was able to finally end the constant insatiable desire for sugar for myself was to completely deny it until I got past the feelings. It took a couple weeks. I had to approach "quitting sugar" in a similar way as an alcoholic going sober. It took that kind of thought process for me to push through and finally be able to fight off the cravings 100% of the time.
I don't know anything about the science involving the bcaa's, but I do know it's not as simple as just choose not to overeat. There is a mental game at play and chemical and hormonal processes influencing it. If you haven't experienced it, I completely understand how it seems exaggerated and even like an excuse sometimes. I would never ever take the position that "it's a chemical thing and I can't help it, so I'm doomed". In my experience, the idea that this inner drive was leading me to making poor choices pissed me off and I decided that was it! I wasn't going to allow it to continue anymore. I decided the best approach was complete abstinence. It's been a year and the only source of sugar I've consumed since that day came from vegetables and dairy. After a couple weeks, I couldn't have cared less about my old favorite candies anymore.
Great post. I don't think we are close to understanding all the mediators of cravings; but there is certainly more to it all than "self control."
@RobD520 I agree we are not even close to understanding all of the factors causing food cravings. We understand 'self control' is more or less a nonsense term because it is not something that has universal medical meaning and can not be objectively measured..
I understand I am no longer obese because I now have zero cravings and there is no 'self control' on my part now because ZERO cravings negates the need for self control. Yes I sometimes eat when I am not all that hungry.
BCAA's was just something the doctor mentioned and not a factor per se in my case because do not plan to use them again. Serotonin is a huge factor in the human body I understand.
My only question is why did I experience 40 years of craving carbs and just due to changing my eating macro Oct 2014 drop my carb craves to ZERO in about 30 days and they have not returned for 1.5 years?
@GaleHawkins I have seen an interesting real-life experiment with my step son when he changed from being full time at his fathers to our house.
First, it is important to understand that, as a matter of principle, he has NO INTEREST in exercising self control. He recently turned 19 and his credo is that he wants to do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. This includes food. His BMI was around 25 when he moved in; but given his frame and musculature he probably had a bit too much body fat.
When he was living with his father, he was known to eat an entire large bag of chips in one sitting. The food at that house consisted of lots of sugar, fast foods, donuts for breakfast, ultra-processed carbs etc. There were comparatively few whole foods. Sometimes dinner was a big bag of fried chicken and nothing else.
(I understand that when I convert the fresh tomatoes and basil from my garden into a homemade marinara that I have, in a sense, processed them. I still maintain that this is different that the stuff my stepson was eating out of boxes and jars.)
In my house I cook fresh. We eat a variety of foods. Treats are absolutely available. But so are fresh vegetables, a wide variety of fruits, as well as meat, poultry, and fish. Cooking is a very serious hobby-though I did work my way through college cooking. We steer our menus towards less refined carbs; and I have taught him to love foods he didn't even eat before.
He has been staying with us full time since the end of last July. In that time, he has lost 15 pounds without at all trying. In talking about this, he told me that he is finding he no longer craves the foods that he used to eat so much of before. There are still chips in the pantry; but I bought them for him in the middle of February!
The night before last he got up at 2:00 A.M. starving. He entirely ignored the chips and Easter candy and made himself a turkey wrap with arugula, spinach, and a 55 calorie slice of cheese. ~400 Calories instead of the 1000+ he would have powered through last year.
What I think has happened is that his current balanced diet-lower in sugar and simple carbs, but not entirely excluding them-has regulated his appetite and his cravings.4 -
My n=1 says BS...I take BCAAs for my workout...no obesity here.1
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(I understand that when I convert the fresh tomatoes and basil from my garden into a homemade marinara that I have, in a sense, processed them. I still maintain that this is different that the stuff my stepson was eating out of boxes and jars.)
Sure, more nutrients, fewer calories, stuff like that. That's why I think the focus on "processed" vs. not is beside the point. Processed foods comprise a whole range of foods, some with very different qualities than others.
(I know this was an aside and not your main point, but I wanted to respond.)In my house I cook fresh. We eat a variety of foods. Treats are absolutely available. But so are fresh vegetables, a wide variety of fruits, as well as meat, poultry, and fish. Cooking is a very serious hobby-though I did work my way through college cooking. We steer our menus towards less refined carbs; and I have taught him to love foods he didn't even eat before.
He has been staying with us full time since the end of last July. In that time, he has lost 15 pounds without at all trying. In talking about this, he told me that he is finding he no longer craves the foods that he used to eat so much of before. There are still chips in the pantry; but I bought them for him in the middle of February!
The night before last he got up at 2:00 A.M. starving. He entirely ignored the chips and Easter candy and made himself a turkey wrap with arugula, spinach, and a 55 calorie slice of cheese. ~400 Calories instead of the 1000+ he would have powered through last year.
What I think has happened is that his current balanced diet-lower in sugar and simple carbs, but not entirely excluding them-has regulated his appetite and his cravings.
I think it's probably an issue of what you eat determining palate and cravings. If hungry I'd go for the more balanced option too, and it sounds much tastier to me. If I crave something, it's more likely to be something like that.2 -
I've seen a lot about gut bacteria and cravings lately. Basically, when you stop eating tons of sugar, your sugar-loving microbe population dies-off. Here's just one article about how gut bacteria may influence our actions:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/08/116526/do-gut-bacteria-rule-our-minds2
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