P90X, nutrition questions: bulking/cutting/recomposition

MWGemini

I'm about to start P90X next week, and I'm looking for insight from people who've done the program and know a bit about nutrition.

A little background: I just finished doing the 60 day Insanity program. I'm 5'10" and currently at about 140lbs and 7% body fat according to my scale (http://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Connected-Backlit-Greater-Goods/dp/B00N9ENKDI). I think that number is a bit low, so it's probably more like 12-15%. I've been an endurance athlete all my life, mostly running, but also long-distance triathlons, so I have very little body fat in my legs/arms/chest/face- it's all in abs, particularly my lower abs. I'm on the skinnier side of athletic.

I'd like to drop a little body fat and get better definition in my abs. I've got the muscle tone for an 8-pack, but it's hidden under a thin layer of fat. Only the top 4-6 are visible right now, and that's mostly only when I'm flexing. I know that dropping body fat will require a calorie deficit, but I'd also love to add some bulk to my upper body- chest/arms/shoulders/lats/traps. I think an ideal for me would be something like 145 to 150lbs, and less than 5% body fat. I've been there before and trying to get back to that point. I actually don't care about my weight at all, just using it as a metric. My fitness level is pretty much where I want it to be, so at this point I'm just wanting to improve the aesthetics of my body.

My question to those who've done P90X (or are very familiar with it) is: how do you recommend I approach the next few months as far as nutrition goes? Should I treat it as a bulk phase and increase my calorie intake and protein percentage? Should I treat it as a cutting phase and work at a slight calorie deficit? Should I try to recomp by eating at a maintenance level with a high protein/low carb balance?

I'm currently maintaining my weight with about 2000 calories per day, with roughly a 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat mix. Once I complete P90X, I plan to do either P90X2 or the Athlean-X program, and then reevaluate. I also do steady-state endurance cardio in addition to these programs, with at least one "long" (10-15 mile) run per week.

Any insight/advice is appreciated!

LazSommer

If you're looking to actually bulk, hit a real weight room. If you want to shed more weight to see abs, do a small deficit and do P90x if you want.

MWGemini

Let's say for the sake of argument that my home gym is as well equipped as a professional gym. Are you saying the exercises in P90X aren't ideal for building muscle? If so, why is that?

Packerjohn

Less than 5% bodyfat on a sustained basis is pretty rare air. Most people can't hit that.

MWGemini

Granted, I was a lot younger when I was at that level, and I was running an average of 100 to 150 miles per week in addition to doing strength training. Maybe I can get back there, maybe I can't. But the whole point of a goal is having something to reach for, right?

The questions in my original post remain unanswered.

rybo

LazSommer wrote: »

If you're looking to actually bulk, hit a real weight room. If you want to shed more weight to see abs, do a small deficit and do P90x if you want.

This. P90x is not a muscle building hypertrophy program. This is the best answer you're going to get. Might not be the one you want to hear tho

AverageJoeFit

If you don't want to go to a gym p90x will help you build muscle. If your home gym is equipped for it you can build muscle with p90x.

I did a combo of p90x and insanity for 2 months. It worked I have built a lot of bulk that I didn't have before.

MWGemini

It's not a question of wanting to go to a gym or not. It's a question of: what are the exercises in P90X geared more towards? So comments like "if you want to bulk, go to a *real* weight room" aren't helpful. Let's say I have all the weights/machines/etc. at home. Now it becomes a question of pros/cons of different tools and exercises. I.e., we can argue that barbells vs dumbbells vs resistance bands are better for certain things. Or that incline vs flat versus decline bench press vs pushups are better for certain things.

I'm still trying to hear, from someone who is quite familiar with P90X, what that program is better for. So far, @Loomisj72 has come the closest to answering that question (thank you). For @LazSommer and @rybo, if you think that P90X is not good for building muscle, please tell me why that is. Better yet, tell me how to modify it so that I can build more muscle than I would if doing the "stock" program. I.e. something like "P90X is too much cardio- lift heavier weights and lower reps" is something useful and concrete, whereas "go to a real gym" is not. I'm also looking for comments regarding nutrition during the program. @Loomisj72, you said you built a lot of bulk during P90X. Can I ask where most of that bulk was, and what your nutrition was like during the program?

Thanks!

LazSommer

MWGemini wrote: »

It's not a question of wanting to go to a gym or not. It's a question of: what are the exercises in P90X geared more towards? So comments like "if you want to bulk, go to a *real* weight room" aren't helpful. Let's say I have all the weights/machines/etc. at home. Now it becomes a question of pros/cons of different tools and exercises. I.e., we can argue that barbells vs dumbbells vs resistance bands are better for certain things. Or that incline vs flat versus decline bench press vs pushups are better for certain things.

I'm still trying to hear, from someone who is quite familiar with P90X, what that program is better for. So far, @Loomisj72 has come the closest to answering that question (thank you). For @LazSommer and @rybo, if you think that P90X is not good for building muscle, please tell me why that is. Better yet, tell me how to modify it so that I can build more muscle than I would if doing the "stock" program. I.e. something like "P90X is too much cardio- lift heavier weights and lower reps" is something useful and concrete, whereas "go to a real gym" is not. I'm also looking for comments regarding nutrition during the program. @Loomisj72, you said you built a lot of bulk during P90X. Can I ask where most of that bulk was, and what your nutrition was like during the program?

Thanks!

It's just not a muscle building program. You are too athletic to get a whole lot out of it, and you're consistently answering your own questions.

Any beachbody workout you pick will not benefit from a bulk. This is not how a bulk works. Beachbody workouts are effective in raising your heart rate and working muscle to the point that you will see slight endurance increases if you are untrained. The most carryover it has is cardio related in my experience.

The workouts are hard, but they aren't great for training. They are just exercise. My original answer stands. You mentioned abs under a layer of fat. If you want to see them run the program at a slight deficit. Bulking and beachbody are not supposed to be in the same sentence. I would challenge that Loomis was untrained, and any "bulk" was more likely loss of weight showing muscle that has been there.

A bulk cycle is not a "hey I just eat some more and get muscles," contrary to what some people seem to think on MFP since it gets tossed around a lot as a suggestion. A bulk requires significant work to be put in to stress your muscles to the point that they have a need for more muscle mass, and then you eat an excess of calories to give your body the proper tools and energy to build that muscle. Even a slow bulk requires hard work. As someone who seems fit, P90x will not push your muscles to the extent that they would build significant mass, even with a decent amount of excess calories.

MWGemini

@LazSommer, thanks for the more detailed response. I'm fit/athletic, yes, but I'm not "strong" in the traditional sense of the word. All my life, my exercise goals have been about endurance- how can I improve my marathon times, how can I do an Ironman and not feel dead at the end, how can I improve my performance for ultramarathons and reduce injuries, etc. I've never been someone who lifts heavy because I've never really needed it. In fact, I've never really lifted at all. I've spent countless hours running/biking/swimming/etc., but haven't really lifted weights in over a decade.

I do plan to start lifting more (since most of my life I haven't really lifted at all), and figured P90X would be a good "easy" transition to that. I'm also not looking for a quick 60 or 90 day miracle. I know that it's likely going to take at least a year or two to get to where I want to be. I just want to make sure that I'm choosing a good path, one that will get me there efficiently.

If it seems like I'm answering my own questions, it's because I've done as much research as I can, but I know I still have a lot to learn, so that's why I'm here asking those questions. Anything I can learn is just one more tool in the toolbox.

So since you said that BeachBody programs aren't good for bulking, can you recommend one that is, or a resource where I can learn more about it (especially on the nutrition side of things, since that's my weakness). At my peak, I was running 100 to 150 miles per week and doing strength training with a semi-pro body builder who was also my personal trainer and nutritionist (we served in the same unit in the military), and he had me at about 3% body fat at 145lbs, which I maintained for about a year and a half. Unfortunately, I've forgotten many of the things I learned from him, so I'm somewhat starting over in that sense.

Thanks!

AverageJoeFit

Here this is what you are looking for.

p90x Chest and Back: pushups and pull ups galore. Three dumbell excersizes that work back.

P90x back and biceps: double arm curls then a pullups excersize. Dumbells and pullup bar

P90x shoulders arms: flys, curls with some pushups. Dumbells and stands

P90x chest bicep tricep: curls, triceps extensions, flys pretty much all dumbells.

P90x Legs and back: Body weight squats and lunges. I used dumbells to add weight.

I only did those strength ones do to the fact that I did Insanity for cardio. The kempo, yoga, ab ripper and others I skipped. Any more spacific you can look up workout lists online.

LazSommer

MWGemini wrote: »

@LazSommer, thanks for the more detailed response. I'm fit/athletic, yes, but I'm not "strong" in the traditional sense of the word. All my life, my exercise goals have been about endurance- how can I improve my marathon times, how can I do an Ironman and not feel dead at the end, how can I improve my performance for ultramarathons and reduce injuries, etc. I've never been someone who lifts heavy because I've never really needed it. In fact, I've never really lifted at all. I've spent countless hours running/biking/swimming/etc., but haven't really lifted weights in over a decade.

I do plan to start lifting more (since most of my life I haven't really lifted at all), and figured P90X would be a good "easy" transition to that. I'm also not looking for a quick 60 or 90 day miracle. I know that it's likely going to take at least a year or two to get to where I want to be. I just want to make sure that I'm choosing a good path, one that will get me there efficiently.

If it seems like I'm answering my own questions, it's because I've done as much research as I can, but I know I still have a lot to learn, so that's why I'm here asking those questions. Anything I can learn is just one more tool in the toolbox.

So since you said that BeachBody programs aren't good for bulking, can you recommend one that is, or a resource where I can learn more about it (especially on the nutrition side of things, since that's my weakness). At my peak, I was running 100 to 150 miles per week and doing strength training with a semi-pro body builder who was also my personal trainer and nutritionist (we served in the same unit in the military), and he had me at about 3% body fat at 145lbs, which I maintained for about a year and a half. Unfortunately, I've forgotten many of the things I learned from him, so I'm somewhat starting over in that sense.

Thanks!

They are the cookie cutter beginner stuff, but Stronglifts or Starting Strength are good for strength training. The bulking and nutrition part is up to you.

If you're in it for the long haul, do a small surplus, around 2-300 calories above TDEE. This will allow you to grow muscles with minimal fat gain. You have to train with a high intensity.

If you want it a bit faster, you can have a large surplus. You'll pack on fat, muscles, and strength. You then have to cut the fat. Only recommended if you're a skeleton or really into packing on tons of muscle as fast as possible with no care for looks or being overweight. Otherwise you may end up on the high side of a bulk with moderate lifts and a daunting cut ahead

Either way, macros are important in that you want protein. Most say .8 to 1 gram per lb, or lb of lean mass. If you're trying to pack on muscle, prioritize protein to your goal and fill in with carbs and fat as needed to reach your goals.

Meal timing isn't relevant for weight loss, but it can be for training. Protein windows not so much, but for energy yes. This depends on you. Either complex carbs a few hours before your workout or simple a bit before.

Protein shakes are for hitting your macro goal easier, not necessary if you can without them.

MWGemini

@LazSommer thanks for the suggestions and info, I will look into those programs.

When you say "train with a high intensity", how do you define that? For me, that generally means longer runs at a faster pace, sprints, etc. When it comes to lifting, that could mean something else. It seems the generally accepted method is 3 to 5 sets of weights heavy enough that you can only do 8 to 10 reps (for each exercise, repeating until failure). Is that what you mean, or do you mean something else?

As far as nutrition goes, I'm currently trying to get about 150 to 200g of protein per day, but a significant chunk of that comes from a protein shake after my workout in the morning (48g) and a protein bar as an evening snack (20g). The rest is coming from eggs for breakfast and lean meats (chicken or turkey for lunch and dinner).

As always, additional advice/suggestions/tips/insight is appreciated.

LazSommer

Most of the programs will tell you the level of intensity, but for the most part most progressive beginner programs are going to put you in the 3-5 set range for 5 reps. The intensity is based off of a percent your 1 rep max for the lift, probably around 50-70% to start.

There are calculators that will guesstimates your one rep max based off of lower weight reps, but if you can get a buddy to spot you I'd try to find your actual 1 rep. Stronglifts will tell you to start with the bar if you're not sure, but that wastes a ton of time if you are anywhere above that level.

The idea of intense in this case is hard enough to have you moving sufficient volume in your limited sets and reps (volume being weight by # of reps) that you are stressing your muscles, but not to the point that you are regularly missing reps or sets. The intensity should be that where it is difficult but you can recover in time for the next workout and add weight per the program on the next session.

MWGemini

I ordered the Starting Strength book (and Practical Programming for Strength Training as well), and I also came across these books:

• Bigger Leaner Stronger: The Simple Science of Building the Ultimate Male Body
• The Year One Challenge for Men: Bigger, Leaner, and Stronger Than Ever in 12 Months
• Beyond Bigger Leaner Stronger: The Advanced Guide to Building Muscle, Staying Lean, and Getting Strong (The Build Muscle, Get Lean, and Stay Healthy Series)
• The Beyond Bigger Leaner Stronger Challenge: A Year of Shattering Plateaus and Achieving Your Genetic Potential

Do you (or anyone) have any thoughts or experience with them? It looks like they are similar to Starting Strength, starting with the same basic exercises, and slowly building on that. The 2nd and 4th items in the list above appear to be just daily worksheets for recording the workouts described in books 1 and 3 in that list.

What I'm thinking right now is that I'll go ahead and do P90X over the summer to transition to strength training and give me time to read through these books and plan out the next phase of my training, then I can start focusing primarily on lifting heavy things for a while.

aliciapastorlecha

The program that I like a lot for building muscle is Body Beast. It is amazing, it just focus in building muscle.

MWGemini

I've heard mixed things about Body Beast. What was your opinion of the instructor in those videos?