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Should junk food be taxed?
Replies
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I am normally a libertarian, but sugar is not any sort of essential nutrient and it is definitely addictive and abused which causes societal costs that we all bear. Alcohol and cigarettes are similar in that vane. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing sugar or HFCS.
So...why exactly does society bear this cost to begin with? This is anti-libertarian.
I agree it is anti libertarian. However, society bears the cost of cheap sugar through medicare, medicaid, and reduced earnings of people that get disease associated with over consumption of sugar. I would prefer a solution where the abusers pay for their own medical care, but we are never as a country going to be eliminating these programs.
There are no diseases associated with over-consumption of sugar... there are diseases that are associated with over-consumption of CALORIES in general, but not with sugar specifically.comptonelizabeth wrote: »Tobacco is taxed. Alcohol is taxed. At least,they are in the uk. I guess the problem with "junk food "is,who would decide on the definition of what constitutes junk.
This - bottom line - is the single biggest issue with trying to implement a tax of this nature.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?1 -
I am normally a libertarian, but sugar is not any sort of essential nutrient and it is definitely addictive and abused which causes societal costs that we all bear. Alcohol and cigarettes are similar in that vane. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing sugar or HFCS.
So...why exactly does society bear this cost to begin with? This is anti-libertarian.
I agree it is anti libertarian. However, society bears the cost of cheap sugar through medicare, medicaid, and reduced earnings of people that get disease associated with over consumption of sugar. I would prefer a solution where the abusers pay for their own medical care, but we are never as a country going to be eliminating these programs.
Attack the root cause - why is society bearing the cost to begin with?
You are addressing the symptom - and an incorrect one at that. Sugar makes for a wonderful whipping post, but it is not the root cause or even a symptom.
We are going to end up eliminating these programs at some point. These are unsustainable long term. You have two decisions to make - either kill it now and address the root cause or allow these programs to bury society.1 -
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zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
So one can only access the money they personally contribute? That's less of a safety net than a government-administered saving plan. If one never needs to draw on that money, does it revert to the family after the person's death?
Or do you mean that if you've contributed any money at all, you can draw benefits? This still has the issue of how you keep people from switching from one plan to another based on their perceived need for assistance. If I spend my twenties and thirties keeping my money and switch to the safety net plan at age 39 because I have realized I will probably need assistance with my health care when I retire, how are the decades I didn't contribute accounted for?0 -
zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
agree, health insurance companies have essentially become utilities.
You should be able to shop across state lines for health insurance, if you want it, and opt out if you want to. You should also be able to seethe cost of services at different providers, so that I go to hospital A I pay this for this service and if I go to hospital B I pay this for the same service and then make a decision based on cost.
I mean amazon's owner can have private space flight but we can't figure out a way to categorize the costs of healthcare service, really????????????3 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, I think this suggests why we are FAR from having a good way to stem the obesity epidemic. Our entire healthcare system is *kitten*-backwards bloated confusing crap. The average American doesn't think about their health until they lose it, and the reasons for that are tied up in our education system, all the problems with our insurance system, and all the problems with our healthcare system. And I'm not talking about Obamacare - I'm talking about stuff like the decision to tie insurance to employment way back when, the cultural focus on fixing the sick rather than supporting wellness, the pathetic malpractice arrangement, etc etc.
I honestly believe one of the reasons people are so quick to jump on one simple thing as "the reason" is because in the back of their minds they know that the problem is so complex it's hard to even imagine a solution.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, I think this suggests why we are FAR from having a good way to stem the obesity epidemic. Our entire healthcare system is *kitten*-backwards bloated confusing crap. The average American doesn't think about their health until they lose it, and the reasons for that are tied up in our education system, all the problems with our insurance system, and all the problems with our healthcare system. And I'm not talking about Obamacare - I'm talking about stuff like the decision to tie insurance to employment way back when, the cultural focus on fixing the sick rather than supporting wellness, the pathetic malpractice arrangement, etc etc.
I honestly believe one of the reasons people are so quick to jump on one simple thing as "the reason" is because in the back of their minds they know that the problem is so complex it's hard to even imagine a solution.
Nature provided us with a solution. We let compassion override it. That's our own fault.1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »caroldavison332 wrote: »no. we pay too much in taxes already and it won't dissuade people from eating it. Look what they pay for cigarettes.
Every time they raise the tax on cigarettes, teen smoking goes down. You make a good argument.
Every time they tax an item people want the black market goes up. Supply and demand. Taxing junk food sounds totalitarian to me.0 -
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, I think this suggests why we are FAR from having a good way to stem the obesity epidemic. Our entire healthcare system is *kitten*-backwards bloated confusing crap. The average American doesn't think about their health until they lose it, and the reasons for that are tied up in our education system, all the problems with our insurance system, and all the problems with our healthcare system. And I'm not talking about Obamacare - I'm talking about stuff like the decision to tie insurance to employment way back when, the cultural focus on fixing the sick rather than supporting wellness, the pathetic malpractice arrangement, etc etc.
I honestly believe one of the reasons people are so quick to jump on one simple thing as "the reason" is because in the back of their minds they know that the problem is so complex it's hard to even imagine a solution.
Nature provided us with a solution. We let compassion override it. That's our own fault.
Well I'm a fan of compassion, and I believe that considering all the amazing crap we've managed to figure out, we should be able to find some happy medium between leaving our sick on the edge of the forest for the predators to take care of and what we have now. But I may be a Pollyana
And yeah, where we are now is our own fault, one way or another. 2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, I think this suggests why we are FAR from having a good way to stem the obesity epidemic. Our entire healthcare system is *kitten*-backwards bloated confusing crap. The average American doesn't think about their health until they lose it, and the reasons for that are tied up in our education system, all the problems with our insurance system, and all the problems with our healthcare system. And I'm not talking about Obamacare - I'm talking about stuff like the decision to tie insurance to employment way back when, the cultural focus on fixing the sick rather than supporting wellness, the pathetic malpractice arrangement, etc etc.
I honestly believe one of the reasons people are so quick to jump on one simple thing as "the reason" is because in the back of their minds they know that the problem is so complex it's hard to even imagine a solution.
Nature provided us with a solution. We let compassion override it. That's our own fault.
Well I'm a fan of compassion, and I believe that considering all the amazing crap we've managed to figure out, we should be able to find some happy medium between leaving our sick on the edge of the forest for the predators to take care of and what we have now. But I may be a Pollyana And yeah, where we are now is our own fault, one way or another.
And that's perfectly fine. You should be allowed, and well within your rights, to throw good money after bad. But to force everyone to do so? Nah.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you handle pre existing conditions? The disabled? Would these people be eligible for the deduction too?0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
I assume they would be tracking the money you yourself have put into the pool. If you haven't contributed then you don't get health care.
Either that, or a literal opt out. That was always my problem with the individual mandate. I'd have been fine with it, if there were an option to opt out, which would prevent me from receiving any health care that I cannot either A: pay for up front, or B: have the credit to get a private loan to cover it.
yea, but if you opt out then the system can't afford to pay for everyone else's healthcare ...*sarcasm*
This is precisely why insurance as a whole needs to die in a fire, not be mandatory. The death of the private transaction, and insertion of a bunch of middlemen is a huge part of why medical costs are so stupid now, as you are well aware, I'm sure.
Unfortunately, I think this suggests why we are FAR from having a good way to stem the obesity epidemic. Our entire healthcare system is *kitten*-backwards bloated confusing crap. The average American doesn't think about their health until they lose it, and the reasons for that are tied up in our education system, all the problems with our insurance system, and all the problems with our healthcare system. And I'm not talking about Obamacare - I'm talking about stuff like the decision to tie insurance to employment way back when, the cultural focus on fixing the sick rather than supporting wellness, the pathetic malpractice arrangement, etc etc.
I honestly believe one of the reasons people are so quick to jump on one simple thing as "the reason" is because in the back of their minds they know that the problem is so complex it's hard to even imagine a solution.
Nature provided us with a solution. We let compassion override it. That's our own fault.
Well I'm a fan of compassion, and I believe that considering all the amazing crap we've managed to figure out, we should be able to find some happy medium between leaving our sick on the edge of the forest for the predators to take care of and what we have now. But I may be a Pollyana And yeah, where we are now is our own fault, one way or another.
Well for years we have - pro bono medical work and charitable institutions.
The all or nothing hyperbole is an issue where government decided to play a role it cannot possibly succeed - that of charity. What it is very successful is dividing people by creating problems.
Think of government in terms of being a charity. What would the percentage of administration fees be? Would you ever willingly donate to a charity where you knew that <10% of your funding went to the sick and needy?2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.
8.7 million people got SS disability benefits in February 2017.
72.5 million people are on Medicaid, 55.3 million are on Medicare.
I don't consider that to be a small portion of the population -- they'd have to be considered in any overhaul (or removal) of the safety net. Some of those people may opt into the safety net lane at age 18 -- they obviously wouldn't cause the type of issue I was asking about. But it's likely that at least some of those people would begin their working lives thinking that they would be self-sufficient forever and then something happened.
I understand your position on the role of charity -- I was asking for specific clarification on how you would deal with people who began their working lives in the second group (opting out) and then decided, due to life events, that they wanted in.
Is the answer that these people are exceptions who don't have to be considered? I don't know that we can assume that. We know from the example of health insurance that people will often forgo insurance when they're young and healthy, only to want it later. Do we think people would act differently with the safety net, that young people feeling like they've got decades of health in front of them will decide to have *less money* in their pocket each month because they're making rational decisions about the future possibility that they will be 65 and unable to afford health care?
If a pro-rated fee is available to these people, then I understand your clarification. If charity is the only recourse for those who are unable to afford the pro-rated fee, I understand that as well.
I'm simply trying to understand your position, that's all.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.
8.7 million people got SS disability benefits in February 2017.
72.5 million people are on Medicaid, 55.3 million are on Medicare.
I don't consider that to be a small portion of the population -- they'd have to be considered in any overhaul (or removal) of the safety net. Some of those people may opt into the safety net lane at age 18 -- they obviously wouldn't cause the type of issue I was asking about. But it's likely that at least some of those people would begin their working lives thinking that they would be self-sufficient forever and then something happened.
I understand your position on the role of charity -- I was asking for specific clarification on how you would deal with people who began their working lives in the second group (opting out) and then decided, due to life events, that they wanted in.
Is the answer that these people are exceptions who don't have to be considered? I don't know that we can assume that. We know from the example of health insurance that people will often forgo insurance when they're young and healthy, only to want it later. Do we think people would act differently with the safety net, that young people feeling like they've got decades of health in front of them will decide to have *less money* in their pocket each month because they're making rational decisions about the future possibility that they will be 65 and unable to afford health care?
If a pro-rated fee is available to these people, then I understand your clarification. If charity is the only recourse for those who are unable to afford the pro-rated fee, I understand that as well.
I'm simply trying to understand your position, that's all.
In my opinion, an opt out should be permanent. That's the whole point of insurance, is offloading risk onto others. You shouldn't get to suddenly decide that you want in later.
Or, there could be a "buy in" option. Want in? Pay what you would have over time.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.
8.7 million people got SS disability benefits in February 2017.
72.5 million people are on Medicaid, 55.3 million are on Medicare.
I don't consider that to be a small portion of the population -- they'd have to be considered in any overhaul (or removal) of the safety net. Some of those people may opt into the safety net lane at age 18 -- they obviously wouldn't cause the type of issue I was asking about. But it's likely that at least some of those people would begin their working lives thinking that they would be self-sufficient forever and then something happened.
I understand your position on the role of charity -- I was asking for specific clarification on how you would deal with people who began their working lives in the second group (opting out) and then decided, due to life events, that they wanted in.
Is the answer that these people are exceptions who don't have to be considered? I don't know that we can assume that. We know from the example of health insurance that people will often forgo insurance when they're young and healthy, only to want it later. Do we think people would act differently with the safety net, that young people feeling like they've got decades of health in front of them will decide to have *less money* in their pocket each month because they're making rational decisions about the future possibility that they will be 65 and unable to afford health care?
If a pro-rated fee is available to these people, then I understand your clarification. If charity is the only recourse for those who are unable to afford the pro-rated fee, I understand that as well.
I'm simply trying to understand your position, that's all.
In my opinion, an opt out should be permanent. That's the whole point of insurance, is offloading risk onto others. You shouldn't get to suddenly decide that you want in later.
Or, there could be a "buy in" option. Want in? Pay what you would have over time.
Just for the ability to administrate and fund the program, I would agree that the opt-out should be permanent (or you make the buy-in payment equal to what you would have paid overtime). Otherwise you would have too many people deciding later in life that they really did want Medicare (or SS Disability for their bum back or whatever).1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.
8.7 million people got SS disability benefits in February 2017.
72.5 million people are on Medicaid, 55.3 million are on Medicare.
I don't consider that to be a small portion of the population -- they'd have to be considered in any overhaul (or removal) of the safety net. Some of those people may opt into the safety net lane at age 18 -- they obviously wouldn't cause the type of issue I was asking about. But it's likely that at least some of those people would begin their working lives thinking that they would be self-sufficient forever and then something happened.
I understand your position on the role of charity -- I was asking for specific clarification on how you would deal with people who began their working lives in the second group (opting out) and then decided, due to life events, that they wanted in.
Is the answer that these people are exceptions who don't have to be considered? I don't know that we can assume that. We know from the example of health insurance that people will often forgo insurance when they're young and healthy, only to want it later. Do we think people would act differently with the safety net, that young people feeling like they've got decades of health in front of them will decide to have *less money* in their pocket each month because they're making rational decisions about the future possibility that they will be 65 and unable to afford health care?
If a pro-rated fee is available to these people, then I understand your clarification. If charity is the only recourse for those who are unable to afford the pro-rated fee, I understand that as well.
I'm simply trying to understand your position, that's all.
In my opinion, an opt out should be permanent. That's the whole point of insurance, is offloading risk onto others. You shouldn't get to suddenly decide that you want in later.
Or, there could be a "buy in" option. Want in? Pay what you would have over time.
Just for the ability to administrate and fund the program, I would agree that the opt-out should be permanent (or you make the buy-in payment equal to what you would have paid overtime). Otherwise you would have too many people deciding later in life that they really did want Medicare (or SS Disability for their bum back or whatever).
Now that I think about it, I'd actually add on an increase if one were to want in later with a buy-in. Nothing too unreasonable: 10% should suffice.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you keep people from switching when they ran into issues later in life, like a child with a disability or a chronic disease developing? Would people decide which group they want to be in early in life and be prohibited from switching from the non-safety net group to the safety net group?
Without some mechanism to keep people from switching, wouldn't you have relatively few people in the safety net group unless they actually planned to draw benefits?
These issues are outliers and can easily be absorbed in the system. You never make policy based on outliers.
You can switch groups, but would pay the prorated fee associated with opting out of the current plan.
That is precisely the point. Ponzi schemes are illegal for all parties with the curious exception of government. This also keeps politicians from pretending to play Robin Hood when they are, by default, the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Unfortunately, people with disabilities or chronic diseases aren't really an rare thing in our society, I wouldn't consider older people with chronic diseases or people drawing disability benefits to be outliars -- they'd have to be accounted for in any realistic program granting/denying benefits. There are probably lots of people who never think they'd draw certain government benefits until they find themselves in a situation where they need them.
That said, I understand what you're suggesting with the pro-rated fee. Thanks for clarifying.
These remain outliers - a very small portion of the overall populace.
This is precisely why government or any industry should be allowed permission in granting/denying benefits. This is a decision between the medical provider and the patient. By allowing additional parties into this extremely personal decision you have created a monster - one that can never be controlled and one that ensure corruption.
Probably? Policies should be based upon certainties or predictable expectations. If you set the bar low, the populace will aim low.
This is the realm of charity - not government.
8.7 million people got SS disability benefits in February 2017.
72.5 million people are on Medicaid, 55.3 million are on Medicare.
I don't consider that to be a small portion of the population -- they'd have to be considered in any overhaul (or removal) of the safety net. Some of those people may opt into the safety net lane at age 18 -- they obviously wouldn't cause the type of issue I was asking about. But it's likely that at least some of those people would begin their working lives thinking that they would be self-sufficient forever and then something happened.
I understand your position on the role of charity -- I was asking for specific clarification on how you would deal with people who began their working lives in the second group (opting out) and then decided, due to life events, that they wanted in.
Is the answer that these people are exceptions who don't have to be considered? I don't know that we can assume that. We know from the example of health insurance that people will often forgo insurance when they're young and healthy, only to want it later. Do we think people would act differently with the safety net, that young people feeling like they've got decades of health in front of them will decide to have *less money* in their pocket each month because they're making rational decisions about the future possibility that they will be 65 and unable to afford health care?
If a pro-rated fee is available to these people, then I understand your clarification. If charity is the only recourse for those who are unable to afford the pro-rated fee, I understand that as well.
I'm simply trying to understand your position, that's all.
In my opinion, an opt out should be permanent. That's the whole point of insurance, is offloading risk onto others. You shouldn't get to suddenly decide that you want in later.
Or, there could be a "buy in" option. Want in? Pay what you would have over time.
Just for the ability to administrate and fund the program, I would agree that the opt-out should be permanent (or you make the buy-in payment equal to what you would have paid overtime). Otherwise you would have too many people deciding later in life that they really did want Medicare (or SS Disability for their bum back or whatever).
Now that I think about it, I'd actually add on an increase if one were to want in later with a buy-in. Nothing too unreasonable: 10% should suffice.
Yeah, that makes sense -- especially if you consider the loss of interest the money presumably could have accumulated over time if it had been paid at the time it would have been initially "due."0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
How would you handle pre existing conditions? The disabled? Would these people be eligible for the deduction too?
Pre-existing conditions are already covered under multiple models. Nearly half of the the chronic issues in the US are weight related and would be eliminated with simple lifestyle changes. Remove the unnecessary middlemen of government and insurance and this will resolve itself.
As for deductions - of course. Everyone would be equally eligible - to do otherwise would be discriminatory.
Take a long hard look at what happened to medical costs before and after we insisted on inserting insurance into medicine.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
Well, I'm sure there are things we could look at to see how well it works with weight. Those insurance wellness programs, for example. I'm not sure how what you are suggesting is different, which is why I asked.For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
So to put this simply, I get a $2000 deduction from my state taxes for having a healthy BMI? (What if I'm Dwayne Johnson? I mean, I'm not, my BMI is 22 and I think I'd be better off around 20, so it's not a personal question.) It seems pretty open to abuse, as states are unlikely to be able to effectively check, but let's assume the technical issues get worked out--wondering what others would think of this idea.
It seems to me a more direct/effective approach, if people wanted to do this, was just let insurance companies charge extra if your BMI is 25+ (and you can't show your BF% is fine, I'd require that option), and still more if it's 30+ and so on. It really seems like the same thing, you still pay less for having a healthy weight.
Problem is that we probably WANT younger overweight/obese people to have insurance, as that's more likely to get them medical care and result in them losing weight when they haven't yet developed any medical issues. But young people without health issues are the most likely to say forget it if health care costs are high.
Just thinking this through, not arguing for anything.I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
One problem is that we don't have willingness as a society to see people suffer the effects of opting out, I don't think. Especially if the choice has to be made at age 18 or 21. (Edit: oh, janejellyroll is already raising the same points that I would have, yay.)1 -
This content has been removed.
-
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »We went way off topic yesterday, which was as much my fault as anyone's, since I find the topic interesting (and understand that lots of people will have different opinions -- I used to post on usenet in the '90s, after all, and am not negative at all about internet libertarianism, even if I disagree).
Here, though, is I think Packerjohn's argument: whatever one thinks about what the gov't should do, it's likely that we will not get rid of Medicare, at least. Beyond that, it's probably generally a bad thing that the population is so obese, on average.
He submits that sugar/soda taxes could help and would at least raise money to help deal with the problem (similar to the argument for alcohol taxes, which exist).
I suspect that they will not, but think it makes sense for individual localities to experiment with them to see what the results are.
Others find all such taxes at any level bad, and are against "sin" taxes in general.
My question is if you think these taxes are not likely to work (like me), do you think there are other public policy things that should be tried (including non governmental community efforts?) or do you think obesity is not actually a problem or that it's not a public policy problem, but a purely individual one?
My feeling is that it is a public policy problem but one hard to solve. I think education is good (but doesn't seem to have worked so far), making available healthy food options (i.e., addressing food deserts, promoting gardening and community gardens) is great, but again likely has a small effect, promoting community cooking classes, same, medical intervention I think is important and could be done more/better than it is, calorie posting/labels seem already to be done. Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic.
The inherent problem with government is lack of transparency and accountability. As long as career politicians are allowed to exist corruption will flourish. Government is ill suited for this role, which is why all socialist systems ultimately fail. People love being charitable - they abhor being forced to support a failing system. Centralized systems only work in small populations. Attempts to centralize large populations require authoritarian structures. Smart agile businesses work around this through decentralized structures, giving local structures the freedom of deciding which policies produce the best results.
Negative reinforcement has never been an effective behavioral modifier.
Education has been completely ineffective because we have centralized conflicting policies. We also have "leaders" who talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
This would be far more effective and efficient to promote positive reinforcements - just as the business world has done. Maintain positive health metrics = tax credit/deduction.
So setting aside the broader debate over gov't philosophy, can you be more specific? Tax credit/deduction offered by whom (feds? state?) for what?
People seemed really down on insurance company/workplace wellness programs in some other thread, but isn't that basically similar to this idea, but not gov't-based?
You get success in achievement based systems. It is an amazingly effective tool that motivates users into desired activities.
Well, I'm sure there are things we could look at to see how well it works with weight. Those insurance wellness programs, for example. I'm not sure how what you are suggesting is different, which is why I asked.For healthcare this could be tracked via an app - form a simple risk management structure (many business models already exist with these platforms in the business realm). Each participant actively engages in proactive measures and rewarded through specific credits/deductions. Specifically - maintaining a healthy BMI would equate to a $2000 deduction. This would be managed (ideally) privately; however as government has inserted itself by force this would be managed by state to minimize corruption and maximize competition. Unhappy with your state's policy - you can vote with your feet and relocate.
So to put this simply, I get a $2000 deduction from my state taxes for having a healthy BMI? (What if I'm Dwayne Johnson? I mean, I'm not, my BMI is 22 and I think I'd be better off around 20, so it's not a personal question.) It seems pretty open to abuse, as states are unlikely to be able to effectively check, but let's assume the technical issues get worked out--wondering what others would think of this idea.
It seems to me a more direct/effective approach, if people wanted to do this, was just let insurance companies charge extra if your BMI is 25+ (and you can't show your BF% is fine, I'd require that option), and still more if it's 30+ and so on. It really seems like the same thing, you still pay less for having a healthy weight.
Problem is that we probably WANT younger overweight/obese people to have insurance, as that's more likely to get them medical care and result in them losing weight when they haven't yet developed any medical issues. But young people without health issues are the most likely to say forget it if health care costs are high.
Just thinking this through, not arguing for anything.I have long been a proponent of a two tiered system. One for those who embrace the benefits and risks of liberty and another for those who do not. Those who want the safety net of government can certainly enjoy this, but they pay into this just as one would in an insurance pool. Those who do not can opt out.
One problem is that we don't have willingness as a society to see people suffer the effects of opting out, I don't think. Especially if the choice has to be made at age 18 or 21. (Edit: oh, janejellyroll is already raising the same points that I would have, yay.)
Yeah, I don't know if we have the willingness, as a society, to see people go through the impact of opting out. Especially if the consequences are happening due to non-lifestyle related issues or are impacting a third party (I opt out at age eighteen, then give birth to a child with a serious medical condition when I'm 30 and don't have the ability to pay several hundred thousand dollars for their care).
Are we going to tell someone in premature labor that their child is going to die because s/he will not receive the expensive neonatal care required? Are we going to tell someone who had a stroke that the ER isn't available to them?
(I realize that "charity" is often put forward as an option in these cases, I'm not sure how feasible that is. But I know it is put forward as a potential solution and I want to acknowledge that).
I know we have individuals in society who have the willingness to do that, but as a society . . . I'm just not sure. Perhaps a public education campaign could educate people on the benefits of opting in and increase the rates (assuming that type of public education campaign would be acceptable), but we're talking about convincing a group of people that generally have little disposable income and feel like they're decades away from facing the consequences of their choice (if ever) to make the decision to have less money each paycheck.1
This discussion has been closed.
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