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Should junk food be taxed?
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nickiphillips1 wrote: »I think we tax food with sugar, corn syrup, and other types of "bad" ingredients added. Then not tax the vegetables, fruit, and other foods that don't have those ingredients added.
People complain that healthy food is too expensive.
Healthy food (including fruit and veg if you buy wisely) isn't that expensive.
On the other hand, my local supermarkets sell an insane amount of hugely marked up pre cut fruit and veg. That is expensive, IMO.
one of the biggest rip offs in the entire store
Not gonna lie, I buy precooked and peeled hardboiled eggs. The markup is huge, but I hate peeling eggs so much that I couldn't care less. The ones I buy in the carton are used for cooking only, where it's crack, pour, toss.
Whoa... add that to the list of foods I never thought I'd see be a thing! 0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nickiphillips1 wrote: »I think we tax food with sugar, corn syrup, and other types of "bad" ingredients added. Then not tax the vegetables, fruit, and other foods that don't have those ingredients added.
People complain that healthy food is too expensive.
Healthy food (including fruit and veg if you buy wisely) isn't that expensive.
On the other hand, my local supermarkets sell an insane amount of hugely marked up pre cut fruit and veg. That is expensive, IMO.
one of the biggest rip offs in the entire store
Not gonna lie, I buy precooked and peeled hardboiled eggs. The markup is huge, but I hate peeling eggs so much that I couldn't care less. The ones I buy in the carton are used for cooking only, where it's crack, pour, toss.
I am with you on peeling eggs. My solution is just that I almost never eat them hard-boiled.
I hate peeling them as well so I found another solution. Soft boiled. I put 4 eggs in a pot of cold water and put the heat on high. As soon as the eggs just begin to boil I take the pot off the heat and time for 4 minutes. After 4 minutes I run them under cold water to stop the cooking. Take a knife and cut the tops off and eat the whole thing with a spoon. Have not peeled an egg since...0 -
I am normally a libertarian, but sugar is not any sort of essential nutrient and it is definitely addictive and abused which causes societal costs that we all bear. Alcohol and cigarettes are similar in that vane. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing sugar or HFCS.
So...why exactly does society bear this cost to begin with? This is anti-libertarian.
Society bears the cost of sugar and HFCS via government subsidies. Your taxes are paying for sugar and corn to be grown, increasing availability and artificially depressing the prices. This makes it cheap to use in food...and food companies like cheap ingredients. Society also bears the costs of the healthcare associated with sugar and HFC overconsumption...like type 2 diabetes..via higher health insurance premiums and higher Medicare/Medicaid costs.
Avoiding the question posed.
I asked why?
That's a really complex thing to answer. Most farm subsidies were set up in the Depression era because people were starving, the economy had tanked and the post WWI era was one of isolationism. They currently cost around $20B/yr in taxpayer funds. Higher healthcare premiums are because everyone that a healthcare company covers is in a risk pool...the higher the prevalence of ill health, the higher the costs to pay for the medical care..these costs are then apportioned out so that the healthy are subsidising the care of the sick. Medicare/Medicaid costs are going up and they are considered entitlements...or a sacred cow...in the budget..so the government pays whatever the cost is no matter how much it goes up. Extra funds are drawn from other taxes to cover any deficit. If it gets too much, the Gov can raise the %taken from each pay check in Medicare/Medicaid taxes. The government has the authority to do this for the general welfare of the US per article 1 of the Constitution. What gets funded or not funded is determined by the political process in Congress via the annual budget bills...which is influenced by lobbyists and constituents.
You keep using that term "general welfare clause " but you don't seem to understand what it means.
I never said '"general welfare clause" I have only said "for the common defense and general welfare" or "general welfare". I suggest you read article 1 of the Constitution which gives the Gov the authority to levy taxes and duties and so forth for the general welfare as well as common defence. I would argue you don't understand the US Constitution since you think all taxation is illegal...0 -
Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
I would support that model so that instead of an extra tax on junk food, we would instead not charge sales tax on non processed foods...so fruits, veg, meat, nuts, some dairy. I don't believe in an extra tax on junk food...but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.0 -
In Australia we have a 10% general sales tax (GST) on all goods and services.
Fresh produce is exempt.
I guess that's kind of like a tax on other (non fresh produce) foods.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I am normally a libertarian, but sugar is not any sort of essential nutrient and it is definitely addictive and abused which causes societal costs that we all bear. Alcohol and cigarettes are similar in that vane. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing sugar or HFCS.
sugar has never been found to be an addictive substance, never.
That's not true. Sugar has been found to be highly addictive in multiple studies. In brain scans it was shown to be as addictive as cocaine.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/13/sugar-addiction-like-drug-abuse-study-reveals/
FFS, I really wish this misinterpretation would die. All that happened was that the same pleasure centers lit up between the two.
The difference is that after cocaine use, the centers dim out heavily, and repeated increased dosages are required to have the same effect, and eventually even gain normalcy. This is addiction/dependency.
This doesn't happen with sugar. Everything returns to baseline, and that's it. This is not addiction/dependency.
When was the last time you saw someone shoveling in spoonfuls of sugar? My guess is never. Handfuls of M&Ms though? Probably often.
I'm afraid that multiple scientists disagree with you, the brain does not return to baseline, it reduces dopamine receptors which mean more sugar is needed to get same "high" this kicks off cravings, etc etc just like with drugs. Please see abstract to study I posted.
The full text is behind a paywall, and even the abstract seems to have some problems.
It states sugar-laden foods, not specifically sugar. As we all know, foods end up being greater or less than the sum of their parts, based upon several factors, including but not limited to: taste, smell, mouth feel, nutritional response, etc.
If you have access to the full text, I'd appreciate you sending it to me. I would be interested to see which foodstuffs were used for these things.
I have access, it's an opinion piece which summaries studies to date. Conclusion: more research is needed.
It's not an opinion piece...it's a review of studies to date. All reviews end with recommendations for further study...it's a required part of a review to get it published.0 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »caroldavison332 wrote: »no. we pay too much in taxes already and it won't dissuade people from eating it. Look what they pay for cigarettes.
They're damn near $30 a pack in Australia and people still smoke.
Seriously? And to think I got pissed off and quit when they went to 85 cents a pack in the machines in 1981. LOL.0 -
Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
Pennsylvania already sort of does this with their sales tax approach. It could be refined and extrapolated to rest of the US.1 -
I am normally a libertarian, but sugar is not any sort of essential nutrient and it is definitely addictive and abused which causes societal costs that we all bear. Alcohol and cigarettes are similar in that vane. I wouldn't be opposed to taxing sugar or HFCS.
So...why exactly does society bear this cost to begin with? This is anti-libertarian.
Society bears the cost of sugar and HFCS via government subsidies. Your taxes are paying for sugar and corn to be grown, increasing availability and artificially depressing the prices. This makes it cheap to use in food...and food companies like cheap ingredients. Society also bears the costs of the healthcare associated with sugar and HFC overconsumption...like type 2 diabetes..via higher health insurance premiums and higher Medicare/Medicaid costs.
Avoiding the question posed.
I asked why?
That's a really complex thing to answer. Most farm subsidies were set up in the Depression era because people were starving, the economy had tanked and the post WWI era was one of isolationism. They currently cost around $20B/yr in taxpayer funds. Higher healthcare premiums are because everyone that a healthcare company covers is in a risk pool...the higher the prevalence of ill health, the higher the costs to pay for the medical care..these costs are then apportioned out so that the healthy are subsidizing the care of the sick. Medicare/Medicaid costs are going up and they are considered entitlements...or a sacred cow...in the budget..so the government pays whatever the cost is no matter how much it goes up. Extra funds are drawn from other taxes to cover any deficit. If it gets too much, the Gov can raise the %taken from each pay check in Medicare/Medicaid taxes. The government has the authority to do this for the general welfare of the US per article 1 of the Constitution. What gets funded or not funded is determined by the political process in Congress via the annual budget bills...which is influenced by lobbyists and constituents.
The answer is quite simple - to acquire and increase power. The complexities are merely justifications for the acquisition of power.
Hmm...well wasn't expecting that. I think it's more of an exercise of power since Congress was given those powers in the US Constitution. I don't see anything that is an abuse of these powers...so wouldn't call it an acquisition or increase in power per se. Now I CAN see how corruption of Congress by lobbying groups and big business would equal the acquisition and increase of power over Congress...and then via Congress power over the populace.1 -
DoneWorking wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »caroldavison332 wrote: »no. we pay too much in taxes already and it won't dissuade people from eating it. Look what they pay for cigarettes.
They're damn near $30 a pack in Australia and people still smoke.
Seriously? And to think I got pissed off and quit when they went to 85 cents a pack in the machines in 1981. LOL.
Lol you sound like my dad... in his case it was 2CHF per pack that made him think it's outrageously expensive. He nearly passed out recently when I told him they're up to about 10CHF per pack now (I don't smoke but our apprentice does. How she manages to finance that hobby is a bit beyond me tbh).1 -
zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nickiphillips1 wrote: »I think we tax food with sugar, corn syrup, and other types of "bad" ingredients added. Then not tax the vegetables, fruit, and other foods that don't have those ingredients added.
People complain that healthy food is too expensive.
Healthy food (including fruit and veg if you buy wisely) isn't that expensive.
On the other hand, my local supermarkets sell an insane amount of hugely marked up pre cut fruit and veg. That is expensive, IMO.
one of the biggest rip offs in the entire store
Not gonna lie, I buy precooked and peeled hardboiled eggs. The markup is huge, but I hate peeling eggs so much that I couldn't care less. The ones I buy in the carton are used for cooking only, where it's crack, pour, toss.
I am with you on peeling eggs. My solution is just that I almost never eat them hard-boiled.
I hate peeling them as well so I found another solution. Soft boiled. I put 4 eggs in a pot of cold water and put the heat on high. As soon as the eggs just begin to boil I take the pot off the heat and time for 4 minutes. After 4 minutes I run them under cold water to stop the cooking. Take a knife and cut the tops off and eat the whole thing with a spoon. Have not peeled an egg since...
the yolks are ok like that but the whites are nasty
Whites are perfectly cooked. If they are not you're doing it wrong.
In all fairness, it took me some doing before I got the hang of it. Even so, sometimes they still don't come out right. In that case, whites are not great...1 -
I wish they'd tax processed food, all meat and dairy. It would fund Medicare/aid from sales of the things that cause most of the sickness. If the Big Packaged Food Corporations, National Cattlemen's Beef Association, The Sugar Association, The Egg Board, Dairy Business Association and all the rest want to act like the Tobacco Companies then they most certainly should be taxed like them.
I eat processed food, meat and dairy and I'm in excellent health.
And this illustrates nicely why there shouldn't be taxes on foods. Who gets to decide what's 'good' and 'bad'? People assign all sorts of labels and moralities, their own distorted relationships, issues and hangups, agendas and ignorance on food. Why should I be penalized for any of that?
edit: grammar5 -
Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
I would support that model so that instead of an extra tax on junk food, we would instead not charge sales tax on non processed foods...so fruits, veg, meat, nuts, some dairy. I don't believe in an extra tax on junk food...but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.
This depends on the state. Not all states tax food.1 -
Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
I would support that model so that instead of an extra tax on junk food, we would instead not charge sales tax on non processed foods...so fruits, veg, meat, nuts, some dairy. I don't believe in an extra tax on junk food...but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.
This depends on the state. Not all states tax food.
Yeah in my state, MI, the only tax on food is on prepared ones like deli case/hot foods.2 -
crzycatlady1 wrote: »Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
I would support that model so that instead of an extra tax on junk food, we would instead not charge sales tax on non processed foods...so fruits, veg, meat, nuts, some dairy. I don't believe in an extra tax on junk food...but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.
This depends on the state. Not all states tax food.
Yeah in my state, MI, the only tax on food is on prepared ones like deli case/hot foods.
In VA, it's a 5.5% sales tax on everything except groceries which are unprepared. Those are 2.5%.1 -
No..0
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zachbonner_ wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nickiphillips1 wrote: »I think we tax food with sugar, corn syrup, and other types of "bad" ingredients added. Then not tax the vegetables, fruit, and other foods that don't have those ingredients added.
People complain that healthy food is too expensive.
Healthy food (including fruit and veg if you buy wisely) isn't that expensive.
On the other hand, my local supermarkets sell an insane amount of hugely marked up pre cut fruit and veg. That is expensive, IMO.
one of the biggest rip offs in the entire store
Not gonna lie, I buy precooked and peeled hardboiled eggs. The markup is huge, but I hate peeling eggs so much that I couldn't care less. The ones I buy in the carton are used for cooking only, where it's crack, pour, toss.
that's less egregious as hard boiled eggs are multiple steps and like a half hour procedure in total
Er, hard boiled eggs?? The title of this thread is "Should junk food be taxed?"
Some consider deviled eggs junk food, and you can't make a deviled egg without breaking eggs, er, I mean peeling hard boiled eggs.
This is seriously why I won't make a big deviled egg spread for Easter brunch unless I can find someone else to peel them.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »zachbonner_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nickiphillips1 wrote: »I think we tax food with sugar, corn syrup, and other types of "bad" ingredients added. Then not tax the vegetables, fruit, and other foods that don't have those ingredients added.
People complain that healthy food is too expensive.
Healthy food (including fruit and veg if you buy wisely) isn't that expensive.
On the other hand, my local supermarkets sell an insane amount of hugely marked up pre cut fruit and veg. That is expensive, IMO.
one of the biggest rip offs in the entire store
Not gonna lie, I buy precooked and peeled hardboiled eggs. The markup is huge, but I hate peeling eggs so much that I couldn't care less. The ones I buy in the carton are used for cooking only, where it's crack, pour, toss.
I am with you on peeling eggs. My solution is just that I almost never eat them hard-boiled.
I hate peeling them as well so I found another solution. Soft boiled. I put 4 eggs in a pot of cold water and put the heat on high. As soon as the eggs just begin to boil I take the pot off the heat and time for 4 minutes. After 4 minutes I run them under cold water to stop the cooking. Take a knife and cut the tops off and eat the whole thing with a spoon. Have not peeled an egg since...
Hmm, if I get tired of over easy, poached, and omelets, I will try this.
My sister loves hard boiled eggs and has tried every trick given for them, none all that successful yet. She sometimes buys the peeled ones too. I told her if she finds a good trick that works to let me know.0 -
Here in Australia, fresh produce and wholefoods do not attract tax, whereas processed foods (as well as other goods and services) have a 10% tax on them.
Personal responsibility is one thing, but with poor food choices being so cheap, easy and available you get lower socioeconomic families feeding their kids non nutritious foods because its what they can afford (in both time, effort and money). We already have a mandated 30mins of physical activity per day in primary school (ages 4 - 12ish) but I'd like to see more cooking classes in all years of schooling, as well as free or cheap (govt funded) cooking classes for beneficiaries, so that throwing together a cheap healthy meal or lunchbox becomes second nature and treat foods go back into the realm of "sometimes" foods.
I would support that model so that instead of an extra tax on junk food, we would instead not charge sales tax on non processed foods...so fruits, veg, meat, nuts, some dairy. I don't believe in an extra tax on junk food...but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.
This is obviously not true.
We don't have a federal sales tax in the US. States and localities have sales tax, and they vary quite a bit, but many places have none or have none on food or none on non-prepared food/non-candy or the like.
My state and county and city have insanely (IM not unreasonable O) high sales tax and an extra tax on soda and prepared foods and candy (just what you'd like!) and quite a low tax on other food. Shockingly, there are still fat people here, and the percentage of lower income folks who are obese is higher than the percent of less low income people even though the taxes are obviously more burdensome on poor people. (Sales tax is a regressive tax.)
I am unlike the majority here in that I don't really mind extra taxes on what is in essence convenience foods, as I don't really mind taxes that people can choose to pay or not by what they buy. We have enough taxes that I have to pay that I find it hard to be bothered than there are extra taxes now on soda (any more than on alcohol or cigarettes) just as I don't mind that the stupid lottery is regressive--we need the cash and if it lowers consumption some I don't think that's bad.
I admit this all makes me a bad liberal, though, or self interested, as these are regressive ways of raising money.0
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