Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Should junk food be taxed?
Options
Replies
-
Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The other thing is, libertarian dream world is all well and good in theory (even if I don't believe it would work well in practice), but we live in a real world. What is going to happen to ACA and Medicaid, beats me, but I would be shocked if (1) we get rid of Medicare, or (2) we truly attack employer-based insurance. We also require hospitals to provide certain kinds of treatment.
As a result, it's pretty certain that our health care costs/taxes/salaries are going to be affected, to some degree, by the choices/health care costs of others.
Now, it's entirely possible to say that this is fine, they are also affected by all kinds of other choices beyond weight, so we still don't care if other people are fat or not. (This is, in fact, my position when it comes to the junk food tax issue or whether it bothers me if someone else is fat -- I don't, it's not my business at all.)
But it's not really possible to say that we should make sure it can't possibly be a cost shared by society, because the fact is it will be.
The dirty little secret behind employer based insurance is it is not taxable income to the employee.
I don't think that's a secret. I think a bigger issue is that people don't think of it as part of their compensation at all or understand that the system is the way it is because of tax-related benefits to the employer that encourage it. So many people (largely Republicans I'd say, but non political too) seem to think their generous employer-based insurance is the free market and would be the way it is without gov't intervention. And they don't seem to think there's anything wrong with insurance being tied to employment as it is. That's why I never believed wonkish plans like the one McCain had when running (but didn't actually talk about that much) that would largely separate employment and insurance would ever happen.
Funny thing is that the wonks who lean right and left both agree that employer-based insurance is dumb (as do I), but the general public tends to like it well enough.Eliminate it and either the person's compensation total goes down or raise the person's salary to make up the difference and the way things are now, that amount is taxed at the taxpayer's marginal rate.
As an employer (in that I'm a partner in a small business), we do see insurance as part of compensation and would have more freedom to tailor compensation to performance without that chunk that you can't touch/vary. We also understand that without it other compensation would substitute -- they wouldn't just go down if insurance went away, of course. I don't know how representative it is, but I think it's probably reasonably so. One problem is that employees don't see it as compensation -- explain to them that their compensation went up as a result of salary increase plus insurance increase, and they don't see the second as part of it, which is part of how the current system hides costs from a huge percentage of consumers.
This is private employers, which of course are mostly not unionized these days (and in a field that never was unionized anyway).
@lemurcat12, Employer paid health insurance does not give an employer any special tax related benefits.
They can deduct the cost from income taxes. Basically, for them it's like salary, whereas for the employee it's not, so it gets special tax treatment.I disagree that most of the public understands elimination of employer paid insurance and replacing it with the same value in another from of compensation would most likely result in additional taxable income.
Okay. Beats me what most people understand, but I wasn't opining on that specifically. My point was I don't think it's a secret that employer-based insurance is not taxable income to the employee, that's all. I think rather than thinking they pay taxes on it most don't really think of it as income at all, but just something they are entitled to as part of their job or something they assume they are paying for fulling, depending on how their plan is set up.Heck most people think it's a good thing when they get a tax refund at the end of the year after allowing over-withholding during the year.
Yes, I agree that lots of people tend to irrationally think this (not most I know, though, so maybe I'm being unfair).1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The other thing is, libertarian dream world is all well and good in theory (even if I don't believe it would work well in practice), but we live in a real world. What is going to happen to ACA and Medicaid, beats me, but I would be shocked if (1) we get rid of Medicare, or (2) we truly attack employer-based insurance. We also require hospitals to provide certain kinds of treatment.
As a result, it's pretty certain that our health care costs/taxes/salaries are going to be affected, to some degree, by the choices/health care costs of others.
Now, it's entirely possible to say that this is fine, they are also affected by all kinds of other choices beyond weight, so we still don't care if other people are fat or not. (This is, in fact, my position when it comes to the junk food tax issue or whether it bothers me if someone else is fat -- I don't, it's not my business at all.)
But it's not really possible to say that we should make sure it can't possibly be a cost shared by society, because the fact is it will be.
The dirty little secret behind employer based insurance is it is not taxable income to the employee.
I don't think that's a secret. I think a bigger issue is that people don't think of it as part of their compensation at all or understand that the system is the way it is because of tax-related benefits to the employer that encourage it. So many people (largely Republicans I'd say, but non political too) seem to think their generous employer-based insurance is the free market and would be the way it is without gov't intervention. And they don't seem to think there's anything wrong with insurance being tied to employment as it is. That's why I never believed wonkish plans like the one McCain had when running (but didn't actually talk about that much) that would largely separate employment and insurance would ever happen.
Funny thing is that the wonks who lean right and left both agree that employer-based insurance is dumb (as do I), but the general public tends to like it well enough.Eliminate it and either the person's compensation total goes down or raise the person's salary to make up the difference and the way things are now, that amount is taxed at the taxpayer's marginal rate.
As an employer (in that I'm a partner in a small business), we do see insurance as part of compensation and would have more freedom to tailor compensation to performance without that chunk that you can't touch/vary. We also understand that without it other compensation would substitute -- they wouldn't just go down if insurance went away, of course. I don't know how representative it is, but I think it's probably reasonably so. One problem is that employees don't see it as compensation -- explain to them that their compensation went up as a result of salary increase plus insurance increase, and they don't see the second as part of it, which is part of how the current system hides costs from a huge percentage of consumers.
This is private employers, which of course are mostly not unionized these days (and in a field that never was unionized anyway).
@lemurcat12, Employer paid health insurance does not give an employer any special tax related benefits.
They can deduct the cost from income taxes. Basically, for them it's like salary, whereas for the employee it's not, so it gets special tax treatment.I disagree that most of the public understands elimination of employer paid insurance and replacing it with the same value in another from of compensation would most likely result in additional taxable income.
Okay. Beats me what most people understand, but I wasn't opining on that specifically. My point was I don't think it's a secret that employer-based insurance is not taxable income to the employee, that's all. I think rather than thinking they pay taxes on it most don't really think of it as income at all, but just something they are entitled to as part of their job or something they assume they are paying for fulling, depending on how their plan is set up.Heck most people think it's a good thing when they get a tax refund at the end of the year after allowing over-withholding during the year.
Yes, I agree that lots of people tend to irrationally think this (not most I know, though, so maybe I'm being unfair).
Okay, your original post said the payment of insurance vs a similar amount of salary was a tax benefit to the employer:
"it is because of tax-related benefits to the employer that encourage it."0 -
The deduction is a benefit/encouragement. I didn't mean to suggest more so than salary, but the way it works out neither pays tax on it.0
-
But I think we can all agree...we're eating too much and I personally would be for reducing the amount of sugar being added to foods by better labelling laws (stoplight system) and ending the billions in farm subsidies on corn and other sugar sources which have led to it being so cheap and easy to add to processed foods.
I personally have had enough of people telling other people what they should and shouldn't consume because it's "good for them". Mentally capable adults should be making their own decisions on what they want to eat or drink . Adults are not 5 years old anymore and they don't need other adults to tell them what they "should" do.
You are assuming that adults will change what they are eating just because a label tells them not to.
That's unlikely, considering pretty much all of them already know what foods are considered '"fattening" or the like by the time they reach adulthood, and they choose to eat them anyway.
Many restaurants have had calories on their menus for awhile now and people still choose it anyway. McDonalds has had calories in plain sight for some time, and I don't see them hurting for business. They just came out with an even *bigger* burger.
People have to make their own decisions about food and drink. When you try to force their choices to what someone else decides is "good for them" people typically just rebel and do it more, because they value freedom over someone else's definition of "good". (Remember something called prohibition?)
Put someone in a room alone with 10 doors, and hang a "do not enter" sign on just 1 door- and I can guarantee you, they want to go peek in that room with the "do not" sign. Even if they don't actually do it, they want to. The fact that there's a law or rule telling them not to just inflames the desire for it.
However on your last point, I don't think the government needs to support industries either. If they can't stand on their own, they need to fold and make way for others. Government subsidies to business is socialism in action.4 -
but I can get behind healthy foods being tax free as right now all food is subject to sales tax in the US.
Nope, in Florida, food is generally not taxed, with the exception of prepared food (hot in the deli, restaurant, etc) soda and candy, and of course booze.
A quick look at Google also says 31 states plus DC exempt most food from the usual sales tax.2 -
Oh gosh - we can't have that now,can we?ConnieT1030 wrote: »
But I think we can all agree...we're eating too much and I personally would be for reducing the amount of sugar being added to foods by better labelling laws (stoplight system) and ending the billions in farm subsidies on corn and other sugar sources which have led to it being so cheap and easy to add to processed foods.
I personally have had enough of people telling other people what they should and shouldn't consume because it's "good for them". Mentally capable adults should be making their own decisions on what they want to eat or drink . Adults are not 5 years old anymore and they don't need other adults to tell them what they "should" do.
You are assuming that adults will change what they are eating just because a label tells them not to.
That's unlikely, considering pretty much all of them already know what foods are considered '"fattening" or the like by the time they reach adulthood, and they choose to eat them anyway.
Many restaurants have had calories on their menus for awhile now and people still choose it anyway. McDonalds has had calories in plain sight for some time, and I don't see them hurting for business. They just came out with an even *bigger* burger.
People have to make their own decisions about food and drink. When you try to force their choices to what someone else decides is "good for them" people typically just rebel and do it more, because they value freedom over someone else's definition of "good". (Remember something called prohibition?)
Put someone in a room alone with 10 doors, and hang a "do not enter" sign on just 1 door- and I can guarantee you, they want to go peek in that room with the "do not" sign. Even if they don't actually do it, they want to. The fact that there's a law or rule telling them not to just inflames the desire for it.
However on your last point, I don't think the government needs to support industries either. If they can't stand on their own, they need to fold and make way for others. Government subsidies to business is socialism in action.
0 -
Eh, I personally think it's a good idea, but only I'd never trust the leadership at the top enough to do it correctly. I'm sure they'd take bribes from certain products and start spewing bs like, "Oh, Ho-Ho's are high in iron! So they are not junk food. But Cheerios? You didn't bribe us enough so now you're junk food. And honestly, I think it would be better to ban the stuff, but again, only if someone with Jesus-tier morality was in charge.0
-
Why on earth would it be good (better!) to ban junk food (assuming we could define it)? Because banning other things like alcohol worked out so well? Because we shouldn't have the freedom to go to a restaurant and order some fries (chips) with our fish or because the excellent new gelato place opening near me, like the Jeni's that is already there, are dens of iniquity?
Also, what about the fact that I could still buy butter, flour, and sugar, etc., and make it for myself? (I even have an ice cream maker already.)4 -
SparklyBubblyBabe wrote: »Eh, I personally think it's a good idea, but only I'd never trust the leadership at the top enough to do it correctly. I'm sure they'd take bribes from certain products and start spewing bs like, "Oh, Ho-Ho's are high in iron! So they are not junk food. But Cheerios? You didn't bribe us enough so now you're junk food. And honestly, I think it would be better to ban the stuff, but again, only if someone with Jesus-tier morality was in charge.
why is cheerios considered junk food...?
0 -
SparklyBubblyBabe wrote: »Eh, I personally think it's a good idea, but only I'd never trust the leadership at the top enough to do it correctly. I'm sure they'd take bribes from certain products and start spewing bs like, "Oh, Ho-Ho's are high in iron! So they are not junk food. But Cheerios? You didn't bribe us enough so now you're junk food. And honestly, I think it would be better to ban the stuff, but again, only if someone with Jesus-tier morality was in charge.
why is cheerios considered junk food...?
Because Big Ag
1 -
Idk if this would just make "food deserts" worse, making junk food inaccessible too or if it would actually incentive stores to carry healthier options. Economists chime in pls.
Stores can only sell what customers demand. For example, you don't do to a liquor store to purchase running shoes. If all the customers want to purchase are packaged snacks and soda, that's what will be available.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Why on earth would it be good (better!) to ban junk food (assuming we could define it)? Because banning other things like alcohol worked out so well? Because we shouldn't have the freedom to go to a restaurant and order some fries (chips) with our fish or because the excellent new gelato place opening near me, like the Jeni's that is already there, are dens of iniquity?
Also, what about the fact that I could still buy butter, flour, and sugar, etc., and make it for myself? (I even have an ice cream maker already.)
Don't worry, the Food Dictators will be highly moral enough to know that they will have to ban your sacks of sugar and flour as well...can't have you weaseling out of what Nanny says is good for you, can we? Can't be having black market chocolate chip cookies and homemade cinnamon doughnuts flowing into Chicago from Amish gangsters in Indiana.5 -
French_Peasant wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Why on earth would it be good (better!) to ban junk food (assuming we could define it)? Because banning other things like alcohol worked out so well? Because we shouldn't have the freedom to go to a restaurant and order some fries (chips) with our fish or because the excellent new gelato place opening near me, like the Jeni's that is already there, are dens of iniquity?
Also, what about the fact that I could still buy butter, flour, and sugar, etc., and make it for myself? (I even have an ice cream maker already.)
Don't worry, the Food Dictators will be highly moral enough to know that they will have to ban your sacks of sugar and flour as well...can't have you weaseling out of what Nanny says is good for you, can we? Can't be having black market chocolate chip cookies and homemade cinnamon doughnuts flowing into Chicago from Amish gangsters in Indiana.
Relevant:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg 5 -
SparklyBubblyBabe wrote: »Eh, I personally think it's a good idea, but only I'd never trust the leadership at the top enough to do it correctly. I'm sure they'd take bribes from certain products and start spewing bs like, "Oh, Ho-Ho's are high in iron! So they are not junk food. But Cheerios? You didn't bribe us enough so now you're junk food. And honestly, I think it would be better to ban the stuff, but again, only if someone with Jesus-tier morality was in charge.
why is cheerios considered junk food...?
It's in a bright yellow box AND a plastic packet. Thus, doubly evil and unclean.
But if you scoop it from the stainless-steel bulk bins directly into a fancy little rustic brown paper bag with handles, carefully calibrated and market-tested to enhance feelings of virtue, cleanliness and superiority, why THEN my friend it is a super food.9 -
French_Peasant wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Why on earth would it be good (better!) to ban junk food (assuming we could define it)? Because banning other things like alcohol worked out so well? Because we shouldn't have the freedom to go to a restaurant and order some fries (chips) with our fish or because the excellent new gelato place opening near me, like the Jeni's that is already there, are dens of iniquity?
Also, what about the fact that I could still buy butter, flour, and sugar, etc., and make it for myself? (I even have an ice cream maker already.)
Don't worry, the Food Dictators will be highly moral enough to know that they will have to ban your sacks of sugar and flour as well...can't have you weaseling out of what Nanny says is good for you, can we? Can't be having black market chocolate chip cookies and homemade cinnamon doughnuts flowing into Chicago from Amish gangsters in Indiana.
we can all eat soylent green ..1 -
French_Peasant wrote: »SparklyBubblyBabe wrote: »Eh, I personally think it's a good idea, but only I'd never trust the leadership at the top enough to do it correctly. I'm sure they'd take bribes from certain products and start spewing bs like, "Oh, Ho-Ho's are high in iron! So they are not junk food. But Cheerios? You didn't bribe us enough so now you're junk food. And honestly, I think it would be better to ban the stuff, but again, only if someone with Jesus-tier morality was in charge.
why is cheerios considered junk food...?
It's in a bright yellow box AND a plastic packet. Thus, doubly evil and unclean.
But if you scoop it from the stainless-steel bulk bins directly into a fancy little rustic brown paper bag with handles, carefully calibrated and market-tested to enhance feelings of virtue, cleanliness and superiority, why THEN my friend it is a super food.
it has more than five ingredients too...1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Why on earth would it be good (better!) to ban junk food (assuming we could define it)? Because banning other things like alcohol worked out so well? Because we shouldn't have the freedom to go to a restaurant and order some fries (chips) with our fish or because the excellent new gelato place opening near me, like the Jeni's that is already there, are dens of iniquity?
Also, what about the fact that I could still buy butter, flour, and sugar, etc., and make it for myself? (I even have an ice cream maker already.)
Don't worry, the Food Dictators will be highly moral enough to know that they will have to ban your sacks of sugar and flour as well...can't have you weaseling out of what Nanny says is good for you, can we? Can't be having black market chocolate chip cookies and homemade cinnamon doughnuts flowing into Chicago from Amish gangsters in Indiana.
Relevant:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
People thought the Bloods and the Crips were bad....wait till the bloodbath starts as the Amish and Poles fight to corner the Chicago contraband baked goods market from Elkhart to the Wisconsin Line.4 -
And what's the evidence that the obesity rate has anything to do with the cost of so-called "real food" (which is probably as cheap as it's been, in the US away) or that taxing other foods would decrease costs?0
-
The government not suppuses to tax necessities. Food is a necessity. Junk food is food. End of story.
If the government actually wanted to help the obesity crisis they would invest in education and infrastructure that people can walk/bike on.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 922 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions