July (2016) Running Challenge
Replies
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So, I have been reading and skimming the last few days. Congrats @MNLittleFinn on your half marathon and @michable on your full. Great times for both of you!
I had my 4 week post op appointment yesterday. I have officially been cleared to exercise--any exercise! The only caveat being "if it hurts, don't do it." I have one more post op appointment in 6 weeks, and the surgeon expects to be able to release me from his care at that time.
I think I will still be waiting a little while to get back into running, but maybe I will manage to get some miles in later this month. I'll definitely be sticking to the treadmill for a while, so that I can stop any time I need to and not get stuck somewhere and to take advantage of the even, level surface.
Off to the gym for--something!5 -
@michable - Congratulations! Such an amazing accomplishment.
@shanaber - I wish I had the discipline to go in the morning! Such an amazing way to start the day but I can't seem to drag my butt out of bed until the last minute.
@ddmom0811 - I always see pictures from the Princess runs and even though I'm not a big Disney fan, they look like such a blast!
@lps1dragonfly - I started with c25k and loved it. If you're looking for something to do once that program is over, the bridge 2 10k app is just as great!
You're all making me feel lucky with the recent Pacific Northwest weather... it's been perfectly overcast for the most part. I can't imagine running in the heat and humidity, although, I'm assuming at some point you get acclimated? The hottest I've run in was an 85 degree day and not being used to it at all, I had to break my run up into two parts to get in my mileage.0 -
@Elise4270 I'm walking with my little man, 3-4 miles a day really easy. Not going to try running until my quads feel good for a full day. Today feels like a big calorie day. I'm SUPER hungry today.2
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Yeah, he discusses that. Basically if you are not accustomed to regular runs at/near LT then you need to build up to that first before easing in to testing your VO2Max. To do so you are basically running all out, and should only do it for 2-4 minutes per interval max from his recommendation.MNLittleFinn wrote: »@WhatMeRunning you made my head spin too. I guess another thing I was thinking about when I read what you wrote is this, for me, generally, faster runs are harder on my joints, so the V02 Max runs could be stressing more than just your cardio system more.
So the way I'm almost looking at it is, I know my estimated VO2Max. It is below average for sure, even after running for two years. I'm obviously not running in such a way as to increase it, and if I keep running the way I am then aging will lower it even further. Unless I change things, per this guy anyway. He is a very well respected name though, so there is that.0 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »
Yeah, he discusses that. Basically if you are not accustomed to regular runs at/near LT then you need to build up to that first before easing in to testing your VO2Max. To do so you are basically running all out, and should only do it for 2-4 minutes per interval max from his recommendation.MNLittleFinn wrote: »@WhatMeRunning you made my head spin too. I guess another thing I was thinking about when I read what you wrote is this, for me, generally, faster runs are harder on my joints, so the V02 Max runs could be stressing more than just your cardio system more.
So the way I'm almost looking at it is, I know my estimated VO2Max. It is below average for sure, even after running for two years. I'm obviously not running in such a way as to increase it, and if I keep running the way I am then aging will lower it even further. Unless I change things, per this guy anyway. He is a very well respected name though, so there is that.
Some authors will take the VO2max longer than that. I'm using Pete Pfitzinger 18/70 Advanced Marathoning plan and I've got a 8 mile run with 3x1600 @ 5k pace so I'll be going 6:45-7:00 on these intervals on that workout. I can do 1000's in under 4:00 but 1200's & 1600 intervals for most will go past that 4:00 range.1 -
Here are a couple of blog posts (each part of a series so you might follow the links to prior/following posts as well). They discuss the scientific findings basically.I'm really interested in this VO2 training, don't understand it. But do want to indulge the potential I have. So if you fellas can dumb it down just a bit....
Edit- I don't understand it because no way I can run with my HR in anything below z4. My garmin thinks I have a z6 no matter how many times I try to correct it. Maybe I'm still conditioning my CV system. Or I'm an alien. My seemingly natural body temperature is 97.5F (36.4C) too.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/09/aging-and-performance-part-3.html
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/09/aging-whats-behind-the-decline.html
In a nutshell, it is demonstrated that the largest loss among athletes compared to sedentary peers is in VO2Max, even among older athletes that still do endurance events regularly. The cause seems to be that as one ages they tend to not push themselves as hard. The lack of pushing one's VO2Max causes it to deteriorate at a similar rate and even down to a similar volume as someone who is sedentary. Granted, they have better endurance than someone sedentary, but they are much slower now and that is primarily due to the greatly reduced VO2Max, they aren't able to get as much oxygen on their runs as if they had a higher VO2Max still. The way to maintain that VO2Max is to continue stressing it regularly by doing those hard workouts, and not sacrificing them due to either a self-imposed imagination of being too old, too frail, or simply due to wanting to get the mileage up to compete in that 1500K you dreamed about.
Hope that dumbed it down a bit.
In my case, at my current abilities, once I get over about 50 mpw it is tough to keep at least one fast run per week, but ideally there should be two, one around LT, and one around VO2Max. So, instead of being focused on building mileage over cycles so much, I am taking this to mean I should instead work my VO2Max first, and take whatever mileage gains I can get from speed improvements basically. Even after that, I would best be served by still making sure I keep the higher HR workouts in long term just due to getting older. That really changes things. Instead of building miles and waiting for speed to come, the focus is on intensity and waiting for the mileage to come.2 -
July
1-4.6mi with incline between 1-13. slow and steady
2-nope
3-nope
4-nope
5-hip and foot cramps, nope
6-flare. jog or yoga tonight. not sure which
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@WhatMeRunning -I can't really answer your question directly because I am not familiar with Joe Friel's work, but since I am the same age as you, I thought I would chime in with my experience, for what it's worth. I am a long time runner of close to 20 years (did my first HM in 2003, my first full in 2013). Although I ran regularly, I never started "training" until about 2 years ago in 2014 when I read Matt Fitzgerald's "80/20 Running". After very closely following his recommended method of training for several months, I noticed remarkable improvements in my speed. As you know, his plan calls for doing 80% of your running at easy aerobic pace and 20% at increased intensity. Most of my training weeks consisted of one run at LT pace and one run of speed intervals pushing VO2Max. As I said, this led to significant improvements in my overall endurance racing speeds. As my goal was to qualify for Boston, this was the focus of my training. However, at the same time, I did end up really reducing my other race times as well, all the way down to the 5K. However, I think that through all of this, the gains were seen more on the long distance end of the spectrum than the shorter races.
Now to get to your question. When I am not training, I continue to run, but mostly just maintenance type stuff. For about 2-3 months of the year, I just average about 25-35 mpw with little or no speed work. I view this as sort of an extended recovery period, much like the way you would have a cut back week in a heavy training schedule. What happens during this time is what is kind of interesting. Since I have already built a pretty good aerobic base, I rarely see any gains in my easy pace during this time. On top of that, when I get back in to training mode, it is very noticeable that I am not where I was previously in terms of LT or VO2Max. These workout become quite a challenge when I am first getting back to them. However, once I get into my routine of incorporating them again, they become easier and I still think I am making overall improvements in those areas. So it's kind of like two steps forward during training, one step back during maintenance. But when I get back to training, those two steps forward seem to happen faster, if that makes sense. I think where age comes into play is how necessary those recovery periods become (both the cutback weeks during training and the maintenance blocks of time). I don't think I would be able to sustain a year round training schedule that included this type of speed work. Maybe when I was younger, but at my age the fatigue is definitely more apparent.
I don't know for sure for how long I will continue to see improvement doing this type of training. I just got back into a training cycle, so my fall half marathon will be the first test.
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From what I can tell, intensity trumps mileage almost every day of the week - especially if you're trying to lose weight. Besides, who has TIME for all those miles? As much as I like running and would love to impress people with my mpw, I know I don't have time for any of that - so I rely on interval workouts, along with 5-6 mile runs.0
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@lporter229 - Thanks, that was very insightful and helpful.1
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@5512bf 84 laps?! That's determination.
@ceciliaslater Congrats! Hope you enjoyed the workout
Glad I'm getting my runs done early in the morning before I have time to realize I CAN'T BREATHE. Argh. Driving me nuts.
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Hey guys, I have a question. I had a marathon on June 18th and am just now getting my mileage back up. I've always used a training plan to determine how many miles I run each day. I started with c25k a year ago and worked my way up to Hal Higdon HM and marathon plans.
Currently, my goal is to be HM ready at all times so I'm wondering if I should be following a plan or just aiming to get X amount of miles in per week? I've never not followed a plan before so I'm kind of going rogue. I'm thinking 3 days per week at 5-8 miles and then a weekend long run anywhere between 9-15. Any thoughts?0 -
I missed this one earlier in between replies I think. I'm glad I went back and saw it!WhatMeRunning wrote: »
Yeah, he discusses that. Basically if you are not accustomed to regular runs at/near LT then you need to build up to that first before easing in to testing your VO2Max. To do so you are basically running all out, and should only do it for 2-4 minutes per interval max from his recommendation.MNLittleFinn wrote: »@WhatMeRunning you made my head spin too. I guess another thing I was thinking about when I read what you wrote is this, for me, generally, faster runs are harder on my joints, so the V02 Max runs could be stressing more than just your cardio system more.
So the way I'm almost looking at it is, I know my estimated VO2Max. It is below average for sure, even after running for two years. I'm obviously not running in such a way as to increase it, and if I keep running the way I am then aging will lower it even further. Unless I change things, per this guy anyway. He is a very well respected name though, so there is that.
Some authors will take the VO2max longer than that. I'm using Pete Pfitzinger 18/70 Advanced Marathoning plan and I've got a 8 mile run with 3x1600 @ 5k pace so I'll be going 6:45-7:00 on these intervals on that workout. I can do 1000's in under 4:00 but 1200's & 1600 intervals for most will go past that 4:00 range.
I ordered Joe Friel's "Fast After 50" to get the in depth thoughts and processes behind what Joe Friel is really trying to get across and how I might be able to use it. I'll be happy to share any insights I glean.
One thing I did see in one of his blog posts was about the duration spent at VO2Max. In my case for example, using the Jack Daniels spreadsheet, plugging in my info, and making HR Max adjustments based on real life observations of HR/Pace data, I get the following in the "Joe Friel Training Zone Approximations" section of that spreadsheet (with my HRMax 184 and Resting HR 48 for reference):
Zone 5a: 166-169
Zone 5b: 171-176
One of Joe Friel's blog posts went over a longer study that observed one group doing shorter intervals at Zone 5a-b versus another group doing longer intervals at the same effort. While in the shorter term the VO2Max gains were similar, over the longer term the gains for the group doing longer intervals (4x3-5 minutes if I recall correctly) was 2% while the VO2Max gains for the shorter intervals group (3 sets of 13x30 seconds) was 8%. This was done 2-3 times/week if I recall right, so it was a TOUGH program and not how one would do this during training normally.
Still though, I found it interesting. In the end from what Joe is saying the key thing is total time spent in VO2Max range over the whole workout, and that the 3 sets of 13x30 seconds per session is what made the difference (24.5 minutes/session versus 12-20 minutes).
Either way, what I am finding most interesting (for me, and my current health/age) is that since I have done LT runs somewhat regularly this year and recently, I should be able to begin working op towards some VO2Max interval sessions and quite possibly see greater benefits long term than I was getting from trying to increase my mileage as my #1 objective, and working in tougher workouts as I could. It seems that if I continue to focus more heavily on mileage then I can pretty much count on getting slower with age and therefore making it harder to keep up or increase mileage.1 -
@5512bf - 84 labs! Wow! What discipline. I don't know if I could do it. Although if it was really cold inside and I could be behind or with someone, maybe I could.
@WhatMeRunning - my head was spinning from your question just like @MNLittleFinn said. Even though you dumbed it down in a later post, I am not up for reading about V02 stuff yet. But I think you've been running the same time as me (~ 2 years) so maybe I'll figure it all out soon. For now, I'm just dealing with the heat!
@Stoshew71 - your comment that training in this heat and how it improves us, is helping us is motivating me to keep it going through the brutal heat. Thank you! Not just for that but for all the advice you give everyone.
@ceciliaslater & @ROBOTFOOD -- congrats on getting the clear to run!
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WhatMeRunning wrote: »
Still though, I found it interesting. In the end from what Joe is saying the key thing is total time spent in VO2Max range over the whole workout, and that the 3 sets of 13x30 seconds per session is what made the difference (24.5 minutes/session versus 12-20 minutes).
That's interesting. Did he talk about the recovery between intervals for each group? Was it time based or heart rate? The only thing I would question is how much of a 30 second interval is actually spent @ VO2Max? It takes some time to get there, especially on the first few intervals, so a lesser percentage of each interval will actually be at VO2Max for shorter intervals. I guess one could argue that the effort is more intense so a larger part of the recovery is still in VO2Max? Just wondering if this was discussed.0 -
@WhatMeRunning
I'm not sure that I could achieve my vo2max HR range in :30 intervals. My zone 5 is a little higher than yours starting at 171-200(max). I try to get to about 185-190 in my sessions. I do stride work each week where I'll do 10-12 x :25 sec peaking at my mile pace of 6:15ish. I don't consider that VO2max work however and include it in my easy sessions towards the end with 2:00 recovery between them. I hit 170 on the last interval of a 9 mile run last week doing that type of session.0 -
It was only touched upon, but it was not left out entirely. He mentioned a longer warmup than I am accustomed to, with the first 10 minutes just getting flexible, then increasing intensity a bit over the next 10 to even 20 minutes before starting the intervals. That's as much as I recall though. So the warmup is a bit more intense, but that's all the more I know.lporter229 wrote: »WhatMeRunning wrote: »
Still though, I found it interesting. In the end from what Joe is saying the key thing is total time spent in VO2Max range over the whole workout, and that the 3 sets of 13x30 seconds per session is what made the difference (24.5 minutes/session versus 12-20 minutes).
That's interesting. Did he talk about the recovery between intervals for each group? Was it time based or heart rate? The only thing I would question is how much of a 30 second interval is actually spent @ VO2Max? It takes some time to get there, especially on the first few intervals, so a lesser percentage of each interval will actually be at VO2Max for shorter intervals. I guess one could argue that the effort is more intense so a larger part of the recovery is still in VO2Max? Just wondering if this was discussed.
I thought it sounded quite similar to "strides" myself, but different in that they are the focus of the run instead of how I am accustomed to using strides at the later portions of a long run. But I suppose that long run does provide quite a "warmup".@WhatMeRunning
I'm not sure that I could achieve my vo2max HR range in :30 intervals. My zone 5 is a little higher than yours starting at 171-200(max). I try to get to about 185-190 in my sessions. I do stride work each week where I'll do 10-12 x :25 sec peaking at my mile pace of 6:15ish. I don't consider that VO2max work however and include it in my easy sessions towards the end with 2:00 recovery between them. I hit 170 on the last interval of a 9 mile run last week doing that type of session.
I'll share what I get from the book. Looks like it came out just last year so it's still a bit new, but I like that since the research it is based on is pretty current. The foreword that I read mentioned it is littered with reference annotations and suggested you be familiar with PubMed if you want to research them, but that it's not his intention to make people think they are reading a research paper so he is supposed to be dumbing it down so I can understand it (I hope).0 -
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Well this turned out to not be much of a set back. Only 1 week off. My doc just called and said my new test results are 100% normal. He said I bounced back much faster than expected. He said I can resume easy activities right now. And normal activities next week.
I'm going to go for a few tonight! Glacial pace running only (9:00/mi).
Hope everyone's training is going well!7 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »@michable - Way to go on that marathon! That last 10k is really quite a chore, no doubt. I can't believe they had an out and back for that last 10k, that seems just cruel! That should be part of the description of the race, about the challenge of being near the finish only to do an out and back for that final 10k to prove you really want it! Awesome job!
So a question for everyone. I have begun adding in regular LT effort runs because they not only "feel good" (strange as that sounds) but they are known to be super helpful. Based on my health and age perhaps this caps my mileage, which was anticipated, and starting to run again in the summer heat also is a limiting distance factor. No big deal, I know mileage will increase. But then I start reading a bit more about Joe Friel running, specifically in regards to aging. I turn 45 this year, and I know that while I have the youth to build strength and endurance I am also doing this against the current of aging which is pushing against my ability to gain strength and endurance. Again, no big deal, just do it, right? Well, I read some blog posts of Joe Friel's specifically about aging and the importance of runs stressing your VO2Max as opposed to simple aerobic endurance and LT running. It perks my interest a bit because, yes, I had planned on having my next run be intervals stressing my VO2Max (actually how I stumbled upon the blog post).
Anyhow, the question I wanted to ask was, has anyone here done this? Going from the standard high mileage endurance training plans that typically use LT as the cap of effort in training to working VO2Max, and what was that experience like? Also, for you aging athletes out there, what do you think of Joe Friels philosophy (if you are aware of it) that aging athletes are better served by maintaining their VO2Max as they age by making sure to regularly exercise at that effort as opposed to slowing down and running slower and easier as they age?
All this is sort of making my head spin as I really can't help but think that I might need to flip my training about 180 degrees seemingly.
I am not familuar with Joe Friel nor his philosophy for aging athletes on stressing VO2Max as opposed to simple aerobic/LT. I can tell you that (I turn 45 in December) I am concentrating on higher mileage and more on simple aerobic and some LT. I also do a lot of hill and elevation running. Speed work for me is capped to fartleks and strides. I have been steadily improving for these past 2-1/2 years.1 -
@Stoshew71 Thanks for the Galloway video! That's very encouraging!
That was Jack Daniels, not Galloway.
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Legs were grumpy today. Only able to do 2.25 miles, which disappoints me because I was hoping for another 4. Oh well, that's what I get for kickboxing last night.
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Checking in. I really need to get going with my diet again. So far I ate at maintenance and didn't drop a pound in the last month. Running makes it really easy to maintain. Can't imagine eating at maintenance if I don't run now. I like to eat too much
Date.....Distance..Avg hr/Pace/km
July 1 - 7.7 km - 148/6:09
July 2 - 5.8 km - 147/6:56
July 3 - 11.6km - 151/6:22
July 4 - rest
July 5 - 7.0 km - 149/6:34
July 6 - 6.5 km - 147/6:32
03/04: Bucharest 10k and Family run 48:28
16/04: Color Run Bucharest
17/04: Forest Run 5k 22:05
04/06: Happy Run 5k 21:57
22/07: Bucharest After9Cross 9.5k
28/08: Fox Trail Half Marathon (10k)
18/09: Baneasa Trail Run (10k)
09/10: Bucharest International Marathon (Half)4 -
@lps1dragonfly Yay - another newbie! Welcome! I joined this group at the beginning of June and have found it to be hugely motivating & lots of fun. And I'm learning so much. Thanks for sharing the video @stoshew71.
@ceciliaslater welcome back! Hope you had a good workout.1 -
Going along to a running group tomorrow to see if I like it
My hopes are that it will help motivate me to go further and faster overall. My concern is that I don't currently go as far as they normally do and I am at very bottom end of there pace range. Might as well give it a look.3 -
WhatMeRunning wrote: »@michable - Way to go on that marathon! That last 10k is really quite a chore, no doubt. I can't believe they had an out and back for that last 10k, that seems just cruel! That should be part of the description of the race, about the challenge of being near the finish only to do an out and back for that final 10k to prove you really want it! Awesome job!
So a question for everyone. I have begun adding in regular LT effort runs because they not only "feel good" (strange as that sounds) but they are known to be super helpful. Based on my health and age perhaps this caps my mileage, which was anticipated, and starting to run again in the summer heat also is a limiting distance factor. No big deal, I know mileage will increase. But then I start reading a bit more about Joe Friel running, specifically in regards to aging. I turn 45 this year, and I know that while I have the youth to build strength and endurance I am also doing this against the current of aging which is pushing against my ability to gain strength and endurance. Again, no big deal, just do it, right? Well, I read some blog posts of Joe Friel's specifically about aging and the importance of runs stressing your VO2Max as opposed to simple aerobic endurance and LT running. It perks my interest a bit because, yes, I had planned on having my next run be intervals stressing my VO2Max (actually how I stumbled upon the blog post).
Anyhow, the question I wanted to ask was, has anyone here done this? Going from the standard high mileage endurance training plans that typically use LT as the cap of effort in training to working VO2Max, and what was that experience like? Also, for you aging athletes out there, what do you think of Joe Friels philosophy (if you are aware of it) that aging athletes are better served by maintaining their VO2Max as they age by making sure to regularly exercise at that effort as opposed to slowing down and running slower and easier as they age?
All this is sort of making my head spin as I really can't help but think that I might need to flip my training about 180 degrees seemingly.
I am not familuar with Joe Friel nor his philosophy for aging athletes on stressing VO2Max as opposed to simple aerobic/LT. I can tell you that (I turn 45 in December) I am concentrating on higher mileage and more on simple aerobic and some LT. I also do a lot of hill and elevation running. Speed work for me is capped to fartleks and strides. I have been steadily improving for these past 2-1/2 years.
Well dang Stan! You and I are the same age (I turn 45 in December too).
I am faster now than 2 years ago when I started, for sure. I'm also healthier in probably every way. One thing that has kept me running is simply trying to go into older age as strong as I reasonably can.
What I have read of the book so far is encouraging for any runner in regards to aging whether they train easy/LSD only or 80/20 or any other variation. It seems to be targeted in one aspect towards those who wish to maintain peak fitness and athletic ability into older age. On the other hand though it provides some interesting data for any age or athletic ability. It is eye opening for me and I am looking forward to later chapters that will discuss higher intensity inclusion into training while focused on preventing injury, the #1 focus for older athletes. I think one clue may have been alluded to already about one older athlete's account of having 6-8 week training cycles as opposed to the 4 week training cycles of youth in order to account for the added recovery with age. Just a guess though, I'm not that far along yet. But like @kristinegift probably is (or was) with IT, I am unable to put this book down at the moment.0 -
My workout was AWESOME, thank you! I decided to go to Power Hour (cardio/weights class). I had to modify some things (no jumping jacks, no jump-anything, modified burpees, knee pushups, etc), but I made it through and blasted away 530 calories (according to my HR monitor/fitness tracker, that is). Hopefully I won't be dying of soreness tomorrow. I'm definitely a little shaky in the muscles!7
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@Stoshew71 Thanks for the Galloway video! That's very encouraging!
That was Jack Daniels, not Galloway.
And I appreciated it. it's nice to see the sciencey stuff behind recovery. It's also VERY nice to know that I really can take this whole week off, take next week (hopefully) for getting back into it, and then start my training cycle on the 18th....
.......Which is really what it boils down to for me, I want to make sure I have the training in to run my next HM as well or (hopefully) even better than my first one...Hoping to run it closer to 10:05 miles, which I have done in training....
....Stretching my calves and Quads a LOT today, Quads are already feeling a little better. The 2-3 mile walks 2x a day the last 2 days have helped me loosen up for sure2
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