A stupid question about bulking
bioklutz
Posts: 1,365 Member
I am getting close to starting a bulk and had a question - I apologize if it is a stupid one but I just wanted to make sure my thinking is not flawed.
A little background: I recomped for a little over a year and had some tremendous changes with my body composition - specifically my upper body (I am so pleased with how my shoulders, arms and back have changed!). I am pear shaped and my thighs do not want to give up the fat. I really had a desire to run a bulk though.
For the past 2 months I have been eating in a small deficit in an effort to try to get a little fat off my thighs. I have lost about 3 pounds and am pushing for 1 more pound. I am 5'0" and currently 105 pounds. I don't really think that 1 more pound will do much of anything for my thighs but it will give me a little more weight to gain so I can bulk a tiny bit longer.
I know that the common suggestion is that you have to just keep losing weight in order to get fat off of troubled areas. I am reaching a point where I am unwilling to do that. I can see my breast bone (small boobs so there is not much fat to hide it!) and my rib bones have always been visible but the spacing between them is starting to become much more pronounced.
So on to my question. While bulking is it flawed to think I should focus a lot of my accessory work on my upper body (the thoracic muscles, shoulders) to create a more balanced look? I obviously won't ignore my lower body and will continue with compound lifts to work my entire body.
A little background: I recomped for a little over a year and had some tremendous changes with my body composition - specifically my upper body (I am so pleased with how my shoulders, arms and back have changed!). I am pear shaped and my thighs do not want to give up the fat. I really had a desire to run a bulk though.
For the past 2 months I have been eating in a small deficit in an effort to try to get a little fat off my thighs. I have lost about 3 pounds and am pushing for 1 more pound. I am 5'0" and currently 105 pounds. I don't really think that 1 more pound will do much of anything for my thighs but it will give me a little more weight to gain so I can bulk a tiny bit longer.
I know that the common suggestion is that you have to just keep losing weight in order to get fat off of troubled areas. I am reaching a point where I am unwilling to do that. I can see my breast bone (small boobs so there is not much fat to hide it!) and my rib bones have always been visible but the spacing between them is starting to become much more pronounced.
So on to my question. While bulking is it flawed to think I should focus a lot of my accessory work on my upper body (the thoracic muscles, shoulders) to create a more balanced look? I obviously won't ignore my lower body and will continue with compound lifts to work my entire body.
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I honestly think a re-comp is better for your situation.
The reason, it seems your cut is not working as your expectations. If you bulk it's likely you'll gain you some muscle, but once you to have cut again you'll be back to square one as you're already having an issue with going lower weight.
Bulking and cutting can mess with the mind! If bulking and cutting were so easy everyone would be awesome looking. I'm not trying to make you uneasy, i'm trying to state realistic facts that it's not as easy as it sounds, since without a cut you really cant bulk. Eating more food is easy, but once it's time to cut again people tend to yoyo diet.
I will say genetics play a huge role in where fat and muscle can go, training can help, but only so much.
A good example (although It's not quite the same since you're a female) there are numerous male lifters on YouTube and through out the world that who dead lift 600 pounds and have "no calves" tiny legs.
The reason I even wrote that is males have higher testosterone and naturally can build more muscle, so I hope you get where I am going with that. You might be comparable to that situation just in your upper body. Woman tend to gain muscle easier in the legs and men easier the upper body. I am just assuming this is you, don't quote me.
I see females with a decent lower body mass all the time and a tiny upper torso, it's actual common.
It's really hard to realistically judge how much mass you might be able achieve without a picture though. I would seriously think a bulk through, as fat gain is going to happen. If your heart is set on a bulk do a small caloric surplus, and take it month to month and yes work on your imbalance but be realistic.
Lastly, DO NOT be like most and say I want to gain a number, the number is usually not realistic as one will not know where the fat and muscle will go and that can be a disaster in itself.0 -
I have lifted weights at maintenance and in a deficit. I am tired of recomp. I absolutely want to try lifting in a surplus - I want to add more weight on the bar and it has been painfully slow in the past 4-5 months. I have my heart set on a bulk and cut.1
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I have lifted weights at maintenance and in a deficit. I am tired of recomp. I absolutely want to try lifting in a surplus - I want to add more weight on the bar and it has been painfully slow in the past 4-5 months. I have my heart set on a bulk and cut.
Yeah. Don't be swayed. You know what you want.
I don't know how to answer your question. Obviously you can choose to sculpt your body how you want, especially if aesthetics are your main goal. You've seen my pictures and can see I have very fatty thighs as well. I really really recommend not neglecting them. Though they may get bigger, adding muscle will make them look better and more shapely.
What do you think your body fat% is now? I feel you on not wanting to lose anymore. When I was done my thighs were still fatty but you could see my ribcage all through my back and it was really not cute.2 -
I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.0 -
I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
Yeah post a pic! I want to see!
I felt the same while I was in a surplus. It was the first time I really did some body building. I never saw the point of much in a deficit.0 -
I do think adding some extra upper body work might help get a more balanced look. When I first lost the weight, my upper body was super lean. You could see ribs, breastbone and ribs between and above my boobs, my shoulders were ripped and my face looked gaunt. As I've gained a little, my pecs have filled out (not my boobs at all) and actually cover some of that bone that was showing in the front.0
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I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
I check this thread out yesterday and was hoping that you had posted pics. However, if your main goal is to increase your lifts and muscle mass overall, then a small surplus (clean bulk) is going to be what you want to do.
I believe that you have already answered your own question, but know that to focus on particular body parts is always ok (basically you can do it however you choose to really) but this means that the fat gain is still gonna be an all over thing.
I totally understand about being tired of recomp, and eating less over all and needing to move to the next phase. I recomped for 8 months last year and did not see much of anything. It is sooo slow.
I am nearing 48 years old (1 month away) so the bulk and cut cycles for me are a little more challenging I think. Pick your poision, and just start it and you can always change the goal or direction if you see it not providing what you want. But I recommend once you start the goal do everything you can to finish it. It also gives you a little more time in the bulk phase and less time dieting again to cut, meaning more of a diet break.
I wish I had started mine out a bit more leaner this time so that the fat gain would be a little more minimal. I am starting another cut today and will bulk again during the holiday months. I am hitting body parts twice a week except my legs will be once a week.0 -
Following as my stats are similar, 5'1 maintain 100-105, apple shaped though.
At 62 my attempt at recomp didn't work, gained strength but no definition, so am seriously thinking of doing a clean bulk in the autumn with AllPro.
Cheers, h.
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I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
At 20 % body fat it takes a brave man to bulk, especially if you consider aesthetics important.
You do sound fed up deficit, so for your own sanity I'd try go for a slow "clean" bulk, maybe just a couple hundred calories over TDEE, progressive training an you should see gains with little fat gain.0 -
JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
At 20 % body fat it takes a brave man to bulk, especially if you consider aesthetics important.
You do sound fed up deficit, so for your own sanity I'd try go for a slow "clean" bulk, maybe just a couple hundred calories over TDEE, progressive training an you should see gains with little fat gain.
But the body fat starting point (if you will) is not the same for a woman as it for a man. It is quite doable to do a bulk for a women I would say around 19 - 22 percent body fat. Of course the leaner the better, but def the OP can do a clean bulk at the estimated 20%.
A mans body percentage is much lower than the 20% mentioned here.3 -
JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
At 20 % body fat it takes a brave man to bulk, especially if you consider aesthetics important.
You do sound fed up deficit, so for your own sanity I'd try go for a slow "clean" bulk, maybe just a couple hundred calories over TDEE, progressive training an you should see gains with little fat gain.
But the body fat starting point (if you will) is not the same for a woman as it for a man. It is quite doable to do a bulk for a women I would say around 19 - 22 percent body fat. Of course the leaner the better, but def the OP can do a clean bulk at the estimated 20%.
A mans body percentage is much lower than the 20% mentioned here.
My apologies as you can probably tell from "it takes a brave man to bulk", I completely got the wrong end on this one. Last time i skim read a thread, should probably have clicked by the lack of male responses haha.1 -
JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »JoshuaMcAllister wrote: »I would guess that my body fat is probably around 20%. I might try to get a picture (once the booze weight from last night comes off).
I am going to be honest - aesthetics is important but I really want to increase my lifts and muscle mass as a primary goal. I had more of it when I was younger! I figure why not add some isolation lifts while I have an energy surplus.
At 20 % body fat it takes a brave man to bulk, especially if you consider aesthetics important.
You do sound fed up deficit, so for your own sanity I'd try go for a slow "clean" bulk, maybe just a couple hundred calories over TDEE, progressive training an you should see gains with little fat gain.
But the body fat starting point (if you will) is not the same for a woman as it for a man. It is quite doable to do a bulk for a women I would say around 19 - 22 percent body fat. Of course the leaner the better, but def the OP can do a clean bulk at the estimated 20%.
A mans body percentage is much lower than the 20% mentioned here.
My apologies as you can probably tell from "it takes a brave man to bulk", I completely got the wrong end on this one. Last time i skim read a thread, should probably have clicked by the lack of male responses haha.
nah problem. just wanted to correct for clarity as to others that might read and learn !!
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If you are going to bulk, you MUST work your total body. Don't neglect your lower body in the hopes of evening things out. To get the anabolic growth you're thinking about, you're going to need to make sure all your major muscle groups are used. Keep your nutrition dialed in. Watch your macros carefully, and don't go full bore with it. Make it a slow "clean" bulk. And don't forget cardio. It should still have a place in your program.
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I am still a little bloated from drinking Friday evening...but here goes. I was surprised to find out my swimsuit no longer fits. I had to clip the back for the top and the bottoms are humongous (sorry for the underwear pic)!
I am a little nervous that I am not lean enough to bulk...looking at the pic
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Here's my opinion(s):
1) Based on the pics and based on what you've written so far, you could probably start a bulk from here if you wanted to. I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to cut a bit further, and I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to maintain at this weight. What I mean by this is, you could really go either way. You're not lean enough that I'd say "woah, stop cutting" and you're not overfat where I'd say "yeah, big mistake to bulk from here".
So having said that, you've got to consider diet history (what have you been doing) and preferences (what do you want to do). It seems to me like you want to bulk, so do it.
Just do it carefully, because most people tend to bulk too fast (and females should go quite slow with it) and because they bulk too fast they don't bulk for a long enough time. Then they turn around and cut again because they feel fat.
I'll get into this a bit more near the end of this.
2) The main difference I see is that your bottom half carries more fat which is common for females. This is not a good reason to bias your training towards the upper body. The issue isn't lack of upper body muscle mass OR excess lower body muscle mass. The issue is that your upper body is "about as lean as you prefer" and your lower body is not yet as lean as you would prefer.
If your legs were huge due to being jacked, and your upper body was rather skinny, then you would have a good case for doing a lot of extra upper body work.
If anything, I would tend to think that adding more muscle mass to your legs might cause them to LOOK leaner when you diet back down again since the ratio of fat to muscle at that location could slightly improve.
3) As far as rate of gain, which you didn't ask about but I'm including since my opinions on this might not be quite mainstream -- my experience with this is that most people struggle with fat regain. And if I'm being completely honest my experience also tells me that this is more common and also more pronounced in women and I don't say that with any judgement whatsoever. Combine this with the idea that women just aren't able to put on muscle at the same rate as males and you've got a good case for taking your sweet time with a bulk.
From a mindset standpoint I like an approach where the focus is on training performance primarily. I'm even okay with weight maintenance provided the individual is eating enough to train hard and recover adequately, and strength gains are coming along in the gym. And I'd put a lot of focus on the performance aspects of the program.
I sort of rambled there. Let me know if you have any questions in case I made it worse lol.5 -
Here's my opinion(s):
1) Based on the pics and based on what you've written so far, you could probably start a bulk from here if you wanted to. I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to cut a bit further, and I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to maintain at this weight. What I mean by this is, you could really go either way. You're not lean enough that I'd say "woah, stop cutting" and you're not overfat where I'd say "yeah, big mistake to bulk from here".
So having said that, you've got to consider diet history (what have you been doing) and preferences (what do you want to do). It seems to me like you want to bulk, so do it.
Just do it carefully, because most people tend to bulk too fast (and females should go quite slow with it) and because they bulk too fast they don't bulk for a long enough time. Then they turn around and cut again because they feel fat.
I'll get into this a bit more near the end of this.
2) The main difference I see is that your bottom half carries more fat which is common for females. This is not a good reason to bias your training towards the upper body. The issue isn't lack of upper body muscle mass OR excess lower body muscle mass. The issue is that your upper body is "about as lean as you prefer" and your lower body is not yet as lean as you would prefer.
If your legs were huge due to being jacked, and your upper body was rather skinny, then you would have a good case for doing a lot of extra upper body work.
If anything, I would tend to think that adding more muscle mass to your legs might cause them to LOOK leaner when you diet back down again since the ratio of fat to muscle at that location could slightly improve.
3) As far as rate of gain, which you didn't ask about but I'm including since my opinions on this might not be quite mainstream -- my experience with this is that most people struggle with fat regain. And if I'm being completely honest my experience also tells me that this is more common and also more pronounced in women and I don't say that with any judgement whatsoever. Combine this with the idea that women just aren't able to put on muscle at the same rate as males and you've got a good case for taking your sweet time with a bulk.
From a mindset standpoint I like an approach where the focus is on training performance primarily. I'm even okay with weight maintenance provided the individual is eating enough to train hard and recover adequately, and strength gains are coming along in the gym. And I'd put a lot of focus on the performance aspects of the program.
I sort of rambled there. Let me know if you have any questions in case I made it worse lol.
Thank you that is so helpful!
I may try to keep the deficit going for another month just so I get a touch leaner and then start bulking. The xylophone chest has been freaking me out...plus hungry!
For my diet I usually eat around 95-110 grams protein, 50-60 grams of fat, the rest in carbs. Right now I am eating around 1650-1700 calories and probably am missing carbs because of the deficit.
I will definitely take it slow once I start bulking. Do you have a typical time frame that you recommend?0 -
Here's my opinion(s):
1) Based on the pics and based on what you've written so far, you could probably start a bulk from here if you wanted to. I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to cut a bit further, and I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to maintain at this weight. What I mean by this is, you could really go either way. You're not lean enough that I'd say "woah, stop cutting" and you're not overfat where I'd say "yeah, big mistake to bulk from here".
So having said that, you've got to consider diet history (what have you been doing) and preferences (what do you want to do). It seems to me like you want to bulk, so do it.
Just do it carefully, because most people tend to bulk too fast (and females should go quite slow with it) and because they bulk too fast they don't bulk for a long enough time. Then they turn around and cut again because they feel fat.
I'll get into this a bit more near the end of this.
2) The main difference I see is that your bottom half carries more fat which is common for females. This is not a good reason to bias your training towards the upper body. The issue isn't lack of upper body muscle mass OR excess lower body muscle mass. The issue is that your upper body is "about as lean as you prefer" and your lower body is not yet as lean as you would prefer.
If your legs were huge due to being jacked, and your upper body was rather skinny, then you would have a good case for doing a lot of extra upper body work.
If anything, I would tend to think that adding more muscle mass to your legs might cause them to LOOK leaner when you diet back down again since the ratio of fat to muscle at that location could slightly improve.
3) As far as rate of gain, which you didn't ask about but I'm including since my opinions on this might not be quite mainstream -- my experience with this is that most people struggle with fat regain. And if I'm being completely honest my experience also tells me that this is more common and also more pronounced in women and I don't say that with any judgement whatsoever. Combine this with the idea that women just aren't able to put on muscle at the same rate as males and you've got a good case for taking your sweet time with a bulk.
From a mindset standpoint I like an approach where the focus is on training performance primarily. I'm even okay with weight maintenance provided the individual is eating enough to train hard and recover adequately, and strength gains are coming along in the gym. And I'd put a lot of focus on the performance aspects of the program.
I sort of rambled there. Let me know if you have any questions in case I made it worse lol.
Thank you that is so helpful!
I may try to keep the deficit going for another month just so I get a touch leaner and then start bulking. The xylophone chest has been freaking me out...plus hungry! For my diet I usually eat around 95-110 grams protein, 50-60 grams of fat, the rest in carbs. Right now I am eating around 1650-1700 calories and probably am missing carbs because of the deficit.
I will definitely take it slow once I start bulking. Do you have a typical time frame that you recommend?
Dang...your calories. Do you do a decent amount of cardio?0 -
I wouldn't say I do a ton of cardio. 30 minutes 3 or 4 times a week - it might be 600 extra calories a week? I spend most of the day at work on my feet (I would guess that is where a lot of extra calories are burned).0
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Here's my opinion(s):
1) Based on the pics and based on what you've written so far, you could probably start a bulk from here if you wanted to. I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to cut a bit further, and I ALSO don't think it would be unreasonable to maintain at this weight. What I mean by this is, you could really go either way. You're not lean enough that I'd say "woah, stop cutting" and you're not overfat where I'd say "yeah, big mistake to bulk from here".
So having said that, you've got to consider diet history (what have you been doing) and preferences (what do you want to do). It seems to me like you want to bulk, so do it.
Just do it carefully, because most people tend to bulk too fast (and females should go quite slow with it) and because they bulk too fast they don't bulk for a long enough time. Then they turn around and cut again because they feel fat.
I'll get into this a bit more near the end of this.
2) The main difference I see is that your bottom half carries more fat which is common for females. This is not a good reason to bias your training towards the upper body. The issue isn't lack of upper body muscle mass OR excess lower body muscle mass. The issue is that your upper body is "about as lean as you prefer" and your lower body is not yet as lean as you would prefer.
If your legs were huge due to being jacked, and your upper body was rather skinny, then you would have a good case for doing a lot of extra upper body work.
If anything, I would tend to think that adding more muscle mass to your legs might cause them to LOOK leaner when you diet back down again since the ratio of fat to muscle at that location could slightly improve.
3) As far as rate of gain, which you didn't ask about but I'm including since my opinions on this might not be quite mainstream -- my experience with this is that most people struggle with fat regain. And if I'm being completely honest my experience also tells me that this is more common and also more pronounced in women and I don't say that with any judgement whatsoever. Combine this with the idea that women just aren't able to put on muscle at the same rate as males and you've got a good case for taking your sweet time with a bulk.
From a mindset standpoint I like an approach where the focus is on training performance primarily. I'm even okay with weight maintenance provided the individual is eating enough to train hard and recover adequately, and strength gains are coming along in the gym. And I'd put a lot of focus on the performance aspects of the program.
I sort of rambled there. Let me know if you have any questions in case I made it worse lol.
Thank you that is so helpful!
I may try to keep the deficit going for another month just so I get a touch leaner and then start bulking. The xylophone chest has been freaking me out...plus hungry! For my diet I usually eat around 95-110 grams protein, 50-60 grams of fat, the rest in carbs. Right now I am eating around 1650-1700 calories and probably am missing carbs because of the deficit.
I will definitely take it slow once I start bulking. Do you have a typical time frame that you recommend?
EDIT: Dammit I can't give short answers. I'm going to add more to this later.
I prefer to consider a few things when making that determination. When I'm coaching others these are things I tend to monitor through a combination of conversation and photographs:
1) How does the individual feel about his/her level of bodyfat?
2) How long has the bulk gone on and is this actual fat gain vs bloat?
3) How much total weight have they gained and at what rate?
4) Are they pushing past levels of body-fat that I'd generally regard as a good range to stay in for bulk/cut cycles?
5) Is this someone who had obesity in the past?
A very short answer that tends to get thrown around that, for a short answer is "decent" would be "bulk until you're borderline uncomfortable with your level of bodyfat"
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My previous answer was just about totally useless so I'll try to actually be helpful lol:
Slower rate of gain = less fat accumulation = longer bulk duration.
Faster rate of gain = faster fat accumulation = shorter bulk duration because you will feel fat and eventually get fat and want to diet back down again.
If you go too fast, you could end that bulk in 4 weeks which is a big mistake that most people make especially their first time.
If you go too slow, you could end up not maximizing your rate of muscle gain but you also mitigate fat accumulation and end up staying in a small surplus for a longer period of time. To ME, this is a superior choice for many (NOT ALL) people, meaning staying on the side of slower rate of gain is probably the side to be on.
I don't think it's unreasonable to bulk for 3-6 months but I will also add that you can find other reputable fitness professionals that wouldn't agree with this.1 -
Thank you @SideSteel! What you wrote makes a lot of sense to me. I really appreciate the advice!
I would probably want to start cutting around March (at the latest) so that would be closer to 6 months. I am thinking of aiming somewhere around 0.25 - 0.33 pounds/week. I will keep an eye on recovery and performance and adjust from there.0 -
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Oh my...time slipped by really fast! My goal was to start bulking in October. About 3 weeks ago it occurred to me that October is almost here and I had not transitioned to my maintenance calories yet! I am pretty close to eating my maintenance calories now (I would need a few weeks of monitoring my weight to know for sure).
Do you think it is better to hold off a few weeks or just say F it and jump in?
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Oh my...time slipped by really fast! My goal was to start bulking in October. About 3 weeks ago it occurred to me that October is almost here and I had not transitioned to my maintenance calories yet! I am pretty close to eating my maintenance calories now (I would need a few weeks of monitoring my weight to know for sure).
Do you think it is better to hold off a few weeks or just say F it and jump in?
If you're pretty close to maintenance, say 200? Jump to maintenance this week and just add the extra 250 next week. Why not? It's really up to you. You could add 100 this week, 100 the next, then jump...lots of options. In 5 months it's not really going to matter lol2 -
I had my maintenance calories pretty much nailed down before starting, but found that I still had to tinker a bit to get a slow even gain going. If you're in the ballpark with numbers now, I say just do it because you might find yourself having to play around a little more once you get going anyway.1
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Great! I am fairly confident in what my new maintenance calories are - I just haven't verified it.
Also - next weekend we are having some Lou Malnati's (deep dish pizza). It just seems like the perfect time to start!1 -
Great! I am fairly confident in what my new maintenance calories are - I just haven't verified it.
Also - next weekend we are having some Lou Malnati's (deep dish pizza). It just seems like the perfect time to start!
I am very jealous again .. Enjoy the deep dish.. post if room for 1 more.. 0
This discussion has been closed.
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