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'The Obesity Code: Unlocking the Secrets of Weight Loss' by Jason Fung
Replies
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Sassie11_11 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are on facebook and I don't know how to load just the video here but Stephanie Dodier did a live interview with Dr Jason Fong, it was very informative. Here is the link to her page:
https://www.facebook.com/StephanieDodiernutrition
I am on a Keto diet. CICO does not work for me. I like the attitude of Dr Fong which is to trust your own body. Our bodies communicate with us all the time. That resonates with me. And it works!
Like many people, you are confusing matters by considering CICO as a "diet" rather than the driving principle behind all successful weight loss diets.
It's like saying "I can take 6 carrots and evenly divide them into three portions of two, but mathematics does not work for me."
math is for losers, and everyone knows it is a trick invented by the bourgeoisie to enslave mankind...5 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.5 -
Sassie11_11 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are on facebook and I don't know how to load just the video here but Stephanie Dodier did a live interview with Dr Jason Fong, it was very informative. Here is the link to her page:
https://www.facebook.com/StephanieDodiernutrition
I am on a Keto diet. CICO does not work for me. I like the attitude of Dr Fong which is to trust your own body. Our bodies communicate with us all the time. That resonates with me. And it works!
@Sassie11_11 the longer I eat Keto the more I can trust my own body. The way I have backed away from meat without knowing it amazes me.
While CICO is not a diet I know what you mean. My cravings managed me before I found the right macro that let me manage my CICO. Cutting out all sugar and all forms of all types of grains and keeping total daily carbs <50 grams is all that I have to do to now manage my cravings hence my CI. Knowing I never have be be worried about being obese again is such a freedom at age 65.1 -
Thinking CICO means you don't change what you eat (other than reducing calories) just makes no sense. You don't have to, but losing from reducing calories certainly can and usually does mean changing what one eats some or even a lot. (And CICO isn't a diet at all, of course.)2
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I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
Yes, this definitely makes more sense.1 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
Calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake does work IF people stick to it.
So it's more of an adherence issue I would think. So then at that point yes changing your way of eating to help you stick to eating lower calories makes sense.2 -
CICO is still at the center of ANY weight loss program. People will use different programs to achieve them, but without a deficit, it's practically impossible to lose weight.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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geneticexpectations wrote: »His methods are not special or unique. These methods are all over the literature and many successful physicians use them. (So really, you can conveniently visit the clinic of any LCHF/IF-promoting/lifestyle-preventative-minded physician who likes to read things on pubmed and apply them).
And yet, he doesn't hesitate to repackage the work of others, give it a catchy name, and ask us to write checks to buy his book. Which contains material that's been covered in MFP forums many times over the past year.
I think I'm just jealous -- i haven't found my get rich quick scheme yet.
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I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
I am not sure about that. Even Dr. Fung believe CICO is wrong and his arguement is based on a cookie vs a meal of fish and veggies. It seriously demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of what CICO is.
Many people truly think CICO is a diet. A diet particularly about eat junk food in lower portions and wonder why they fail at losing weight. Its even more complicated when you find out that logging issues and accuracy are at the heart of the problem.5 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
I am not sure about that. Even Dr. Fung believe CICO is wrong and his arguement is based on a cookie vs a meal of fish and veggies. It seriously demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of what CICO is.
Many people truly think CICO is a diet. A diet particularly about eat junk food in lower portions and wonder why they fail at losing weight. Its even more complicated when you find out that logging issues and accuracy are at the heart of the problem.
I think most, including Fung, know you can't lose weight without a deficit. I think Fung's point is that certain foods will alter your CO, and even affect CI, in ways that won't match your expectations.
I can eat more keto than I can on a moderate carb diet. I know some don't believe it but that's how it works out. At the same CI I might lose weight or maintain or gain depending on my foods. It isn't a huge difference but it amounts to a few pounds... and less frustration when you can just tweak your food choices and suddenly you start losing.
But yes, many think CICO is a diet. They think as long as their CI is less than ther calculated CO, they can eat anything. CO changes a bit with food choices and how frequently you eat though. Not a lot, but some.1 -
CICO is still at the center of ANY weight loss program. People will use different programs to achieve them, but without a deficit, it's practically impossible to lose weight.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's actually eloquently put. What each of us does, how each of us approaches our diet is individual.3 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
I am not sure about that. Even Dr. Fung believe CICO is wrong and his arguement is based on a cookie vs a meal of fish and veggies. It seriously demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of what CICO is.
Many people truly think CICO is a diet. A diet particularly about eat junk food in lower portions and wonder why they fail at losing weight. Its even more complicated when you find out that logging issues and accuracy are at the heart of the problem.
I think most, including Fung, know you can't lose weight without a deficit. I think Fung's point is that certain foods will alter your CO, and even affect CI, in ways that won't match your expectations.
I can eat more keto than I can on a moderate carb diet. I know some don't believe it but that's how it works out. At the same CI I might lose weight or maintain or gain depending on my foods. It isn't a huge difference but it amounts to a few pounds... and less frustration when you can just tweak your food choices and suddenly you start losing.
But yes, many think CICO is a diet. They think as long as their CI is less than ther calculated CO, they can eat anything. CO changes a bit with food choices and how frequently you eat though. Not a lot, but some.
Based on the few articles that I have read, i am not sure i agree with your assessment on Fung. I could be wrong but the way i read the article and how he uses examples, it would demonstrate a lack of understanding. In fact, he uses the same typically examples of moat who have a profound understanding of what CICO actually is.
And i have no doubt that you can eat more on Keto than on a high carb diet. And i have no doubt that your CO is higher by doing so. Its common with those with IR and PCOS. The handful of study would suggest reductions in metabolim in those cases.
Eta: but you already know i know that..
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I watched a Youtube video of Fung's in which he says fasting daily (say fasting 23 hours within a 24 hour period - eating within a one hour window per day) will put one into regular ketosis. No special Way of Eating or carb restriction is necessary.
In other videos he advocates low carb not only for those who don't fast, but also for those who do.
So I'm not really sure where he stands as of late. Whether, according to him, fasting regularly is an acceptable replacement for eating three low carb meals a day. Or whether, even while fasting, low carb is what he recommends during the eating window.
Maybe that's why he calls it a secret code.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »His methods are not special or unique. These methods are all over the literature and many successful physicians use them. (So really, you can conveniently visit the clinic of any LCHF/IF-promoting/lifestyle-preventative-minded physician who likes to read things on pubmed and apply them).
And yet, he doesn't hesitate to repackage the work of others, give it a catchy name, and ask us to write checks to buy his book. Which contains material that's been covered in MFP forums many times over the past year.
I think I'm just jealous -- i haven't found my get rich quick scheme yet.
He is a nephrologist. They do dialysis. He easily bills over 1 mil a year, just like any nephrologist who does dialysis.
But of course, those are facts, and what good are those. So yes, clearly, he's got the desperation for a get rich quick scheme. Stay Away!!!!
Those patients we refer that come back not needing their meds, totally a hallucination. It's like someone slipped us magic mushrooms!!1 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »His methods are not special or unique. These methods are all over the literature and many successful physicians use them. (So really, you can conveniently visit the clinic of any LCHF/IF-promoting/lifestyle-preventative-minded physician who likes to read things on pubmed and apply them).
And yet, he doesn't hesitate to repackage the work of others, give it a catchy name, and ask us to write checks to buy his book. Which contains material that's been covered in MFP forums many times over the past year.
I think I'm just jealous -- i haven't found my get rich quick scheme yet.
He is a nephrologist. They do dialysis. He easily bills over 1 mil a year, just like any nephrologist who does dialysis.
But of course, those are facts, and what good are those. So yes, clearly, he's got the desperation for a get rich quick scheme. Stay Away!!!!
Those patients we refer that come back not needing their meds, totally a hallucination. It's like someone slipped us magic mushrooms!!
Do you know how much money is in selling books to desperate people? More than 1 million.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »His methods are not special or unique. These methods are all over the literature and many successful physicians use them. (So really, you can conveniently visit the clinic of any LCHF/IF-promoting/lifestyle-preventative-minded physician who likes to read things on pubmed and apply them).
And yet, he doesn't hesitate to repackage the work of others, give it a catchy name, and ask us to write checks to buy his book. Which contains material that's been covered in MFP forums many times over the past year.
I think I'm just jealous -- i haven't found my get rich quick scheme yet.
He is a nephrologist. They do dialysis. He easily bills over 1 mil a year, just like any nephrologist who does dialysis.
But of course, those are facts, and what good are those. So yes, clearly, he's got the desperation for a get rich quick scheme. Stay Away!!!!
Those patients we refer that come back not needing their meds, totally a hallucination. It's like someone slipped us magic mushrooms!!
Do you know how much money is in selling books to desperate people? More than 1 million.
Ah, but HE's not the one that's desperate. Key distinction.
If I wrote a book that could reverse diabetes to people desperate to do so and pad my bank account (with insignificant cost to the individual), I would do so with glee. Total win-win. Thankfully where I come from we are taught not to feel guilty for financial success. That's what allows you to be.... successful.
I personally seize additional business opportunities that patients benefit from and yes I make more money doing so. Guilt is zero.
And it should all be clean, that goes without saying.
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I find that my antennas go up to alert me to a red flag when I see that someone has lots of advice and opinions without any indication of real world success translation. In this day and age, this is highly prevalent, in the form of the Internet Warrior.
For all you know, I could be one, and you could think that I am lying through my teeth, and unfortunately I don't really care, but this guy we are talking about on the other hand, who has written a book and has international recognition for clinical success (and is driving change to dietary guidelines at the national level) should be given a greater audience than a stream of Internet Warriors posting links and gif's.
I think the majority of onlookers recognize such forum patterns as red-flaggish as well. That being said, there are many other forums where this does not happen, so this could be unique to the vocal members of this forum's community.7 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
yea, but they are still in a calorie deficit, period.2 -
I honestly believe that people who say "CICO doesn't work for me" usually mean that calculating their TDEE and reducing all calories (in moderation) to eat at a lower caloric intake did not work for them. Sometimes people need to make dietary changes in order to get the results they want.
Every body is different.
yea, but they are still in a calorie deficit, period.
I realize that. My point is that using a simple TDEE calculator does not take into account all the factors that will affect a person's CO or CI. Because of that it may feel like "CICO doesn't work" because they are not losing when others would be.3 -
FYI he's a Canadian nephrologist. So nope, he's not billing over a million a year. In the public health care system we make 1/2 what dentists do with longer hours in the office.geneticexpectations wrote: »He is a nephrologist. They do dialysis. He easily bills over 1 mil a year, just like any nephrologist who does dialysis.
But of course, those are facts, and what good are those. So yes, clearly, he's got the desperation for a get rich quick scheme. Stay Away!!!!
Those patients we refer that come back not needing their meds, totally a hallucination. It's like someone slipped us magic mushrooms!!5 -
I'm not great at interpreting most studies but this one shows a vegetarian diet improves diabetes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221319/
Full disclosure I'm a pescatarian - I don't eat meat for various reasons. I'm not advocating or against any particular diet but I see in these forums that Keto is the key for diabetes but if I'm reading this study right a vegetarian diet is also beneficial.
Am I missing something? It seems Fung is revered for Keto/diabetes but it looks as if there are other options just as good.
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You're missing a lot. First, it wasn't a study - it was a review. A review of six studies they cherry-picked out of 477 they looked at ...leanjogreen18 wrote: »I'm not great at interpreting most studies but this one shows a vegetarian diet improves diabetes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221319/
Full disclosure I'm a pescatarian - I don't eat meat for various reasons. I'm not advocating or against any particular diet but I see in these forums that Keto is the key for diabetes but if I'm reading this study right a vegetarian diet is also beneficial.
Am I missing something? It seems Fung is revered for Keto/diabetes but it looks as if there are other options just as good.
Here's their results:"Consumption of vegetarian diets was associated with a significant reduction in HbA1c [−0.39 percentage point; 95% confidence interval (CI), −0.62 to −0.15; P=0.001; I2=3.0; P for heterogeneity =0.389], and a non-significant reduction in fasting blood glucose concentration (−0.36 mmol/L; 95% CI, −1.04 to 0.32; P=0.301; I2=0; P for heterogeneity =0.710), compared with consumption of comparator diets."
First, the reduction in HbA1c was - in a word - pathetic. -.39 percentage points for a diabetic isn't much, especially when you see that LCHF diets show significantly higher reductions in addition to reduction or elimination of medication.
The science is quite clear on this - dietary carbohydrate restriction has the greatest effect on reducing blood glucose levels.
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(14)00332-3/fulltext
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-16
There's dozens more studies and reviews on the research.
What I wish that proponents of vegetarian diets would do is at-least acknowledge that you CAN significantly improve diabetes if you eat a low-carb/high-fat vegetarian diet - it's especially easy if ovo-, lacto- and/or pesco-tarian.
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BTW Dr. Fung only quotes studies from human testing, not studies based on animal experiments.0
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Thanks for the explanation.
Just throwing out a different option not advocating vegetarianism.0 -
albertabeefy wrote: »
You're missing a lot. First, it wasn't a study - it was a review. A review of six studies they cherry-picked out of 477 they looked at ...leanjogreen18 wrote: »I'm not great at interpreting most studies but this one shows a vegetarian diet improves diabetes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4221319/
Full disclosure I'm a pescatarian - I don't eat meat for various reasons. I'm not advocating or against any particular diet but I see in these forums that Keto is the key for diabetes but if I'm reading this study right a vegetarian diet is also beneficial.
Am I missing something? It seems Fung is revered for Keto/diabetes but it looks as if there are other options just as good.
Here's their results:"Consumption of vegetarian diets was associated with a significant reduction in HbA1c [−0.39 percentage point; 95% confidence interval (CI), −0.62 to −0.15; P=0.001; I2=3.0; P for heterogeneity =0.389], and a non-significant reduction in fasting blood glucose concentration (−0.36 mmol/L; 95% CI, −1.04 to 0.32; P=0.301; I2=0; P for heterogeneity =0.710), compared with consumption of comparator diets."
First, the reduction in HbA1c was - in a word - pathetic. -.39 percentage points for a diabetic isn't much, especially when you see that LCHF diets show significantly higher reductions in addition to reduction or elimination of medication.
The science is quite clear on this - dietary carbohydrate restriction has the greatest effect on reducing blood glucose levels.
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(14)00332-3/fulltext
https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-16
There's dozens more studies and reviews on the research.
What I wish that proponents of vegetarian diets would do is at-least acknowledge that you CAN significantly improve diabetes if you eat a low-carb/high-fat vegetarian diet - it's especially easy if ovo-, lacto- and/or pesco-tarian.
After eating LCHF for over two years I have found my love for red meat has really crashed because it no longer tastes desirable for some reason.0 -
I wasn't suggesting you were advocating it ... but the authors of your article certainly do - they're all PCRM/PETA funded.leanjogreen18 wrote: »Thanks for the explanation.
Just throwing out a different option not advocating vegetarianism.
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Which, when dealing with humans - is the best option. But it *does* possibly miss some things that should be looked at.canadjineh wrote: »BTW Dr. Fung only quotes studies from human testing, not studies based on animal experiments.
Animal studies can be valuable depending on the methodology, and the animals used. Too often though people cling to study results that can't be extrapolated to humans for various reasons.
The most-recent ridiculous study conclusions I looked at, a blogger was vehemently opposed to artificial sweeteners, saying they destroyed 50% of your gut flora ... and the study he linked fed up-to 1000mg/kg of body weight per day of Splenda to rats. The researchers noticed gut flora issues at "moderate" intakes of 300mg/kg of body weight per day. FYI, for humans that use Splenda frequently, the average intake is between 1.6 and 5mg/kg of body weight/day (depending on source) - so we're talking of Splenda intake of between 60x and 625x the average human use here. Extrapolating any study on rats to humans should be done with caution, but extrapolating this study to humans is insane.0 -
albertabeefy wrote: »
I wasn't suggesting you were advocating it ... but the authors of your article certainly do - they're all PCRM/PETA funded.leanjogreen18 wrote: »Thanks for the explanation.
Just throwing out a different option not advocating vegetarianism.
I linked a study I didn't think there was any PETA involvement. Hum I must read again.0 -
Again, what you linked wasn't a study - it was a review / article. To suggest there was no PETA involvement shows a lack of understanding of what the PCRM (who authored the study) is ...leanjogreen18 wrote: »I linked a study I didn't think there was any PETA involvement. Hum I must read again.
About some of the authors:
Yoko Yokoyama: Researcher, PCRM
Susan M. Levin: Director of Nutrition, PCRM
Neal Barnard: Founder & President, PCRM
Neal Barnard founded the PCRM with PETA money, and the PCRM maintains that close PETA relationship ... https://www.consumerfreedom.com/press-releases/188-consumer-group-calls-on-vegan-diet-doctor-neal-barnard-to-come-clean-about-his-animal-rights-agenda/
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/23-physicians-committee-for-responsible-medicine/0 -
Ok gotcha. I know not what I talk about:).
I have a friend who is managing her diabetes with a vegan low fat diet ( I erroneously thought vegetarian) and that's why I linked that article. I've since talked to her a little more about it. She hated Keto and switched to vegan low fat based off this...
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777
She was not a vegetarian/vegan prior, she is doing this only for health.
What I tried to say is there are other options out there that seem to work for some folks. Perhaps my wording and article I linked was not the best but I stated in my OP I don't advocate any diet and I'm not the best at interpreting studies, nor articles on studies.
I'm not a member of PETA! I don't eat meat for various reasons ethical not being one of them.
I just think options are nice as a one size doesn't fit all.0 -
Many people, especially vegans, link to that study. What many fail to consider is the source (Neal Barnard again), and the methodology.leanjogreen18 wrote: »Ok gotcha. I know not what I talk about:).
I have a friend who is managing her diabetes with a vegan low fat diet ( I erroneously thought vegetarian) and that's why I linked that article. I've since talked to her a little more about it. She hated Keto and switched to vegan low fat based off this...
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777
She was not a vegetarian/vegan prior, she is doing this only for health.
My problem with the methodology is it was only with moderate diabetics (none with high HbA1c) and only comparing to the ADA recommended diet - which is low-fat/high-carb and terrible for diabetics.
The problem with the results are that ... sure, the vegan diet (which eliminated refined/processed carbs) performed better than the ADA diet, but only reduced HbA1c from 8.0% baseline at start to 7.1%. A -0.9% change . FYI, being above 7.0% still isn't even CONTROLLED, let alone reversed (which is what his book claims his diet does).
A Japanese outpatient study testing a 30% carbohydrate diet (which is reduced, but not really low-carb at all) reduced patients from a baseline of 10.9% HbA1c to 7.4%HbA1c ... a -3.5% change.
A 2 year study of a diet "loosely restricting carbohydrates" (simple carbohydrate reduction) vs. a conventional diet for Type2 diabetics is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17980451 ... they found that even though the CARD (carbohydrate-reduced diet) group started with higher HbA1c (7.4% vs 7.1%) than the CD (conventional diet group), after 2 years the CARD group had improved to 6.7% whereas the CD group HbA1c INCREASED to 7.5%.
Barnard will never conduct a study comparing his diet to a low-carb/high-fat diet. To date no studies on very-low-carbohydrate diets has shown them to be anything but superior in virtually every way to a 'conventional' low-fat or even vegan diet.
There are other options, absolutely! Including not eating red meat if that's what you want ... For diabetics that don't eat red meat - it's proven that one can improve glycemic control as well as CV risk markers by adopting a carbohydrate-restricted low-carb vegetarian (of ovo- lacto- pesco- varieties) diet. Or even a low-carb vegan one (but that's more difficult).leanjogreen18 wrote: »What I tried to say is there are other options out there that seem to work for some folks. Perhaps my wording and article I linked was not the best but I stated in my OP I don't advocate any diet and I'm not the best at interpreting studies, nor articles on studies.
You're correct. I just don't like Barnards animal-activist propaganda.leanjogreen18 wrote: »I'm not a member of PETA! I don't eat meat for various reasons ethical not being one of them.
I just think options are nice as a one size doesn't fit all.
Honestly, if vegans and vegetarians WANT to show their diet healthy for diabetes, they should create a carbohydrate-restricted veg diet and then formulate a study that tests a carbohydrate-restricted vegetarian diet against both a 'conventional' (ie: American Diabetes Assoc.) diet AND a standard LCHF diet. The vegetarian diet would look much-more promising, and give people a real option for those that want it. A low-fat vegetarian diet, however, will never be that great at improving diabetes.
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