Do you ever wonder why you're never satisfied?
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The primary things that drove me away were the rampant antisemitism (along with a dismissal of any other religion), anti-gay attitudes, false humility, and arrogance. I think that all could be boiled down to arrogance though. The number of truly thoughtful, intelligent, and sincere Christians are swamped by the others. The "love thy neighbor," and the "greatest of these is love" points seem to be lost to most. I've found far more love and acceptance among agnostics.I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Most people see The Son as a person and someone outside of themselves. They think being asked to direct their heart and attention to Him as directing those things to something or someone outside of themselves.
That's why Buddhism, as a religion, has more members than ever outside Eastern Asia. Membership is on the rise in the West because it's a self-based religion, or at least it's approached that way by the Zen community (which I've been closely aligned with for 25 years) and by the peripheral Western enthusiasts of the Tibetan traditions. I'm not advocating a self based religious approach, as I interpret Buddhism as a brilliant philosophy and a very effective form of psychology, not a religion or a spiritual system. Like I said, I'm Christian.
Also, as a Christian, I don't talk about Christianity to those hostile towards it and prone to mock it. I think Jesus would approve of that and there's a piece of Scripture in Matthew that backs that up quite nicely. I'd like to quote it here but that would be considered inflammatory so I won't. So I don't talk about it on MFP and the powers that be that moderate the discussion boards probably appreciate that. Also, the Christian Groups here on MFP are mostly sound bitish and include very brief prayers and short declarations of gratitude. They don't include cerebral discussions on the topic of Christianity or any debates at all with Non Christians. So for as long as this discussion is allowed to remain, I'm grateful for it.
But, getting back to what you posted above OP, hypothetically, if you were wanting to convey these ideas, especially to nominal Christians as #3 suggests, or to those folks who don't like hearing Jesus talk, maybe using the term Holy Spirit would be more palatable? Hearing about God generally annoys people, hearing about Jesus generally enrages people but hearing about the Holy Spirit usually seems more tolerable to seculars and people of different religions.
Personally, I think Christianity without deep study, meditation, and prayer discipline is very difficult to put into words. Thomas Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, G.K. Chesterton, Thomas Merton and Edith Stein do a good job though - but deep study, meditation and prayer discipline were at the foundation of their work. And those are hard acts to follow.
What do you think?
I appreciate your sentiment (sorry don't know your name!)
Im well aware of how people feel about Christianity, God,.Jesus etc. I live in a city that Is more secular than most American cities.
You'll notice that invmy initial post, I don't make direct reference to any of those names. For the sake of answerering/responding to comments, I had to use them.
I think Holy Spirit is unhelpful for two reasons:
1. The role of the Spirit is to point people to the Son. So to focus on the Spirit in favour of the Son would actually grieve the Spirit.
2. The apostles focused on the Son - after all, it is the work of.the cross that enables restoration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, was sent by the Father through the intercession of Jesus and is called The Spirit of Truth. I don't think the Spirit of Truth is grieved by anyone communicating with it directly nor do I think the Spirit of Truth came into existence only after the birth of Jesus. It was there before and accessible through the Father from time immemorial, as the Jewish prophets conveyed quite effectively.
Like I said, in my opinion, the discussion of a Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a very difficult concept to put into words monotheistically.
But it's also a blessing if looked at from a generous perspective. Christianity was modeled to me by people who were little more than sociopaths and consequently I became an atheist, then an agnostic, for decades and long before it was cool and mainstream. I actually had an apartment lease rescinded after admitting my atheism to my would-be landlord and people I adored at work refused to sit at the lunch table with me after I admitted it, which broke my heart because I was only a teenager at the time.
The Holy Spirit aspect of the Trinity is what enabled me to re-connect to my Christianity and to study the teachings of the Son directly from Scripture. Now I'm very interested in Old Testament too and watch a few Rabbis on Youtube as a supplement to my Christian study. All three roads Father, Son and Holy Spirit lead to the Source in my experience. Getting heavy handed with Jesus talk can really backfire, if helping people is what you want to do. Easing people into it, gradually, if you want to evangelize, would probably be far more effective. The idea of a Holy Spirit is much easier to digest. And if it opens the mind to The Christ so be it. Things happen in their own time, or maybe not at all.2 -
I mostly feel satisfied, satisfied with my life the way it is since making it through some pretty tough times. Iv came a long way and am now doing pretty well.
The only reason il never feel complete satisfaction 100% is because of the world we live in and all the horrible things that go on in it, murder, cruelty war to mention but a few. We don't live in a perfect world so complete satisfaction is difficult to achieve at times.
I don't call myself Christian cos I don't go to church or read the bible or prey to Jesus or God, but I do ask for strength at times but I don't know who I'm asking, all I know is I do believe in a higher being, an energy an all encompassing love as it were. I also ask for help for anyone in need and I don't feel daft doing it.
In the past when going through really tough times I did find myself wearing my cross, a necklace with a small cross on it, probably because I associate it with all that is good, I associate it with peace love and protection. It satisfied me.
I do think about all the evil cruel people in the world and I think if only they had some more peace and love in thier heart the world wouldn't be such a horrible place sometimes so I do think there is a place for religious teachings and scripture when it's promoting well being etc. Not a fan of hardcore religion though I think it can make some people really narrow minded and even fanatical, neither are things a religion should be when it's about love peace and understanding.
And at times when you don't feel satisfied you should really count your blessings, easier said than done but it's what I do now, or at least try my best.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Matthew 7:1-3:
7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Thanks for the rebuke but I'm not sure that I judged people to honest... If someone has cancer, the most appropriate thing a doctor can do is to tell them. It may be unpleasant, but It is reality.
I think we all (myself included) have spiritual cancer there is one cure for it.
Says "I'm not sure I judged people," and then says "I think we all have spiritual cancer." It seems to me that if you have spiritual cancer then you should spend more time on you before proceeding to accuse everyone ease of your own failings. It's called "humility," and it's something Christ encouraged,
I'm the first to admit that I need to grow in humility. With regards to my cancer analogy - both Christ and the apostles/disciples did exactly what I am doing. They explained to many the human condition and then pointed to the remedy. A classic example of this is Acts 17. Unless you think they are all arrogant for doing so, I can't help but feel your comment is a little unfair...
Are you seriously comparing yourself to Christ and his disciples?
Pro tip: if you want people to listen then talk about your own weaknesses, failures, and broken path. Answer some of the many questions about how you arrived at where you are. The struggles you have been through and how the religion you follow and your fellow believers helped you. Use phrases like "I believe" rather than "I know." Do not talk about why others are failing and then throw in an "oh, yea, me too." You're on page 4 and I've seen nothing I would call sincerity or humility because you are so focused on others. I see no evidence of a sincere wrestling with or struggle with what it is to be human.2 -
saragreen012 wrote: »I am often very satisfied. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many nights I find myself finally sitting down after a long day with my loved one, surrounded by our animals, and think how fortunate I am to live this life. When I find myself unsatisfied it's generally because I am making compromises to reach bigger goals, but I know I will reach them and I can find happiness in that.
If you're never satisfied maybe you should try looking for happiness in your own heart, rather than relying on some outside force or person to do it for you. If you find religion comforting, awesome, but I am 100% happy with my life without it. At the end of the day, I can't imagine finding peace in anything that wants to tell me loving my lady, and how we spend our lives together, is wrong.
Thanks for your comment Sara I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm saying religion is the key to happiness. I actually think religion does the opposite - at least, as I understand it. Religion: a belief system in which people are required to do things in order to make themselves good enough to have a peaceful/eternal existence with a higher power. That's not what I'm advocating at all .
With regards to the good things in life - eg relationships, pets, work, cities, nature etc. I believe they are good gifts to be enjoyed. Where I differ is in the relative place they have in our hearts. And part of the reason is that none of those 'good gifts' are eternal - global warming is set to destroy nature, relationships end, people betray us (or one person dies first), pets die, people lose jobs/become incapable of continuing in them... so surely we need something bigger to put our hope in right?
I absolutely agree it's important to have hope, and put it into something bigger than material things, but everything is fleeting, including myself. I am not at all concerned about what happens to me after I die, I'll just be dead. I 100% believe that people are mostly good though, and that's where I have always placed my hope. So every day when I encounter someone being kind I am reminded how much good there is in life, and I am happy.
For example, this morning I stopped at Starbucks on my way to work to get my mom a special treat for her birthday. The cashier was so friendly, had the biggest smile while writing "Happy Birthday" on the items, and it just made rushing around at 6am so much better. Waiting for my drink I just stood there thinking how awesome it is that I can start my mornings with a run (with my love), chat with kind strangers, and go into work with arms full of goodies for someone else I love. My hope isn't in any one detail, it's a belief that given the opportunity most people have kindness inside of them.
Edited to add: I obviously know there is also a lot of bad in the world (hence why I run with pepper spray now that several women have been attacked on runs in my neighborhood lately), and I have personally experienced some pretty terrible things. At the end of the day though, I will work to change the bad and appreciate the good things that far outnumber the bad.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Matthew 7:1-3:
7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Thanks for the rebuke but I'm not sure that I judged people to honest... If someone has cancer, the most appropriate thing a doctor can do is to tell them. It may be unpleasant, but It is reality.
I think we all (myself included) have spiritual cancer there is one cure for it.
Says "I'm not sure I judged people," and then says "I think we all have spiritual cancer." It seems to me that if you have spiritual cancer then you should spend more time on you before proceeding to accuse everyone ease of your own failings. It's called "humility," and it's something Christ encouraged,
I'm the first to admit that I need to grow in humility. With regards to my cancer analogy - both Christ and the apostles/disciples did exactly what I am doing. They explained to many the human condition and then pointed to the remedy. A classic example of this is Acts 17. Unless you think they are all arrogant for doing so, I can't help but feel your comment is a little unfair...
Are you seriously comparing yourself to Christ and his disciples?
Pro tip: if you want people to listen then talk about your own weaknesses, failures, and broken path. Answer some of the many questions about how you arrived at where you are. The struggles you have been through and how the religion you follow and your fellow believers helped you. Use phrases like "I believe" rather than "I know." Do not talk about why others are failing and then throw in an "oh, yea, me too." You're on page 4 and I've seen nothing I would call sincerity or humility because you are so focused on others. I see no evidence of a sincere wrestling with or struggle with what it is to be human.
Thanks for the tips mate.
I definitely have struggles,.happy to share. Rigjt now I'm studying my first year of a theological degree. The course load is intense, the pace as well. I'm nearly 30 and am keen to get married and start a family - had one significant relationship and several smaller ones in the last three.years.that.didnt work out. At the start of.the year.i lost my grandmother who helped raise.up. All these.things.have been.sources of frustration or.grief,.but the God I know has been my anchor throughout the 10 years that I've known Him.0 -
Always encouraged to see people questioning and thinking. Unfortunate this mostly civil, productive discussion doesn't happen often or is shutdown outright.1
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saragreen012 wrote: »saragreen012 wrote: »I am often very satisfied. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many nights I find myself finally sitting down after a long day with my loved one, surrounded by our animals, and think how fortunate I am to live this life. When I find myself unsatisfied it's generally because I am making compromises to reach bigger goals, but I know I will reach them and I can find happiness in that.
If you're never satisfied maybe you should try looking for happiness in your own heart, rather than relying on some outside force or person to do it for you. If you find religion comforting, awesome, but I am 100% happy with my life without it. At the end of the day, I can't imagine finding peace in anything that wants to tell me loving my lady, and how we spend our lives together, is wrong.
Thanks for your comment Sara I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm saying religion is the key to happiness. I actually think religion does the opposite - at least, as I understand it. Religion: a belief system in which people are required to do things in order to make themselves good enough to have a peaceful/eternal existence with a higher power. That's not what I'm advocating at all .
With regards to the good things in life - eg relationships, pets, work, cities, nature etc. I believe they are good gifts to be enjoyed. Where I differ is in the relative place they have in our hearts. And part of the reason is that none of those 'good gifts' are eternal - global warming is set to destroy nature, relationships end, people betray us (or one person dies first), pets die, people lose jobs/become incapable of continuing in them... so surely we need something bigger to put our hope in right?
I absolutely agree it's important to have hope, and put it into something bigger than material things, but everything is fleeting, including myself. I am not at all concerned about what happens to me after I die, I'll just be dead. I 100% believe that people are mostly good though, and that's where I have always placed my hope. So every day when I encounter someone being kind I am reminded how much good there is in life, and I am happy.
For example, this morning I stopped at Starbucks on my way to work to get my mom a special treat for her birthday. The cashier was so friendly, had the biggest smile while writing "Happy Birthday" on the items, and it just made rushing around at 6am so much better. Waiting for my drink I just stood there thinking how awesome it is that I can start my mornings with a run (with my love), chat with kind strangers, and go into work with arms full of goodies for someone else I love. My hope isn't in any one detail, it's a belief that given the opportunity most people have kindness inside of them.
Edited to add: I obviously know there is also a lot of bad in the world (hence why I run with pepper spray now that several women have been attacked on runs in my neighborhood lately), and I have personally experienced some pretty terrible things. At the end of the day though, I will work to change the bad and appreciate the good things that far outnumber the bad.
I get.you... I just don't know how we square the daily.suicide bombings.with that belief..0 -
saragreen012 wrote: »saragreen012 wrote: »I am often very satisfied. I couldn't even begin to tell you how many nights I find myself finally sitting down after a long day with my loved one, surrounded by our animals, and think how fortunate I am to live this life. When I find myself unsatisfied it's generally because I am making compromises to reach bigger goals, but I know I will reach them and I can find happiness in that.
If you're never satisfied maybe you should try looking for happiness in your own heart, rather than relying on some outside force or person to do it for you. If you find religion comforting, awesome, but I am 100% happy with my life without it. At the end of the day, I can't imagine finding peace in anything that wants to tell me loving my lady, and how we spend our lives together, is wrong.
Thanks for your comment Sara I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm saying religion is the key to happiness. I actually think religion does the opposite - at least, as I understand it. Religion: a belief system in which people are required to do things in order to make themselves good enough to have a peaceful/eternal existence with a higher power. That's not what I'm advocating at all .
With regards to the good things in life - eg relationships, pets, work, cities, nature etc. I believe they are good gifts to be enjoyed. Where I differ is in the relative place they have in our hearts. And part of the reason is that none of those 'good gifts' are eternal - global warming is set to destroy nature, relationships end, people betray us (or one person dies first), pets die, people lose jobs/become incapable of continuing in them... so surely we need something bigger to put our hope in right?
I absolutely agree it's important to have hope, and put it into something bigger than material things, but everything is fleeting, including myself. I am not at all concerned about what happens to me after I die, I'll just be dead. I 100% believe that people are mostly good though, and that's where I have always placed my hope. So every day when I encounter someone being kind I am reminded how much good there is in life, and I am happy.
For example, this morning I stopped at Starbucks on my way to work to get my mom a special treat for her birthday. The cashier was so friendly, had the biggest smile while writing "Happy Birthday" on the items, and it just made rushing around at 6am so much better. Waiting for my drink I just stood there thinking how awesome it is that I can start my mornings with a run (with my love), chat with kind strangers, and go into work with arms full of goodies for someone else I love. My hope isn't in any one detail, it's a belief that given the opportunity most people have kindness inside of them.
Edited to add: I obviously know there is also a lot of bad in the world (hence why I run with pepper spray now that several women have been attacked on runs in my neighborhood lately), and I have personally experienced some pretty terrible things. At the end of the day though, I will work to change the bad and appreciate the good things that far outnumber the bad.
I get.you... I just don't know how we square the daily.suicide bombings.with that belief..
There are over 7 billion people on Earth, current estimates place "extremist" group number at about 150,000 up to 250,000 individuals. This puts the percentage of those individuals to be about 0.0036% of the general population at most. I'd say that the bigger problem is allowing that very small percentage of people so greatly impact how you view the world.3 -
I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Most people see The Son as a person and someone outside of themselves. They think being asked to direct their heart and attention to Him as directing those things to something or someone outside of themselves.
That's why Buddhism, as a religion, has more members than ever outside Eastern Asia. Membership is on the rise in the West because it's a self-based religion, or at least it's approached that way by the Zen community (which I've been closely aligned with for 25 years) and by the peripheral Western enthusiasts of the Tibetan traditions. I'm not advocating a self based religious approach, as I interpret Buddhism as a brilliant philosophy and a very effective form of psychology, not a religion or a spiritual system. Like I said, I'm Christian.
Also, as a Christian, I don't talk about Christianity to those hostile towards it and prone to mock it. I think Jesus would approve of that and there's a piece of Scripture in Matthew that backs that up quite nicely. I'd like to quote it here but that would be considered inflammatory so I won't. So I don't talk about it on MFP and the powers that be that moderate the discussion boards probably appreciate that. Also, the Christian Groups here on MFP are mostly sound bitish and include very brief prayers and short declarations of gratitude. They don't include cerebral discussions on the topic of Christianity or any debates at all with Non Christians. So for as long as this discussion is allowed to remain, I'm grateful for it.
But, getting back to what you posted above OP, hypothetically, if you were wanting to convey these ideas, especially to nominal Christians as #3 suggests, or to those folks who don't like hearing Jesus talk, maybe using the term Holy Spirit would be more palatable? Hearing about God generally annoys people, hearing about Jesus generally enrages people but hearing about the Holy Spirit usually seems more tolerable to seculars and people of different religions.
Personally, I think Christianity without deep study, meditation, and prayer discipline is very difficult to put into words. Thomas Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, G.K. Chesterton, Thomas Merton and Edith Stein do a good job though - but deep study, meditation and prayer discipline were at the foundation of their work. And those are hard acts to follow.
What do you think?
I appreciate your sentiment (sorry don't know your name!)
Im well aware of how people feel about Christianity, God,.Jesus etc. I live in a city that Is more secular than most American cities.
You'll notice that invmy initial post, I don't make direct reference to any of those names. For the sake of answerering/responding to comments, I had to use them.
I think Holy Spirit is unhelpful for two reasons:
1. The role of the Spirit is to point people to the Son. So to focus on the Spirit in favour of the Son would actually grieve the Spirit.
2. The apostles focused on the Son - after all, it is the work of.the cross that enables restoration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, was sent by the Father through the intercession of Jesus and is called The Spirit of Truth. I don't think the Spirit of Truth is grieved by anyone communicating with it directly nor do I think the Spirit of Truth came into existence only after the birth of Jesus. It was there before and accessible through the Father from time immemorial, as the Jewish prophets conveyed quite effectively.
Like I said, in my opinion, the discussion of a Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a very difficult concept to put into words monotheistically.
But it's also a blessing if looked at from a generous perspective. Christianity was modeled to me by people who were little more than sociopaths and consequently I became an atheist, then an agnostic, for decades and long before it was cool and mainstream. I actually had an apartment lease rescinded after admitting my atheism to my would-be landlord and people I adored at work refused to sit at the lunch table after I admitted it, which broke my heart because I was only a teenager at the time.
The Holy Spirit aspect of the Trinity is what enabled me to re-connect to my Christianity and to study the teachings of the Son directly from Scripture. Now I'm very interested in Old Testament too and watch a few Rabbis on Youtube as a supplement to my Christian study. All three roads Father, Son and Holy Spirit lead to the Source in my experience. Getting heavy handed with Jesus talk can really backfire, if helping people is what you want to do. Easing people into it, gradually, if you want to evangelize, would probably be far more effective. The idea of a Holy Spirit is much easier to digest. And if it opens the mind to The Christ so be it. Things happen in their own time, or maybe not at all.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Matthew 7:1-3:
7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Thanks for the rebuke but I'm not sure that I judged people to honest... If someone has cancer, the most appropriate thing a doctor can do is to tell them. It may be unpleasant, but It is reality.
I think we all (myself included) have spiritual cancer there is one cure for it.
Says "I'm not sure I judged people," and then says "I think we all have spiritual cancer." It seems to me that if you have spiritual cancer then you should spend more time on you before proceeding to accuse everyone ease of your own failings. It's called "humility," and it's something Christ encouraged,
Sorry but I'm honestly not seeing how what I said it accusatory?
I'm actually not answering your questions yet because I asked if you could explain how you came to conclude that one needs a degree in physics before being able to have something to say about God (or to that effect)... Im more then happy to respond to the questions you asked of me in turn :smile.
I answered that question
Did you? Could you please repost your answer? It must have got lost in the thread.
If you can't be bothered to look, then no. If you're lost on 4 pages of a discussion board then the Bible is going to be a labyrinthine to you (it certainly is to me), and it seems like it already is. Again, I'm seeing no evidence of striving, and you now state that you are in seminary and plan to lead people to salvation? I'm not trying to be mean or cruel, but you need to seriously examine yourself if you are going to take on the role of religious leader. It's not a role of self aggrandizement. A leader of flawed men does not walk into an AA meeting and say "you're all a bunch of alcoholics and, oh yea, me too." He shares his struggles and flaws and invites others to do the same, while helping to provide support through their struggles . . . without judgment. Striving to know God or anything metaphysical is a struggle because it is all beyond our human comprehension. It takes reading, reflection, and sincerity. Not lecturing.1 -
When I was in my twenties I was never satisfied because that's, somewhat, the nature of youth. Now that I'm older I'm deeply satisfied because I realize there are very few things we can directly control. I no longer care about whether I "fit in" or not--I have friends and family to love and who love me, have enough material goods to be comfortable without being gluttonous, and try to help people as much as I can. I have a fantastic job, but it doesn't rule my entire life and I have a fantastic life after work.
The world has ALWAYS been a big chaotic place with both beauty and problems. I push the water with my hand to try to make changes I think are needed and, if enough other people are also making ripples, then a tsunami will come eventually. If not, well, then it's just some pretty ripples I've made in a pond.
As for religion, going to Catholic school where we were hit (yes, the stereotypes of the old-school nuns are true) and where every question was answered with "because it's god's will" vs. any type of thoughtful response, kind of turned me off to the whole thing. I concede that there might be some higher power at work in the universe, but the idea that this power loves us, punishes us, hates us, etc. makes no sense to me. It also makes no sense to me that, because there may be a higher power, therefore we get to exist forever. That sounds more like fear over the loss of ego and a psychological defense mechanism against death than a rational argument.
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As to the original question....
It's my wife's fault.1 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »Why do you assume we are all dissatisfied? Life is a process, and it is by going through that process that we learn and grow, at least if we learn to enjoy it for what it is and all it has to offer. I have certainly grown as I've aged and I desire to continue to do so. That's not being unsatisfied or dissatisfied, it's striving to be the best me I can be.
On the metaphysical side of things, I don't claim to have any answers and I must admit that I'm more than a bit put off by those who do. Anyone pretending to "know" God in whatever form they claim to know "Him" must be awfully arrogant to believe they have knowledge unattainable to humans. If you're going to attempt to understand God without years of studies in physics then you're pretending to know more than the smartest and most well educated among us. Human knowledge is ultimately limited and I'm agnostic regarding what I can't understand or examine. That acceptance makes me satisfied because it forces me to work within the means of what I am, mortal and finite.
That is not to say you aren't entitled to your beliefs. But, don't pretend to know what you as a human cannot possibly know or comprehend. Accept your limitations and embrace what you can know and comprehend.
ETA: the typos are mine. I'm only human . . .
Thanks mate.
Yep I assume that people are dissatisfied because I've both read that this is the Human condition according to the bible, but I've also observed it/continue to observe it in the people around me. Im not suggesting that people never experience happiness or contentment, but rather that it's short lived when they do.
Lots of truth statements in your contribution and lots of presuppositions about how we can know God etc.
Tell us how you came to conclude that you need to study physics for years in order to know God?
Because if you don't understand what you claim to be his creation in all its finite glory then how can you possibly make an honest claim to know Him in all his (as you believe) infinite glory?
Put another way, why do you think you know when so many smarter than you admit they don't or believe differently? Is that not the ultimate arrogance absent good evidence?
Sunnybeaches sorry for missing this - it wasn't immediately obvious to me that this was your reply to my initial question.
The presupposition I see here Is this:
We cannot know the creator if we do not understand creation.
I respectfully disagree with this idea, mainly because the bible speaks of a God who reveals himself to the person who doesn't have advanced knowledge.
Paul the apostle says as much in his 1st letter to the church in Corinth:
'Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong'
The context: Paul was addressing a church that placed too much value on superstardom. They wanted super apostles with exceptional gifts in speaking etc to lead them. They had bought into the culture of.their city.
Paul wants them to understand that God doesn't always work through the elite of.society. Nor does he only.reveal himself to the elite of
Society.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Most people see The Son as a person and someone outside of themselves. They think being asked to direct their heart and attention to Him as directing those things to something or someone outside of themselves.
That's why Buddhism, as a religion, has more members than ever outside Eastern Asia. Membership is on the rise in the West because it's a self-based religion, or at least it's approached that way by the Zen community (which I've been closely aligned with for 25 years) and by the peripheral Western enthusiasts of the Tibetan traditions. I'm not advocating a self based religious approach, as I interpret Buddhism as a brilliant philosophy and a very effective form of psychology, not a religion or a spiritual system. Like I said, I'm Christian.
Also, as a Christian, I don't talk about Christianity to those hostile towards it and prone to mock it. I think Jesus would approve of that and there's a piece of Scripture in Matthew that backs that up quite nicely. I'd like to quote it here but that would be considered inflammatory so I won't. So I don't talk about it on MFP and the powers that be that moderate the discussion boards probably appreciate that. Also, the Christian Groups here on MFP are mostly sound bitish and include very brief prayers and short declarations of gratitude. They don't include cerebral discussions on the topic of Christianity or any debates at all with Non Christians. So for as long as this discussion is allowed to remain, I'm grateful for it.
But, getting back to what you posted above OP, hypothetically, if you were wanting to convey these ideas, especially to nominal Christians as #3 suggests, or to those folks who don't like hearing Jesus talk, maybe using the term Holy Spirit would be more palatable? Hearing about God generally annoys people, hearing about Jesus generally enrages people but hearing about the Holy Spirit usually seems more tolerable to seculars and people of different religions.
Personally, I think Christianity without deep study, meditation, and prayer discipline is very difficult to put into words. Thomas Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, G.K. Chesterton, Thomas Merton and Edith Stein do a good job though - but deep study, meditation and prayer discipline were at the foundation of their work. And those are hard acts to follow.
What do you think?
I appreciate your sentiment (sorry don't know your name!)
Im well aware of how people feel about Christianity, God,.Jesus etc. I live in a city that Is more secular than most American cities.
You'll notice that invmy initial post, I don't make direct reference to any of those names. For the sake of answerering/responding to comments, I had to use them.
I think Holy Spirit is unhelpful for two reasons:
1. The role of the Spirit is to point people to the Son. So to focus on the Spirit in favour of the Son would actually grieve the Spirit.
2. The apostles focused on the Son - after all, it is the work of.the cross that enables restoration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, was sent by the Father through the intercession of Jesus and is called The Spirit of Truth. I don't think the Spirit of Truth is grieved by anyone communicating with it directly nor do I think the Spirit of Truth came into existence only after the birth of Jesus. It was there before and accessible through the Father from time immemorial, as the Jewish prophets conveyed quite effectively.
Like I said, in my opinion, the discussion of a Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a very difficult concept to put into words monotheistically.
But it's also a blessing if looked at from a generous perspective. Christianity was modeled to me by people who were little more than sociopaths and consequently I became an atheist, then an agnostic, for decades and long before it was cool and mainstream. I actually had an apartment lease rescinded after admitting my atheism to my would-be landlord and people I adored at work refused to sit at the lunch table after I admitted it, which broke my heart because I was only a teenager at the time.
The Holy Spirit aspect of the Trinity is what enabled me to re-connect to my Christianity and to study the teachings of the Son directly from Scripture. Now I'm very interested in Old Testament too and watch a few Rabbis on Youtube as a supplement to my Christian study. All three roads Father, Son and Holy Spirit lead to the Source in my experience. Getting heavy handed with Jesus talk can really backfire, if helping people is what you want to do. Easing people into it, gradually, if you want to evangelize, would probably be far more effective. The idea of a Holy Spirit is much easier to digest. And if it opens the mind to The Christ so be it. Things happen in their own time, or maybe not at all.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Matthew 7:1-3:
7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Thanks for the rebuke but I'm not sure that I judged people to honest... If someone has cancer, the most appropriate thing a doctor can do is to tell them. It may be unpleasant, but It is reality.
I think we all (myself included) have spiritual cancer there is one cure for it.
Says "I'm not sure I judged people," and then says "I think we all have spiritual cancer." It seems to me that if you have spiritual cancer then you should spend more time on you before proceeding to accuse everyone ease of your own failings. It's called "humility," and it's something Christ encouraged,
Sorry but I'm honestly not seeing how what I said it accusatory?
I'm actually not answering your questions yet because I asked if you could explain how you came to conclude that one needs a degree in physics before being able to have something to say about God (or to that effect)... Im more then happy to respond to the questions you asked of me in turn :smile.
I answered that question
Did you? Could you please repost your answer? It must have got lost in the thread.
If you can't be bothered to look, then no. If you're lost on 4 pages of a discussion board then the Bible is going to be a labyrinthine to you (it certainly is to me), and it seems like it already is. Again, I'm seeing no evidence of striving, and you now state that you are in seminary and plan to lead people to salvation? I'm not trying to be mean or cruel, but you need to seriously examine yourself if you are going to take on the role of religious leader. It's not a role of self aggrandizement. A leader of flawed men does not walk into an AA meeting and say "you're all a bunch of alcoholics and, oh yea, me too." He shares his struggles and flaws and invites others to do the same, while helping to provide support through their struggles . . . without judgment. Striving to know God or anything metaphysical is a struggle because it is all beyond our human comprehension. It takes reading, reflection, and sincerity. Not lecturing.
Hey thanks for all your criticisms of me. I dojt know.your motives but it's.helpful to hear them and reflect on them.
For.the record I didn't mean that i couldn't understand my classes. Rather it is the pace. God is.good though, I'm getting through:)0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Most people see The Son as a person and someone outside of themselves. They think being asked to direct their heart and attention to Him as directing those things to something or someone outside of themselves.
That's why Buddhism, as a religion, has more members than ever outside Eastern Asia. Membership is on the rise in the West because it's a self-based religion, or at least it's approached that way by the Zen community (which I've been closely aligned with for 25 years) and by the peripheral Western enthusiasts of the Tibetan traditions. I'm not advocating a self based religious approach, as I interpret Buddhism as a brilliant philosophy and a very effective form of psychology, not a religion or a spiritual system. Like I said, I'm Christian.
Also, as a Christian, I don't talk about Christianity to those hostile towards it and prone to mock it. I think Jesus would approve of that and there's a piece of Scripture in Matthew that backs that up quite nicely. I'd like to quote it here but that would be considered inflammatory so I won't. So I don't talk about it on MFP and the powers that be that moderate the discussion boards probably appreciate that. Also, the Christian Groups here on MFP are mostly sound bitish and include very brief prayers and short declarations of gratitude. They don't include cerebral discussions on the topic of Christianity or any debates at all with Non Christians. So for as long as this discussion is allowed to remain, I'm grateful for it.
But, getting back to what you posted above OP, hypothetically, if you were wanting to convey these ideas, especially to nominal Christians as #3 suggests, or to those folks who don't like hearing Jesus talk, maybe using the term Holy Spirit would be more palatable? Hearing about God generally annoys people, hearing about Jesus generally enrages people but hearing about the Holy Spirit usually seems more tolerable to seculars and people of different religions.
Personally, I think Christianity without deep study, meditation, and prayer discipline is very difficult to put into words. Thomas Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, G.K. Chesterton, Thomas Merton and Edith Stein do a good job though - but deep study, meditation and prayer discipline were at the foundation of their work. And those are hard acts to follow.
What do you think?
I appreciate your sentiment (sorry don't know your name!)
Im well aware of how people feel about Christianity, God,.Jesus etc. I live in a city that Is more secular than most American cities.
You'll notice that invmy initial post, I don't make direct reference to any of those names. For the sake of answerering/responding to comments, I had to use them.
I think Holy Spirit is unhelpful for two reasons:
1. The role of the Spirit is to point people to the Son. So to focus on the Spirit in favour of the Son would actually grieve the Spirit.
2. The apostles focused on the Son - after all, it is the work of.the cross that enables restoration and salvation.
The Holy Spirit, according to Jesus, was sent by the Father through the intercession of Jesus and is called The Spirit of Truth. I don't think the Spirit of Truth is grieved by anyone communicating with it directly nor do I think the Spirit of Truth came into existence only after the birth of Jesus. It was there before and accessible through the Father from time immemorial, as the Jewish prophets conveyed quite effectively.
Like I said, in my opinion, the discussion of a Triune God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a very difficult concept to put into words monotheistically.
But it's also a blessing if looked at from a generous perspective. Christianity was modeled to me by people who were little more than sociopaths and consequently I became an atheist, then an agnostic, for decades and long before it was cool and mainstream. I actually had an apartment lease rescinded after admitting my atheism to my would-be landlord and people I adored at work refused to sit at the lunch table after I admitted it, which broke my heart because I was only a teenager at the time.
The Holy Spirit aspect of the Trinity is what enabled me to re-connect to my Christianity and to study the teachings of the Son directly from Scripture. Now I'm very interested in Old Testament too and watch a few Rabbis on Youtube as a supplement to my Christian study. All three roads Father, Son and Holy Spirit lead to the Source in my experience. Getting heavy handed with Jesus talk can really backfire, if helping people is what you want to do. Easing people into it, gradually, if you want to evangelize, would probably be far more effective. The idea of a Holy Spirit is much easier to digest. And if it opens the mind to The Christ so be it. Things happen in their own time, or maybe not at all.sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »I just want to clarify something for everyone:
Im not wanting to treat Jesus as another fad or consumerable for people to try out.
What I am wanting to do is communicate three things:
1. In my observation, we seem to long to give ourselves to something outside outside of ourself. In other words, we seem to naturally worship things, to worship people.
2. Worshipping things and other people doesn't seem to be going so well for us. We end up getting hurt. We end up hurting others. Our societies do not flourish when we live like this.
3. When communities direct their affections and hearts towards Jesus Christ, we see people beginning to flourish. Not just individuals, but whole communities.
The sad thing is that many claim to be all about thid but never really live in community like this and so fail to represent what it really means to live as a Christian.
Matthew 7:1-3:
7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Thanks for the rebuke but I'm not sure that I judged people to honest... If someone has cancer, the most appropriate thing a doctor can do is to tell them. It may be unpleasant, but It is reality.
I think we all (myself included) have spiritual cancer there is one cure for it.
Says "I'm not sure I judged people," and then says "I think we all have spiritual cancer." It seems to me that if you have spiritual cancer then you should spend more time on you before proceeding to accuse everyone ease of your own failings. It's called "humility," and it's something Christ encouraged,
Sorry but I'm honestly not seeing how what I said it accusatory?
I'm actually not answering your questions yet because I asked if you could explain how you came to conclude that one needs a degree in physics before being able to have something to say about God (or to that effect)... Im more then happy to respond to the questions you asked of me in turn :smile.
I answered that question
Did you? Could you please repost your answer? It must have got lost in the thread.
If you can't be bothered to look, then no. If you're lost on 4 pages of a discussion board then the Bible is going to be a labyrinthine to you (it certainly is to me), and it seems like it already is. Again, I'm seeing no evidence of striving, and you now state that you are in seminary and plan to lead people to salvation? I'm not trying to be mean or cruel, but you need to seriously examine yourself if you are going to take on the role of religious leader. It's not a role of self aggrandizement. A leader of flawed men does not walk into an AA meeting and say "you're all a bunch of alcoholics and, oh yea, me too." He shares his struggles and flaws and invites others to do the same, while helping to provide support through their struggles . . . without judgment. Striving to know God or anything metaphysical is a struggle because it is all beyond our human comprehension. It takes reading, reflection, and sincerity. Not lecturing.[/quote
I have read up on other faiths.
Summary:
Hinduism:
Karma.cycle and cast system. We came out of Brahman and all need.to return into Brahman. How? Good.works.
Islam:
We were created.by Alla. Our purpose is.to submit to him through obedience.to the laws.as written in the Koran. 'if our works are heavy we.go to paradise, if.they are.light, hell'
Buddhism: our purpose is to be at.one with the world, to rise.above.pleasure and pain an escape
To Zen.
How? Good.works.
Judaism: Yahweh created us to live in relationship with him. Adam.and eve.chose.tovbe their.own Kings.and queens. Sin entered.the world. Adam.and.eve. Were cast out.of.eden and Gods.immediate presence..
God promised Their descendant Abraham.land, seed.ans blessing.
A.messiah was.promised.who would.ultimstely.deal with the.sin of.the people.(Isaiah 53).
Now Jews.wait for.that messiah. Many live understanding that obedience to the law is.the only.mesns.by which they can be rigjt with Yahweh.0 -
@sunnybeaches105
Thankyou for.the conversation.
I'll leave it there. I wish you all the best with your journey mate.
Thanks.too to all those.who contributed - great.discusion!0 -
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