why am i losing muscle mass?

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Replies

  • Francl27
    Francl27 Posts: 26,371 Member
    edited August 2016
    Stop worrying about body fat too much. Eat a lot of protein (30% or so). Do strength training. That's pretty much all you can do to minimize muscle mass loss anyway.

    Not much advice for your DOMs, are you sure you're just not mistaking it for muscle fatigue? It's what happens to my legs all the time... but it's not the same as DOMs.
  • cee134
    cee134 Posts: 33,711 Member
    The best source of protein that I know of from plants, none soy based, are lentils then beans. Seitan and soy are good.
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.

    Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.

    Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.

    Know how I know you didn't read the article I linked?

    I read it in the past. That article doesn't understand how BIA actually works. Modern BIA uses multiple frequencies and multiple points of contact and works from there. The results are very consistent at consistent hydration levels. The only difficulty is doing measurements at a consistent hydration, which is why it should be done in the home and not in the gym or in some office.

    Skin fold is basically impossible to do very well by yourself and it is only measuring subcutaneous fat. The more points the more accurate it can be, but it is pretty difficult to do well.

    With BIA I got to the point where I seeing very small variation in my measurements day to day. Skin fold I would end up with +/- 5% difference every time I tried to make measurements. Those points are then put into a set of equations that cranks out a total number.

    As I mentioned I was asked before my DEXA scan what I though my body fat % was and how I figured that out. I told them 24.5% from BIA. After is was measured at 24.1% they told me that it was common for people using BIA to be pretty close. The DEXA scan though gives a great deal more information. That is a real world data point.

    That being said, I think a lot of BIA scales aren't very good. I use one that is pretty ugly but works very consistently. https://www.amazon.com/Omron-Body-Composition-Monitor-Scale/dp/B0020MMCDE/ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1472511696&sr=8-4&keywords=BIA+scale
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.

    Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.

    Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.

    As an electrical engineer, I can easily assure you that BIA measurements are utter garbage.

    If you had a 4-point test, maybe. Maybe. Otherwise, no.

    Really? I happen to be an electrical engineer. However, I have never claimed that two point systems will give good results. That actually should be petty obvious.
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    edited August 2016
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.
  • Cahgetsfit
    Cahgetsfit Posts: 1,912 Member
    already have lots of good comments on here esp the one from the vegetarian person up above. Re those scales - completely off. My scale at home had me on 26% BF but the callipers and DEXA had me at 18% so......

    BIG EFFING DIFFERENCE!

    Re the DOMS - do you take BCAAs or Glutamine or even plain old Magnesium? ZMA tablets at night help. I hardly get the DOMS anymore unless I have a full on beast-mode wipe me off the floor session with a trainer. And even then it's DOMS but not the "I can't sit on the toilet" type. It's just that nice "owww I worked these muscles" type DOMS.

    Re protein - agree with others - looks like you may need a bit more. I use vegan protein powder and I like it. Protein powder is something you just have to get used to the taste. I put mine in my oats in the morning with powdered peanut butter and it's awesome (I use the not very sweet kind - I don't like the really sweet ones)

    Anyway good luck!
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    I have a Withings scale which does BIA. I weigh on it daily, under absolutely identical conditions (same time of the morning when I get out of bed, naked, immediately after going to the bathroom). The bodyfat percentage reading randomly fluctuates 2% to 3% either direction on a daily basis. I know that my actual bodyfat isn't fluctuating 2-3% on a daily basis. I also have a pair of skinfold calipers and take monthly 3-site measurements under identical conditions (in the past four years I've taken over a thousand measurements with the calipers, so I'm familiar with how to properly use them). Their results are much more consistent and repeatable. They're also 3-4% lower than the BIA scale and more consistent with my visual BF% estimation.

    When I joined a new gym last year, they offered a consultation and analysis with the orientation. I asked them how they measured bodyfat percentage and when they told me they used a BIA machine, I declined the analysis because I knew the numbers it would spit out would be all but completely worthless.
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    What's important to YOU might be consistency and yes, I didn't care all that much about exact percentages when I had excess fat but being consistent does not make them accurate. Those words aren't interchangeable.
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    I have a Withings scale which does BIA. I weigh on it daily, under absolutely identical conditions (same time of the morning when I get out of bed, naked, immediately after going to the bathroom). The bodyfat percentage reading randomly fluctuates 2% to 3% either direction on a daily basis. I know that my actual bodyfat isn't fluctuating 2-3% on a daily basis. I also have a pair of skinfold calipers and take monthly 3-site measurements under identical conditions (in the past four years I've taken over a thousand measurements with the calipers, so I'm familiar with how to properly use them). Their results are much more consistent and repeatable. They're also 3-4% lower than the BIA scale and more consistent with my visual BF% estimation.

    When I joined a new gym last year, they offered a consultation and analysis with the orientation. I asked them how they measured bodyfat percentage and when they told me they used a BIA machine, I declined the analysis because I knew the numbers it would spit out would be all but completely worthless.

    At withings.com I only see two contact scales. I wouldn't expect good results from that. Modern BIA should at least use both the hands and feet and be done over multiple frequencies. I can see why people don't think BIA isn't accurate when with cheap scales that have a poor implementation. Style, WIFI whatever ... those aren't what is needed for BIA. If I had results that varied 2% to 3% a day, I wouldn't use them either.

    It is good that you have a method that works for you with skin fold. Very few people invest the amount of effort and practice required to make it work well. For me I saw wide variation and was very concerned that there isn't any real measurement of visceral fat which I was primary concerned about. Even BIA is crude for visceral fat vs subcutaneous fat, but it was very consistent for me. When it changed I could confirm it with waist size measurements.

    The key point is to have a method to works for yourself. Very few people put in the effort to know how to do something right. I applaud you for succeeding!
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    What's important to YOU might be consistency and yes, I didn't care all that much about exact percentages when I had excess fat but being consistent does not make them accurate. Those words aren't interchangeable.

    If you are concerned about exact percentages then DEXA scan would be your minimum standard.
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    What's important to YOU might be consistency and yes, I didn't care all that much about exact percentages when I had excess fat but being consistent does not make them accurate. Those words aren't interchangeable.

    If you are concerned about exact percentages then DEXA scan would be your minimum standard.

    Yes, I get Dexas for myself when I want to know the number.

    My point still remains for the OP though. They should disregard the numbers as they can't be sure they are accurate so no need to worry about them.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    I have a Withings scale which does BIA. I weigh on it daily, under absolutely identical conditions (same time of the morning when I get out of bed, naked, immediately after going to the bathroom). The bodyfat percentage reading randomly fluctuates 2% to 3% either direction on a daily basis. I know that my actual bodyfat isn't fluctuating 2-3% on a daily basis. I also have a pair of skinfold calipers and take monthly 3-site measurements under identical conditions (in the past four years I've taken over a thousand measurements with the calipers, so I'm familiar with how to properly use them). Their results are much more consistent and repeatable. They're also 3-4% lower than the BIA scale and more consistent with my visual BF% estimation.

    When I joined a new gym last year, they offered a consultation and analysis with the orientation. I asked them how they measured bodyfat percentage and when they told me they used a BIA machine, I declined the analysis because I knew the numbers it would spit out would be all but completely worthless.

    As do I.

    I was away Sunday/Monday and ate a little more than I normally would. I suspect I am also retaining some extra water. My scale is up 5lbs. My BF% is down 5%.
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    edited August 2016
    Guys, if you disagree that just means you don't know how to use the machine correctly. Didn'tchyaknow?
  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,488 Member
    edited August 2016
    .
  • dykask
    dykask Posts: 800 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    The omron is within 3.5% for 68% of the population and greater inaccuracy for 32% of the population.

    What is important is consistency. Every simple method has some offset that will vary by person. Consistency lets one understand what is changing. If you aren't getting consistent results then you don't have a trustworthy method. That is the primary benefit of BIA, I've been able to get very consistent results on a day to day basis. Skin fold was a total failure at giving consistent results.

    What's important to YOU might be consistency and yes, I didn't care all that much about exact percentages when I had excess fat but being consistent does not make them accurate. Those words aren't interchangeable.

    If you are concerned about exact percentages then DEXA scan would be your minimum standard.

    Yes, I get Dexas for myself when I want to know the number.

    My point still remains for the OP though. They should disregard the numbers as they can't be sure they are accurate so no need to worry about them.

    Okay I can see that.

    I also see some people dissing DEXA scans from time to time, I was actually pretty impressed with mine. I badly injured my right big toe when I was a teen. So bad that I had to have part of a bone removed and I lost the big toe nail. I'm right handed but the DEXA scan actually showed I have about a pound more muscle in my left leg than in my right leg. That injury is 40 years old and don't notice it anymore, but it seems my body just adjusted for it. I have always felt that I was big boned or had heavy bones. The DEXA scan confirmed I was about 30% heavier boned than average, the shocking part is it only accounts for less than 2 pounds! The DEXA scan also should I have about 90 cm^3 of visceral fat, what else can show that kind of thing with reasonable cost? I took my scan report to my doctor and he really looked at it. He said he hadn't seen one before an it was interesting.

    The thing that kind of depresses me about it is that it showed my weight goals may not be realistic. To get there without losing any muscle I have to get my total body fat under 15%. That 15% includes things like my brain and other essentials (roughly 4.1% in my case) , so it actually a pretty low body fat figure and still would leave my BMI above 26. So I'm having to rethink my goals a little. I don't think I'm interested in bodybuilder type fat levels. Most of those guys don't feel so great when their body fat is so low.
  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    That's neat.