wendler 5/3/1 - dealing with failure. heck, DEFINING failure in formats like this
canadianlbs
Posts: 5,199 Member
i feel like i've been doing 3's week of my sixth wendler cycle for . . . well, weeks. because i have. i finished cycle 5 without unbearable trouble, but also without extra reps. did my deload week. started the new cycle. got through 5's week, also without extra reps.
now it's 3's week, and i feel like when the aliens come in the year 4016, they'll find a ruined civilization and me still toiling away trying to break out of it. one lone little rec center somewhere with the lights still on, and me. picture wall-e, only with swear words and sweat. and a bit less progress.
i'm in my third year of lifting but my previous programmes were 5x5 and then 3x5, i.e. sets across. so i'd love any expertise that people have. i don't know if i should restart the cycle, keep on restarting the week, deload and start a new cycle at once, go back and do the whole previous cycle to make a runup, deload within this cycle and move on to 1's week, run away to tijuana and take up needlepoint . . . what?
in my head is this protestant thing that you can't go on to your next [week/cycle] until you've properly done the one that you're already in, and i don't really like that scrappy feeling of feeling you 'got' your cycle on paper but not really in spirit.
so there's a part of me that wants to go way back to some much earlier point, any point that will let me know for sure that i got all x of my reps and there's no fine print like 'but with a long break in mid-set' 'but with crappy form' 'but i'm damn sure i couldn't do it again'.
but idk if that kind of puritanism is actually useful in practical terms. help? and thanks.
now it's 3's week, and i feel like when the aliens come in the year 4016, they'll find a ruined civilization and me still toiling away trying to break out of it. one lone little rec center somewhere with the lights still on, and me. picture wall-e, only with swear words and sweat. and a bit less progress.
i'm in my third year of lifting but my previous programmes were 5x5 and then 3x5, i.e. sets across. so i'd love any expertise that people have. i don't know if i should restart the cycle, keep on restarting the week, deload and start a new cycle at once, go back and do the whole previous cycle to make a runup, deload within this cycle and move on to 1's week, run away to tijuana and take up needlepoint . . . what?
in my head is this protestant thing that you can't go on to your next [week/cycle] until you've properly done the one that you're already in, and i don't really like that scrappy feeling of feeling you 'got' your cycle on paper but not really in spirit.
so there's a part of me that wants to go way back to some much earlier point, any point that will let me know for sure that i got all x of my reps and there's no fine print like 'but with a long break in mid-set' 'but with crappy form' 'but i'm damn sure i couldn't do it again'.
but idk if that kind of puritanism is actually useful in practical terms. help? and thanks.
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Replies
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It's hard to give you much in the way of advice. You've written a lot about your feelings but very little about what exactly is going on. What lifts are causing you trouble? Which program are you doing? In fact, what are your exercises/reps/sets on each day? Are you getting enough rest? Are you doing any other exercise (e.g., conditioning, etc.)? Have you reset your weight at all? I could go on but you get the gist, I'm sure.0
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So long story short, you didn't get your 3 minimum reps? I'm assuming that's the case, you didn't really say it but here we are...
Drop to 90-95% of your current training max (Wendler recommends 90% if I remember in the book), recalculate the program and keep going from there.
It doesn't really matter if you do your 5/3/1 week next week or just start over with 5s week. It really doesn't. If you have complete decision paralysis (and it sounds like you do) I'd probably just reset and start over with 5s if it were me.
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Run off to Tijuana but forget the needlepoint your hands will be too sweaty. Take a bikini and read on the beach instead.
Sorry that is the best advice I can give. I think I was brought up with the same work ethic and I haven't been lifting very long.
Had to reply cos I loved your post's humour.
Cheers, h.6 -
Where are you at, what's been your progression before 5/3/1, what has it been on it? You said it's your third year, but moving from beginner/intermediate/advanced isn't just by time in gym.0
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. . . yeah, i wasn't being very lucid, sorry. the basic issue is that i didn't know whether to make 'get all the reps' the baseline and adjust training weight until i find one that lets me do it, or some other approach.
for those who are still curious: i've been consistently failing to get all the reps of my top sets only, for a whole month. the reasons aren't negotiable even if my focus was there, so i left them out to spare everybody the irritation of troubleshooting in a zone where i'm not really asking for help in the first place.
thanks for the feedback. i get the idea of reducing training weight, and that's what my trainer and i have been doing. i just didn't know if i should drop the tw and still repeat the failed week, or drop the tw and just go ahead into the next week anyway. what i've picked up seems to answer that, so thanks for your time.0 -
I've done Wendler cycles a number of times. If you stall do like DopeItUp says, drop back in weight.
Sometimes it will feel silly light but you should stick with the percentages. Wendler has a great program but you won't see fast results. Just stick with it.
JK0 -
Do you know know what your one rep max is on all of the lifts?
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theclaw900 wrote: »Do you know know what your one rep max is on all of the lifts?
i know the most i've ever actually done with them all, put it that way. but that's as that top 95% set in 1's week for the last cycle where the wheels were still on, which was around the first week of august. and right now the wheels are off, so idk how far i would trust those numbers. i certainly can't do them as they've come up in the next wave along, this time around.
i really like wendler, just to be clear. i'm not in a hurry to get any particular place and it's already taken me past the plateau that was the reason i switched. i just wasn't sure what the best procedure would be for trucking my way out of this messy patch that i've gotten into right now.0 -
Are you in a calorie deficit, maintenance or surplus?
Knowing I was going to be on a cut this summer I reset the weights for cycle 10 to 90%. It allowed me to work my way back up and even go past where I was at before I reset the weights.
Now it's becoming more challenging but I'm heading into maintenance for cycle 14 and should be able to progress further.
Plain and simple: if you can't make the required reps, reset the weights and work your way back up.
Are you running BBB at all or just the main lifts?0 -
Did you reset to your 3rd cycle TM after your 5th cycle? He recommended this in Beyond 531. I'd do that and just restart your current cycle.3
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Did you reset to your 3rd cycle TM after your 5th cycle? He recommended this in Beyond 531. I'd do that and just restart your current cycle.
this was so helpful; thank you. it does happen to be cycle 6, and now that i've tried out those numbers they tally almost exactly with what i was able to do just last week for my 3's.
so this is great. i've been flailing around with this one for a few weeks already, trying for the prescribed weights but always backing off to wherever i felt i could hold onto my form. then i've been mostly concerned about moving on to the next week because those 'solid form' weights were so much lower than where i thought i ought to be at. so then i'd go back the next week saying 'well, i'm supposed to do x, but i'll just have to see how it goes . . . ' and come up solid but short once again. that's how come i've been doing week three of cycle 6 for a month
but with the adjustment it looks as if i've been on track after all, so i think i'll just pick right up from here and go on to the final work week instead of restarting the whole thing from scratch.
happy dance! thanks.2 -
I'd like to re open this discussion. I'm currently on my 5th cycle of 5/3/1 and have typically been getting at least 1 additional rep into my + sets. However, OHP has been the bane of my existence. I've been consistently able to do at 4 reps with 80lbs and I once-- by some miracle did 5 reps at this weight. Today was the beginning of my 5+ week and the top set was 80lbs. However, I wasn't able to hit 5 reps, only 4. So should I wait to drop the weight the next cycle and just see how this all plays out? (I have a projected max of 93lbs) or should I just drop working weight mid-cycle?0
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maranarasauce93 wrote: »I'd like to re open this discussion. I'm currently on my 5th cycle of 5/3/1 and have typically been getting at least 1 additional rep into my + sets. However, OHP has been the bane of my existence. I've been consistently able to do at 4 reps with 80lbs and I once-- by some miracle did 5 reps at this weight. Today was the beginning of my 5+ week and the top set was 80lbs. However, I wasn't able to hit 5 reps, only 4. So should I wait to drop the weight the next cycle and just see how this all plays out? (I have a projected max of 93lbs) or should I just drop working weight mid-cycle?
Finish out this cycle. If you hit your reps on the 3+ and 1+ weeks, chalk it up to having a bad training day and continue. If not, then reset your OHP TM next cycle. At 4x80, you'd have a projected 1RM of 91 - so a TM of 82.3 -
maranarasauce93 wrote: »I'd like to re open this discussion. I'm currently on my 5th cycle of 5/3/1 and have typically been getting at least 1 additional rep into my + sets. However, OHP has been the bane of my existence. I've been consistently able to do at 4 reps with 80lbs and I once-- by some miracle did 5 reps at this weight. Today was the beginning of my 5+ week and the top set was 80lbs. However, I wasn't able to hit 5 reps, only 4. So should I wait to drop the weight the next cycle and just see how this all plays out? (I have a projected max of 93lbs) or should I just drop working weight mid-cycle?
Finish out this cycle. If you hit your reps on the 3+ and 1+ weeks, chalk it up to having a bad training day and continue. If not, then reset your OHP TM next cycle. At 4x80, you'd have a projected 1RM of 91 - so a TM of 82.
So, I have chalked it up to a bad day. I just finished my 1+ week of C5, and I hit 90x2. On my 3+ week, I hit 85x3 so I was in the clear for that. So I think doing relatively heavy OHP for volume just isn't my cup of tea; I've been doing BBB for OHP at 50%, and that may be somewhat helping in increasing comfort.
For next cycle, I am going to listen to Jim's advice from beyond 5/3/1 (which i still need to buy); reset working weight to what it was for C3 and then build from there.0 -
Recalculate with your current 1rm or a near estimation with the formula he printed in book.
This only has to be done with the lift(s) that is failing.0 -
Did you reset to your 3rd cycle TM after your 5th cycle? He recommended this in Beyond 531. I'd do that and just restart your current cycle.
@jemhh I may have misinterpreted your post--and I really need to get beyond 5/3/1-- does wendler suggest only resetting to your 3rd cycle TM after cycle 5 only IF there is failure? I ask this because if I keep progressing typically, wave 3 of C6 would get VERY heavy, and it's almost nerve wracking to me.0 -
maranarasauce93 wrote: »Did you reset to your 3rd cycle TM after your 5th cycle? He recommended this in Beyond 531. I'd do that and just restart your current cycle.
@jemhh I may have misinterpreted your post--and I really need to get beyond 5/3/1-- does wendler suggest only resetting to your 3rd cycle TM after cycle 5 only IF there is failure? I ask this because if I keep progressing typically, wave 3 of C6 would get VERY heavy, and it's almost nerve wracking to me.
I believe it was an automatic reset, no need for failure. HOWEVER, I have read that he has now backed off the reset thing. I don't subscribe to his private forum so I don't really have other details on that.
I would just reset if you need it. Nothing wrong with that. Or go to all higher reps for awhile. Or just hit the required reps and then do 2-3 sets of FSL.
Higher reps tends to help me a lot.1 -
maranarasauce93 wrote: »Did you reset to your 3rd cycle TM after your 5th cycle? He recommended this in Beyond 531. I'd do that and just restart your current cycle.
@jemhh I may have misinterpreted your post--and I really need to get beyond 5/3/1-- does wendler suggest only resetting to your 3rd cycle TM after cycle 5 only IF there is failure? I ask this because if I keep progressing typically, wave 3 of C6 would get VERY heavy, and it's almost nerve wracking to me.
I believe it was an automatic reset, no need for failure. HOWEVER, I have read that he has now backed off the reset thing. I don't subscribe to his private forum so I don't really have other details on that.
I would just reset if you need it. Nothing wrong with that. Or go to all higher reps for awhile. Or just hit the required reps and then do 2-3 sets of FSL.
Higher reps tends to help me a lot.
Yeah I think I'm gonna just do a reset for next cycles. My OHP and deadlift have been stalling a bit; I'm not positive if I'd be successful at hitting the prescribed top sets for wave 1 and 2 of these for the 6th cycle (while I'm confident I can do the 1+ sets). So I'd rather play it safe.0 -
So, OP, I'm just wondering if your frustrstion is due to "failure" or just the fact that you've reached your max (or near max) genetic potential.
Whether we like it or not, there is that point where we cannot gain any more strength w/o resorting to drugs or some dramatic change in diet and/or programming.
Any chance this is the case for you? Just a thought . . .0 -
So, OP, I'm just wondering if your frustrstion is due to "failure" or just the fact that you've reached your max (or near max) genetic potential.
Whether we like it or not, there is that point where we cannot gain any more strength w/o resorting to drugs or some dramatic change in diet and/or programming.
Any chance this is the case for you? Just a thought . . .
Very doubtful that OP is near genetic max... most people will probably not ever come close to genetic max, let alone after three years of consistent lifting.3 -
What you need is volume.0
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So long story short, you didn't get your 3 minimum reps? I'm assuming that's the case, you didn't really say it but here we are...
Drop to 90-95% of your current training max (Wendler recommends 90% if I remember in the book), recalculate the program and keep going from there.
It doesn't really matter if you do your 5/3/1 week next week or just start over with 5s week. It really doesn't. If you have complete decision paralysis (and it sounds like you do) I'd probably just reset and start over with 5s if it were me.
This.
I'll also add you might want to look into some additional volume work on the main lift perhaps to help break the potential plateu. If you have the Beyond book, check out the "First Last Set" for example. Essentially, after the top set AMRAP you drop back down to first set working weight for 3-5 sets.
Example:
1x5x100
1x5x120
1x10x140 (AMRAP)
1x5x100
1x5x100
1x5x100
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Derp, I meant First Set Last.... and I see it was already mentioned after rereading now.0
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so many words not actually asking for advice.
facepalm.1 -
to add on to what @LolBroScience @DopeItUp and others have said...
It sounds like you are going too heavy with the wrong intensity from my point of view.
First, take a deload week at about 50% and get your head straight. Use the time to re-read the books.
Next, cut your Training Max for the exercise(s) you are having problems with by 85% and begin the 5's PRO: "5's Progression".
Yes, I said 85%. Why? Because when in doubt, JW wants you going lighter.
5's PRO means all main lift work sets, every week are for 5 reps.
There is no "3 week" or "5/3/1 week" anymore. All weeks are a "5 week", regardless of day or weight percentage.
DO NOT GO FOR REP PR'S WHEN DOING 5's PRO LIFTS.
Hit 5 reps and done. Not "5+" No extra reps on the main lifts. Only 5. Always 5:
"..then shalt thou count to FIVE, no more, no less. FIVE shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be FIVE. SIX shalt thou not count, neither count thou FOUR, excepting that thou then proceed to FIVE. SEVEN is right out. Once the number FIVE, being the FIFTH number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy BAR BELL of Antioch towards thy sky, who being WORTHY in My sight, shall BUFF it." -- Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9–21
Add 2 or 3 FSL ("First Set Last") sets of 5 to 7 reps afterwards.
Regardless, the extra volume will probably do it.
Just do Deadlifts, Squats, Bench and Press with 5's PRO for about 3 months and see how you are doing.
Some people like 5x5 FSL but that is a LOT of volume, IMO. Might work for you.
Stick to 2x5-7 or 3x5-7 FSL sets for a while.
Also eat more, rest better and make sure you are not overdoing the Accessory work.
No more than 1 Accessory per exercise.
Maybe add a set or two of pull-ups in the morning, presuming you lift in the evenings.
Like it or not, you will hit a point where you cannot be "cutting" while following 5/3/1.
Wendler makes this clear in 5/3/1 2E and Beyond.
This all presumes your TM was correct to begin with; I don't know your routine.
If you never really calculated your TM then take 85% of your last successfully completed cycle's weight and use that as your TM.
If you have questions, read Beyond 5/3/1 and re-read 5/3/1 Second Edition.
Here is to hoping you have read the books and actually understand the program instead of just pulling the basic framework off the internet.
* Read the books, support the man!
People frequently screw up 5/3/1 because they pull 1/2 the program off the internet and don't understand it.
Then they "tweak" it and wonder why they have problems...
* DO NOT DO Boring But Big WITH FSL! It makes JW mad and ruins your long-term progress.
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