Fast Metabolism Diet

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Replies

  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,322 Member
    psulemon wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    Stupid facts getting in the way of your feelers again I see.

    Some of the facts are:
    1) No one can actually accurately count calories in. Weight of food isn't enough because the makeup of food also varies and the base values are just estimates. The variations over geographic regions can be large. There are also variations in food based on what the weather was, the soil conditions and how the food was grown.
    2) The way calories are measured isn't the way calories are metabolized in the body. Different types of food is handled differently and even that varies depending on the needs of the body.
    3) There are many types of proteins, sugars and fats and the different types often metabolize completely differently. It isn't as simple as proteins, carbs and fats.
    4) Absorption what makes it into the bloodstream varies by many factors including the nutrients in the food, physical factors and even the bacterial mix living in the gut. (Typically over 100 trillion bacteria of several thousand different types.)
    5) No one can accurately measure how many calories are used every day. Even doing that in a lab is difficult and open to many errors. Again people of the same mass can use widely different amounts of calories.
    6) There are wide variations in peoples body functions and even small differences have large impacts on energy usages. These functions are largely out of people's direct control and these functions vary over time.
    7) Pretty much everything in the human body is driven by hormones. That goes from building or losing muscles, body temperature to storage of fat. For example a man and woman of the same mass eating the same amount with the same activity level will result in the woman have much higher bodyfat than the man. That is hormones in action.

    CICO is basically a gross reductionism which ignores a lot of important variables.

    So largely your argument against CICO is the inaccuracy of understanding what is actually your CI or CO. None of which actually disproves it. It just means its harder to understand where your sweet spot is. And while you may not be able to find that based on where you live, it's fairly easy to know I maintain weight at roughly 3000 calories. And I have figured this out a long time ago regardless if I ate Paleo, IF, IIFYM or whatever diet I ate. I know... shocking right. And I don't eat much added sugar.

    No, but that is a part of it. Again calories out isn't independent of calories in. That doesn't mean one can't force their weight up and if done for long enough probably set their body to a much higher weight. Forcing the weight down is normally much more difficult than forcing it up.

    The amount of calories is consumed is only one factor in body weight. Other factors include:
    * Type of calories (types of foods and ratios)
    * Amounts of micro nutrients available
    * Amounts of anti-nutrients like fiber
    * Hormone levels and resistance
    * Amounts of visceral fat
    * Activity levels and condition of lean body mass
    * Mixtures of bacteria living in the gut

    Probably even more ... Sometime one of these factors overwhelm everything else. For example if insulin is too low the body will literally eat itself no matter how much food is consumed. If insulin is too high even an extremely obese body could die form malnourishment. A CICO example would be a 280 kg person eating 14000 kc / day. Sure they will lose weight if the calories are reduced, at least to a point. However many are unable to succeed without surgery.

    However the biggest problem with CICO & exercise more is the limited success of it over the last fifty years. Since 1977 the US and now the world has been mostly gaining and obesity has really taken off. The vast majority of calorie restricted diets fail. It doesn't matter if the failure is compliance because hormones and drive a lot of behavior. The more CICO and exercise has been pushed the fatter the world has become. Even here at MFP there are probably many more failures than long term than successes. The people that do succeed either figure out how to make it work for them or are in a small group of people that CICO works well. Almost everyone else runs into issues. At best CICO and exercise are only part of the solution. At worst calorie restriction cost a lot of needless suffering. A solution that requires one to progressively starve themselves more and more in order to loss weight isn't much of a solution. I don't advocate overeating but I'm also against starving.

    I am fairly convinced that you do not even understand what CICO is and seemingly are arguing just to argue.


    You are just now coming to this realization?
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,942 Member
    edited October 2016
    dykask wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    Stupid facts getting in the way of your feelers again I see.

    Some of the facts are:
    1) No one can actually accurately count calories in. Weight of food isn't enough because the makeup of food also varies and the base values are just estimates. The variations over geographic regions can be large. There are also variations in food based on what the weather was, the soil conditions and how the food was grown.
    2) The way calories are measured isn't the way calories are metabolized in the body. Different types of food is handled differently and even that varies depending on the needs of the body.
    3) There are many types of proteins, sugars and fats and the different types often metabolize completely differently. It isn't as simple as proteins, carbs and fats.
    4) Absorption what makes it into the bloodstream varies by many factors including the nutrients in the food, physical factors and even the bacterial mix living in the gut. (Typically over 100 trillion bacteria of several thousand different types.)
    5) No one can accurately measure how many calories are used every day. Even doing that in a lab is difficult and open to many errors. Again people of the same mass can use widely different amounts of calories.
    6) There are wide variations in peoples body functions and even small differences have large impacts on energy usages. These functions are largely out of people's direct control and these functions vary over time.
    7) Pretty much everything in the human body is driven by hormones. That goes from building or losing muscles, body temperature to storage of fat. For example a man and woman of the same mass eating the same amount with the same activity level will result in the woman have much higher bodyfat than the man. That is hormones in action.

    CICO is basically a gross reductionism which ignores a lot of important variables.

    So largely your argument against CICO is the inaccuracy of understanding what is actually your CI or CO. None of which actually disproves it. It just means its harder to understand where your sweet spot is. And while you may not be able to find that based on where you live, it's fairly easy to know I maintain weight at roughly 3000 calories. And I have figured this out a long time ago regardless if I ate Paleo, IF, IIFYM or whatever diet I ate. I know... shocking right. And I don't eat much added sugar.

    No, but that is a part of it. Again calories out isn't independent of calories in. That doesn't mean one can't force their weight up and if done for long enough probably set their body to a much higher weight. Forcing the weight down is normally much more difficult than forcing it up.

    The amount of calories is consumed is only one factor in body weight. Other factors include:
    * Type of calories (types of foods and ratios)
    * Amounts of micro nutrients available
    * Amounts of anti-nutrients like fiber
    * Hormone levels and resistance
    * Amounts of visceral fat
    * Activity levels and condition of lean body mass
    * Mixtures of bacteria living in the gut

    Probably even more ... Sometime one of these factors overwhelm everything else. For example if insulin is too low the body will literally eat itself no matter how much food is consumed. If insulin is too high even an extremely obese body could die form malnourishment. A CICO example would be a 280 kg person eating 14000 kc / day. Sure they will lose weight if the calories are reduced, at least to a point. However many are unable to succeed without surgery.

    However the biggest problem with CICO & exercise more is the limited success of it over the last fifty years. Since 1977 the US and now the world has been mostly gaining and obesity has really taken off. The vast majority of calorie restricted diets fail. It doesn't matter if the failure is compliance because hormones and drive a lot of behavior. The more CICO and exercise has been pushed the fatter the world has become. Even here at MFP there are probably many more failures than long term than successes. The people that do succeed either figure out how to make it work for them or are in a small group of people that CICO works well. Almost everyone else runs into issues. At best CICO and exercise are only part of the solution. At worst calorie restriction cost a lot of needless suffering. A solution that requires one to progressively starve themselves more and more in order to loss weight isn't much of a solution. I don't advocate overeating but I'm also against starving.

    First of all, a person eating 14,000 calories will gain weight. Other than the initial weight loss of eating all that food, they will lose weight if they eat below their TDEE (total daily energy expenditure).

    If insulin is causing the problems you describe, a person needs to get to the doctor asap. In fact, medical don't fit into this conversation.

    The reason people are getting fatter is because they are eating more. Period.

    While personal preference and other such factors do come into play, they never negate the fact that eating at a calorie deficit is what causes weight loss. Sorry to break it to you, but you are eating below your TDEE if you are losing weight. Sugar in and of itself does not cause weight gain, and eliminating it does not cause weight loss. No foods have magic properties to cause weight loss.

    The fact that you don't advocate overeating and are also against starving is black and white. If eating at a calorie deficit causes someone to starve, then they're not doing it right.
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    psulemon wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »
    Hornsby wrote: »
    Stupid facts getting in the way of your feelers again I see.

    Some of the facts are:
    1) No one can actually accurately count calories in. Weight of food isn't enough because the makeup of food also varies and the base values are just estimates. The variations over geographic regions can be large. There are also variations in food based on what the weather was, the soil conditions and how the food was grown.
    2) The way calories are measured isn't the way calories are metabolized in the body. Different types of food is handled differently and even that varies depending on the needs of the body.
    3) There are many types of proteins, sugars and fats and the different types often metabolize completely differently. It isn't as simple as proteins, carbs and fats.
    4) Absorption what makes it into the bloodstream varies by many factors including the nutrients in the food, physical factors and even the bacterial mix living in the gut. (Typically over 100 trillion bacteria of several thousand different types.)
    5) No one can accurately measure how many calories are used every day. Even doing that in a lab is difficult and open to many errors. Again people of the same mass can use widely different amounts of calories.
    6) There are wide variations in peoples body functions and even small differences have large impacts on energy usages. These functions are largely out of people's direct control and these functions vary over time.
    7) Pretty much everything in the human body is driven by hormones. That goes from building or losing muscles, body temperature to storage of fat. For example a man and woman of the same mass eating the same amount with the same activity level will result in the woman have much higher bodyfat than the man. That is hormones in action.

    CICO is basically a gross reductionism which ignores a lot of important variables.

    So largely your argument against CICO is the inaccuracy of understanding what is actually your CI or CO. None of which actually disproves it. It just means its harder to understand where your sweet spot is. And while you may not be able to find that based on where you live, it's fairly easy to know I maintain weight at roughly 3000 calories. And I have figured this out a long time ago regardless if I ate Paleo, IF, IIFYM or whatever diet I ate. I know... shocking right. And I don't eat much added sugar.

    No, but that is a part of it. Again calories out isn't independent of calories in. That doesn't mean one can't force their weight up and if done for long enough probably set their body to a much higher weight. Forcing the weight down is normally much more difficult than forcing it up.

    The amount of calories is consumed is only one factor in body weight. Other factors include:
    * Type of calories (types of foods and ratios)
    * Amounts of micro nutrients available
    * Amounts of anti-nutrients like fiber
    * Hormone levels and resistance
    * Amounts of visceral fat
    * Activity levels and condition of lean body mass
    * Mixtures of bacteria living in the gut

    Probably even more ... Sometime one of these factors overwhelm everything else. For example if insulin is too low the body will literally eat itself no matter how much food is consumed. If insulin is too high even an extremely obese body could die form malnourishment. A CICO example would be a 280 kg person eating 14000 kc / day. Sure they will lose weight if the calories are reduced, at least to a point. However many are unable to succeed without surgery.

    However the biggest problem with CICO & exercise more is the limited success of it over the last fifty years. Since 1977 the US and now the world has been mostly gaining and obesity has really taken off. The vast majority of calorie restricted diets fail. It doesn't matter if the failure is compliance because hormones and drive a lot of behavior. The more CICO and exercise has been pushed the fatter the world has become. Even here at MFP there are probably many more failures than long term than successes. The people that do succeed either figure out how to make it work for them or are in a small group of people that CICO works well. Almost everyone else runs into issues. At best CICO and exercise are only part of the solution. At worst calorie restriction cost a lot of needless suffering. A solution that requires one to progressively starve themselves more and more in order to loss weight isn't much of a solution. I don't advocate overeating but I'm also against starving.

    I am fairly convinced that you do not even understand what CICO is and seemingly are arguing just to argue.


    You are just now coming to this realization?

    Beat me to it by 27-28 minutes.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited October 2016
    This may help (or maybe not).

    To lose weight, one must eat less than one needs to maintain weight, so that your body is forced to go to stored fat for energy. Dykask, you keep suggesting that a "calorie restricted diet" must be miserable, since you are in essence starving, but if starving means eating less than you mean to maintain so that you burn stored fat (which is what a calorie restriction is, yes), then that's the case ANY TIME you are eating in a way that causes weight loss.

    You assert (without support, but oh well) that you eat as many or more calories now and lose, when you were maintaining before. IF that is true (and I admit I don't believe it is), then what that means is that you are burning more calories now than you were then -- you are "moving more" in some way (which maybe is your body wasting more calories in its processes -- inefficient as that would be -- or you feeling better and so moving more without noticing it or being more effective in workouts or who knows). In any case, to the extent that what you burn overall increases, the same calories would be deficit calories and therefore "starving" or a "calorie restriction" just as much as when you are counting and creating one in that manner. It's similar to me figuring my maintenance calories when sedentary and exercising but not logging calories from exercise (which is what I have done in the past, successfully, and am considering trying again).

    The only times you don't have a calorie-restricted diet is if you are gaining or maintaining.

    Ultimately, then, this is a discussion not of your body not magically losing weight despite a calorie restriction, but what are the easiest and least painful ways for an individual to have a calorie restriction? That varies person from person and, as BurnEm said, for some counting can be not a good way, even though for many of us it is. (I again think that some people freak at the notion of restricting calories and start to feel more hungry, so for them other methods are better, unless it's something they can get over.)

    Also, I'm bored of the claims that it's so hard to avoid added sugar in the US. I don't think one needs to, but if you don't eat lots of packaged foods or choose packaged foods (like dried pasta or dried or canned beans or steel cut oats) without sugar, it's as easy as anywhere. For all your digs at the US supposedly being a hard place to find plain ole meat (including fish) and produce, it's easy, and from your own posts you seem to eat an awful lot of packaged and prepared foods, just different ones, so maybe it's natural that you assume that it's necessary to do that, who knows.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    I really don't get the whole argument how it's hard to avoid sugar, either. While I'm not afraid of it, I don't particularly eat a lot of it because I like my own cooking and I'm a scratch cook.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited October 2016
    It is great we have a variety of diet approaches to choose from.

    I've found some techniques that help me stay in a deficit comfortably due to posters sharing their success on MFP. For that I am thankful. I have to be aware and mindful that works for me won't work for everyone.
  • pasewaldd
    pasewaldd Posts: 24 Member
    And we all agree that muscle weighs more then fat... and if you don't eat enough calories it can take your muscle instead of your fat, right?

  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    Oh, no. You went "there."
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    pasewaldd wrote: »
    And we all agree that muscle weighs more then fat... and if you don't eat enough calories it can take your muscle instead of your fat, right?

    Answer to that can be found here.

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10460011/the-ultimate-guide-to-mfp#latest
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    edited October 2016
    For the longest time I thought that I had "slow metabolism", but now I realize it is normal for my age.
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    psulemon wrote: »
    pasewaldd wrote: »
    And we all agree that muscle weighs more then fat... and if you don't eat enough calories it can take your muscle instead of your fat, right?

    Answer to that can be found here.

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10460011/the-ultimate-guide-to-mfp#latest

    Nice save.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited October 2016
    DebSozo wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »

    I actually was consuming more calories because I added a lot of healthier foods to my diet, rather high in heathier fat. There isn't very many calories in sugar compared to fat. Also I added complex carbs at my doctor's request which have similar calories to sugar. I had started out to make a calorie deficit but decided that wasn't what I needed or wanted.

    In my case it wasn't just about calories it was about my liver not handling the fructose very well. Besides I've lost more weight in the past with much less improvement in body measurements. There is a lot more to weight loss than just calories. The energy balance happens but we don't control what our bodies do with the calories or how much calories our body uses. Ideally we want our body to burn more fat to balance out demands, but short of fasting or forcing yourself into ketosis you can't really force your body to burn fat. Mostly one is just putting in a request and hoping for the best.

    Excessive amounts of fructose cause many people problems. While my consumption wasn't that high, I had enough decades of it to cause problems with my liver. Glucose isn't an issue but Fructose is. Additionally I've experimented since then. I can have a sugary desert once in a while but my hunger afterwards increases. If I do it two days in a row it the hunger gets to be bad again. Cut the sugar and the hunger is gone after a day. It might be in my head, but it isn't pleasant.

    Medical conditions and surgery excluded; you cannot lose weight without a calorie deficit. I am not talking about hunger, cravings or anything else just fat loss.

    It's a heck of a lot easier to maintain a deficit when you aren't as hungry. If eating a low-sugar diet helps some people stay full and satisfied at a lower calorie level, it's going to make it easier for them to lose weight. *shrug*

    So true. I was hungry quite a bit on high carb. When I upped the healthy fats and lowered the net carbs my appetite quelled.

    But that's not what dykask is arguing and absolutely no one disagrees that eating in a way that helps with appetite (if appetite is a problem for you) is important.

    Curious what you consider high here? Like 50%?

    For me, total amount of carbs makes no difference, although carb choice and how much protein I eat make my diet more or less satiating.

    (But I also know I didn't overeat because of hunger. I ate a really high carb/low fat diet compared to my usual when I was on a service trip in Nicaragua, for example (and was quite active), but was never hungry since there were specific eating times and you just didn't have the expectation that you'd reach for food all day long.

    But of course I do acknowledge that people are different and for some reducing carbs in and of itself may help. (I do think that outside of keto this is usually about changing overall diet and less about carb percentage, and that keto itself has an affect on appetite, at least for many.)
  • DebSozo
    DebSozo Posts: 2,578 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    DebSozo wrote: »
    dykask wrote: »

    I actually was consuming more calories because I added a lot of healthier foods to my diet, rather high in heathier fat. There isn't very many calories in sugar compared to fat. Also I added complex carbs at my doctor's request which have similar calories to sugar. I had started out to make a calorie deficit but decided that wasn't what I needed or wanted.

    In my case it wasn't just about calories it was about my liver not handling the fructose very well. Besides I've lost more weight in the past with much less improvement in body measurements. There is a lot more to weight loss than just calories. The energy balance happens but we don't control what our bodies do with the calories or how much calories our body uses. Ideally we want our body to burn more fat to balance out demands, but short of fasting or forcing yourself into ketosis you can't really force your body to burn fat. Mostly one is just putting in a request and hoping for the best.

    Excessive amounts of fructose cause many people problems. While my consumption wasn't that high, I had enough decades of it to cause problems with my liver. Glucose isn't an issue but Fructose is. Additionally I've experimented since then. I can have a sugary desert once in a while but my hunger afterwards increases. If I do it two days in a row it the hunger gets to be bad again. Cut the sugar and the hunger is gone after a day. It might be in my head, but it isn't pleasant.

    Medical conditions and surgery excluded; you cannot lose weight without a calorie deficit. I am not talking about hunger, cravings or anything else just fat loss.

    It's a heck of a lot easier to maintain a deficit when you aren't as hungry. If eating a low-sugar diet helps some people stay full and satisfied at a lower calorie level, it's going to make it easier for them to lose weight. *shrug*

    So true. I was hungry quite a bit on high carb. When I upped the healthy fats and lowered the net carbs my appetite quelled.

    But that's not what dykask is arguing and absolutely no one disagrees that eating in a way that helps with appetite (if appetite is a problem for you) is important.

    Curious what you consider high here? Like 50%?

    For me, total amount of carbs makes no difference, although carb choice and how much protein I eat make my diet more or less satiating.

    (But I also know I didn't overeat because of hunger. I ate a really high carb/low fat diet compared to my usual when I was on a service trip in Nicaragua, for example (and was quite active), but was never hungry since there were specific eating times and you just didn't have the expectation that you'd reach for food all day long.

    But of course I do acknowledge that people are different and for some reducing carbs in and of itself may help. (I do think that outside of keto this is usually about changing overall diet and less about carb percentage, and that keto itself has an affect on appetite, at least for many.)

    I was agreeing with clicketykeys for myself personally, not disagreeing with you. You are understanding of what my experience has been.