gaining muscle whilst having some fat

brentfostwood904

I know about bulking, usually guys can eat a lot to gain muscle and some fat at the same time, then cut to lose the fat, but what if someone was say 20-25% bodyfat and they just wanted to maybe stay at that amount of bodyfat but just gain muscle, in this case it wouldnt really be recommended to be in a calorie surplus would it? And what about being in a slight calorie deficit? Would it still be possible to "bulk" up whilst getting a little leaner as the body could turn to some of its stored fat for energy, or does being in even a slight calorie deficit at 20-25% bodyfat just make muscle gain much more difficult?

trigden1991

I am going to be real here which you may not want to hear. If you think you are 20-25% then you are likely higher! You definitely should not be bulking when you are that fat. Cut down till you are sub 15% (ideally nearer 12%) before you even consider trying to gain muscle.

The more fat you have, the worse your calorie partitioning is so you are more susceptible to gaining fat.

brentfostwood904

im not really interested in cutting though, i mean i dont ever really want to be 15% bodyfat. Ideally I'd be 115-120kg and 20% bodyfat. I dont really want to be over say 23% bodyfat, and I dont want to be under say 18% bodyfat. As long as I stay in that range I'm happy. I have no interest in ever going down to something like 12%. But what I am doing is focusing on gaining muscle and strength, but not cutting. But my question is if someone is already in their ideal fat range what's the best thing to do regarding a surplus of calories for gaining muscle.. can the body use some of its stored fat instead of a person eating a calorie surplus to fuel muscle growth, or does this make gaining muscle more difficult. Otherwise right now I will just eat an amount equal to what I think I'm burning in the day, which I guess will maintain the fat % whilst not increasing it, and fuel the muscle growth too.

brentfostwood904

and im asking because ive been making alright strength gains whilst just maintaining my current fat levels really, but i want to make sure there isnt a more efficient way to do it that anyone knows about haha, like if you can gain muscle faster with bulking and cutting rather than keeping your fat levels the same, even if youre not bothered about being "shredded" in the end.

trigden1991

I'm not sure you understand the physiology behind it all but if you are set on not cutting or gaining too much fat then eat at maintenance and lift. Any calorie surplus will cause you to gain weight which will be muscle and fat. As you are quite fat already, the proportion of fat to muscle is greater.

I highly advise that you research a bit more as your plan is likely to see you get fatter!

brentfostwood904

yeah getting fatter I dont want, Im at my ideal fat % right now really. I just want to stay as fat as I am right now, but gain more muscle.

trigden1991

Good luck to you.

cqbkaju

@trigden1991 is right.

First, you are probably over the percentage you think you are.
Second, if you are not worried about getting fatter then do what you want.

Otherwise I recommend you listen to people with more experience.
Cut to 10% - 12% and then bulk until around 15%.
Rinse and repeat. It is simple, effective, and proven to work.
Simple is not the same as "easy"...

When your body fat is over 15% or so then your hormone levels are not ideal for putting on muscle.
In fact, your body chemistry is more prone to adding fat than muscle.
You cannot have it both ways.

When you say I you are at your ideal at ~ 25% body fat, I hear that you do not want to eat properly.
I don't even think anyone in the perma-bulk crowd feels that 20% to 25% body fat -about one quarter of your body weight as fat!- is ideal.

Then there is the question of your workouts themselves...
It is virtually impossible to out-train a bad diet.
If you will not put in the work in the kitchen then I question your dedication to do the work in the gym.

If you want to be fit then do what you must to be fit.

If you are looking for someone to just tell you what you want to hear then you are probably in the wrong place.
If you want advice on how to be fit, then we can help you.

Look into Bigger, Leaner, Stronger if you want to learn about nutrition.
BLS comes with a complete training program and is full of good information, even though Mike Matthews comes across as a bit preachy at times.

You can also look into Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength, StrongLifts5x5 and Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 if you just want to get strong - but you still must eat appropriately.

All of these systems presume you have access to a barbell, squat rack and will work hard.

As I beginner, I would read Starting Strength and BLS, follow SL5x5 for about 6 or 8 months (until I reach the end of my noob gains) and then move to 5/3/1 maybe with Boring But Big or First Set Last at 12, 10 and 8 reps.

brentfostwood904

I dont want to have more fat than I have right now, but I dont want to have less either.

I dont eat a bad diet (when I eat properly). I eat mostly meat and vegetables.

I will explain to you the reasons why I would prefer to be 18-23% bodyfat and I dont want to be 12-15% bodyfat.

1. I am very into different martial arts, especially heavyweight fighters (Ive done various martial arts in my time). Now lets take the UFC as an example, theres two types of fighters in the heavyweight division (which has a 120kg cut off limit), there are those who walk over 120kg (maybe they walk around 130kg) who cut down to the 120kg limit for their fight, these are fighters like Roy Nelson, Mark Hunt, Ben Rothwell (all the ones who are walking at 130kg have a decent amount of fat, apart from steroid cheats like brock lesnar). Then there are fighters who are lean and walk at a lighter weight like for example Junior Dos Santos who weighs in and walks at 108kg. If you dont know who these people are look at pictures of them online and you'll see the big difference. Now the heavier (fatter) guys actually have some advantages, they hit harder since force = mass x acceleration and their arms are simply heavier, they can take a harder punch the hardest chins are on the guys with more bodyfat (coincidence? maybe but maybe not), and they are obviously harder to push around and worse to have lying on top of you. On the flip side, the lighter guys like Junior are much faster. Now Junior did beat both Hunt and Rothwell simply by being faster, and for MMA actually the ideal weight is probably around 110kg not more than 115kg. When guys get heavier than that they start getting too slow. But at the same time if you watch a ligher guy fight one of the heavier ones they are always on the back foot and very very cautious of their power. Now for street fighting rather than an MMA match, I think having the advantages of the extra bulk is actually superior to the speed, so for this I prefer the heavier guys.

2. Powerlifters tend to have more fat (so im sure you can put on muscle easily whilst having fat no?!), its easier to push things around if youre heavier yourself (especially if you can put your weight into things), fat gives you more energy, and I've even read that fat helps muscle attach to the bones better, so for example if you take two guys who have a lean mass of 80kg, then give one of those guys 8kg of bodyfat, give the other 15kg of bodyfat, so their total weights are 88kg and 95kg.. well the guy who weighs 95kg will be stronger at most things even though they both have the same lean mass.

3. I am not wanting to be a bodybuilder. Aesthetically I dont think that being low bodyfat looks good. For some people they think it looks great, for me I dont think it looks good, I dont want to insult anyone but for me personally guys with abs and a shaved chest and tan etc. look kind of metrosexual and like they care too much about their appearance. I think a real manly man has muscle and some fat. I would like to put on as much muscle as I can, because I want to be as strong as I can, but I'd like to be at say 20% bodyfat, not really low bodyfat like a bodybuilder who is doing it for a show.

4. I am also very into outdoor survival and I will be moving to sweden probably where its cold so extra fat is good for warmth, and fat is good as an energy reserve.. I basically think that a normal man is SUPPOSED to have some fat and not be very low % bodyfat.

If you want me to tell you what I'd be happy like to look like, I'd be happy being like the UFC fighter Cain Velasquez, he weighs 110kg and he looks like he might be about 20% bodyfat. But looking at a calculator to see my potential mass, I should easily be able to hit 115kg at 20% bodyfat.

Right now I'm at around 100kg, so my goal is really to just gain around 15kg of muscle over the next few years (I have already gained some I'm not new to working out and just pure fat)

brentfostwood904

but what I want to know is, since I want to stay at around 20% bodyfat, is it recommended to just eat a maintenence amount of calories whilst lifting weights (is gaining muscle whilst eating a maintenence amount efficient?), or to eat a surplus and go over like go up to 25% fat then drop back down to 20 (would this maybe help to gain muscle faster and be worth it? because my ideal cutting weight is so much higher bulking too high might not be such a good idea).. or would it be a good idea to even be in a deficit.. say to drop down to 15%, then start eating a surplus and gaining fat and muscle back up to 20%. Right now I'm just trying to maintain 20% bodyfat whilst building muscle but I'm not sure if it's the most efficient way to reach my goal.

cqbkaju

Like I said, do what you want. You clearly want to do things your own way.
Somehow violating the laws of thermodynamics and ignoring basic biology in the process.
You cannot choose to "just add muscle" without adding some fat. It is always a balancing act.
Have your body fat professionally measured and go from there.
Follow a strength program. I already listed the top 3.

Your posts are more like asking for permission than advice.
You aren't going to get permission from me. I am not your parents.

As for "UFC", training as a fighter, etc. it seems like you have not read my profile and you are trying to justify your choices.
I actively train and coach winning fighters, who are in the ring and cage.
I was taught by Royce Gracie in the 90's, probably before you ever heard of the UFC or "MMA", since you were about 8 at the time.

If you are actively training for the ring then talk to your fight coach about your goals, otherwise follow SS, SL5x5 or 5/3/1.

brentfostwood904

well no im asking for the advice i asked in my second post. But yeah Im not asking for advice on what bodyfat people want me to be, I know I want to be 20%. I dont want your advice telling me that you want me to be 10-15% bodyfat. I'm asking for advice on the most efficient way to eat to gain muscle whilst reaching my goal which is being 20% bodyfat and more or less as muscular as I can get.

I'm 28 and I started training when I was 16, which was in around 2003, but I dont really care that you started martial arts training in the 90s or heard of MMA before I did, that's not really relevant to me. By the way, I will do some amateur fighting sure, not just in MMA but in other sports too like Judo and muay thai, but I dont want to be a professional fighter, but I love martial arts and I want to be well built as well as good at martial arts. But sure if you know fighting then you cant deny to me that a guy who has reached his muscular potential and weighs 120kg+ with some bodyfat on top of that doesnt have some advantages in a fight.. For me I just want to be like 110-115kg thats just the ideal I want. I just ask for the advice to get there, but not advice to desire something else such as I must desire to be 90kg or I am wrong.

bigbuffbarry

Eat at maintenance calories. I'm 300lbs. Last 5 months my weight hasnt changed much but my squat went from 335 to 375. Dead from 455 to 495. Bench from 340 to 375. Ohp 245 to 265. Gains are slowing a lot now so im going to bulk to about 320 and do the same. Obviously I dont care about being lean. To each their own. Hope it helps

cqbkaju

bigbuffbarry wrote: »

Ohp 245 to 265.

Respectable lift, even at your weight. Kudos.

brentfostwood904

bigbuffbarry wrote: »

Eat at maintenance calories. I'm 300lbs. Last 5 months my weight hasnt changed much but my squat went from 335 to 375. Dead from 455 to 495. Bench from 340 to 375. Ohp 245 to 265. Gains are slowing a lot now so im going to bulk to about 320 and do the same. Obviously I dont care about being lean. To each their own. Hope it helps

well yeah that is really good to know. Right now I'm making good progress with strength too and if anything actually im losing some fat from doing other exercise, but what worries me now is where your improvement stopped and so now youre deciding to bulk... im not sure if I want to bulk past my current bodyfat when I hit a wall in strength gains too.. so not sure what I will do there. I'm wondering if when that happens I can cut instead, then bulk back up to my ideal fat whilst gaining more muscle haha. its like cutting and bulking but reversed.. I dont know do you think that would be a good idea considering my ideal fat amount?

brentfostwood904

cqbkaju wrote: »

If you are actively training for the ring then talk to your fight coach about your goals, otherwise follow SS, SL5x5 or 5/3/1.

I dont train for a professional fight but my muay thai trainer does train a lot of professional fighters and I can have amateur fights but I'm not interested in being a professional fighter. I am kind of training for the ring though because my classes are mixed in with all the pro fighters.. even though im not actually going in the ring haha. Really my main obsession is training in martial arts for the street with no rules, I dont go out looking to fight people on purpose of course but I'm just really interested in unrestricted martial arts as a hobby. If I wanted to be a pro fighter in anything sure I would probably want to be 10-15% fat or something.. unless its for judo competitions then I'd rather be fatter I think. Since I'm already at the 100kg+ limit anyway for judo so may as well get bigger lol. But yeah my goals are to just basically be like a heavyweight no rules martial artist/beast powerlifter/manly man haha.

bigbuffbarry

Sounds good man. PERSONALLY, I wouldn't. I've cut before and strength goes down. For me my ultimate goal is strength, so when the lifts drop I get really unmotivated.
Honestly, you won't know what you like until you try it. If you are personally happy with your bodyfat then give er man. Don't go by somebody elses goals if it's going to mess yours up. If you want to cut, then cut. If you want to bulk then bulk. If you are happy with how things are going then great, if not then change it up. Give it a college try and assess.

brentfostwood904

bigbuffbarry wrote: »

Sounds good man. PERSONALLY, I wouldn't. I've cut before and strength goes down. For me my ultimate goal is strength, so when the lifts drop I get really unmotivated.
Honestly, you won't know what you like until you try it. If you are personally happy with your bodyfat then give er man. Don't go by somebody elses goals if it's going to mess yours up. If you want to cut, then cut. If you want to bulk then bulk. If you are happy with how things are going then great, if not then change it up. Give it a college try and assess.

Ah ok. My goal is practical strength too. I think I will have to just stick as I am, eat at maintenence, and if I hit a wall maybe try to change up my routine a lot instead of bulking or cutting (since I like the fat % I have right now). Thanks a lot for the advice.

se015

OP should eat at maintenance calories, while doing a good solid lifting routine, and a couple of days of HIIT cardio. Also, look into the Renegade diet, it helps burn fat and you don't have to restrict calories.

brentfostwood904

oh yeah I watched some videos of people (weight lifters) talking about fasting, shortly before I went to morocco and it was ramadan at the time, so yeah the idea interested me too. The idea of eating from say 12pm to 8pm seems good, I will probably give that a try. The only problem is I find it hard to eat enough if I have to cram all my food into a short few hours, my stomach just gets too full and I end up eating all day just to eat enough calories really, like a whole chicken might take me 3hrs to slowly eat, even if I'm hungry but my stomach can just feel too physically full! I will try that though thanks because it's an interesting idea.

sllm1

Eat at maintenance and lift.