Lifting over the shoulders a no-no?
GiddyupTim
Posts: 2,819 Member
Help me out here.
I have a friend I play tennis with. His shoulder is strained, and hurts him quite a bit. Though he can warm it up and get over the stiffness and discomfort, it is enough of a problem that he has consulted a few physical therapists.
I suggested that he strengthen the shoulder with weights, before he does serious, irreparable damage, with exercises like the military press.
Well, he stops me immediately.
No, no, NO! he says. My physical therapists have all told me: Never do those exercises where you lift your elbows above your shoulders.
He said they were quite adamant about this, that the military press and shoulder lifts, are dangerous and should not be done, particularly not by 'older' (over 50 years) people.
He said his PT specifically mentioned baseball throwers, and how they ruin their shoulders, because they are lifting that shoulder up to throw.
I said: "no. They hurt their shoulder because throwing is a violent motion." But he said his PTs were quite insistent.
This is not the first time I have heard from people who have cited physical therapists who say one should not military press or do any other exercise where you lift your hands above your head.
Has anyone else heard this? Do you give it credence? Do you know where this idea comes from?
I have a friend I play tennis with. His shoulder is strained, and hurts him quite a bit. Though he can warm it up and get over the stiffness and discomfort, it is enough of a problem that he has consulted a few physical therapists.
I suggested that he strengthen the shoulder with weights, before he does serious, irreparable damage, with exercises like the military press.
Well, he stops me immediately.
No, no, NO! he says. My physical therapists have all told me: Never do those exercises where you lift your elbows above your shoulders.
He said they were quite adamant about this, that the military press and shoulder lifts, are dangerous and should not be done, particularly not by 'older' (over 50 years) people.
He said his PT specifically mentioned baseball throwers, and how they ruin their shoulders, because they are lifting that shoulder up to throw.
I said: "no. They hurt their shoulder because throwing is a violent motion." But he said his PTs were quite insistent.
This is not the first time I have heard from people who have cited physical therapists who say one should not military press or do any other exercise where you lift your hands above your head.
Has anyone else heard this? Do you give it credence? Do you know where this idea comes from?
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Replies
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i have, or more accurately i came across this idea in the ohp chapter of starting strength. rippetoe gets pretty aerated about it, for whatever that's worth.
it's anyone's guess when rip is on the money and when he's off on planet him being stubborn about some slightly-crackpot idea. but as far as it goes, my experience supports his contention, which is actually your idea too. with the proviso that i put in some physio time my own self to deal with impingement and internal rotation before the press became my most-comfortable lift.
the impingement had nothing to do with pressing. it was actually most-probably caused by bench press in so far as it was caused by anything that i did in the gym. but shoulder issues are verry individual so i'd be cautious as heck about taking one person's word on the internet to be proof of anything where your friend is concerned.
eta: anecdotal, but my sister was a competitive swimmer for years in her teens and 20's. 'her' stroke was the butterfly and she's come down with all kinds of cumulative rear-rotator damage now in her late late 40's. idk what her pt's had her doing, but she called it 'the heil hitler salute'. sounds like it might have been lower trapezius work, can't do that with your hands not in the air.1 -
A chiropractor told me the same thing (no exercises involving lifting over the shoulders) for my neck. I've ignored that piece of advice.0
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Personally, I suspect that PTs get this notion because they only see people who are injured. You get a skewed perspective on the world.
So they ask: How did you injure it? And, the injured person answers: I was using it. So, the PT says: Well, don't use it then! And they get this mistaken notion.
But they never see the people who have no problem, the people who have pressed for years, and used their shoulders and kept them healthy.
It's like doctors telling you about health. They aren't trained in health. They are trained in sickness. They usually don't see healthy people, because who wants to pay to go to the doctor when there is no problem?2 -
unless you're a PT or an MD who's also sports medicine specialist, probably not a good idea to give advice to someone with an injury or long term problem as you don't know what's actually causing it.
i tore each of my rotator cuffs in several places, different muscles on each side, and it took me years to heal... well, actually i'm still healing. doing certain things can not only cause me major pain, but the pain (and sometimes re-injuring) can last for months.3 -
itsbasschick wrote: »unless you're a PT or an MD who's also sports medicine specialist, probably not a good idea to give advice to someone with an injury or long term problem as you don't know what's actually causing it.
really true. however i always insist on the pts or mds or sm specialists telling me exactly what's causing my stuff and backing up their prohibitions with walkthroughs of exactly why. i've got a bulletproof way of making them do it too - i just quite genuinely fail to get it until they provide me with that.
a pt who can only say 'bad for you' or 'i said so' is someone whose fee should be going to somebody else.
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^ I understand what you are saying. 'Tis true. But he told me that the PTs informed him that, since he can warm up and have no discomfort, that is a sign that he has not done any serious damage to the joint, the ligaments, the rotator cuff, etc.
Plus, I was just suggesting that maybe he explore it.0 -
I threw my shoulder out pitching too much with bad form when I was in high school. My shoulder hurt for the next 25 years.
Worked on my form for OHP sometime in my early forties. I no longer gave shoulder pain and I still play baseball as a catcher with college players.
Perhaps your friend has something different then me though.
Some doctors really give bad advice when it comes to lifting.1 -
pts and drs can be way too conservative when giving advice, its easier for them to say just dont do it, rather than say its ok and have you sue them when you get injured . I've been doing OHP as llong as i can remember and my shoulders are fine. But, i know people with injuries that can't do ohp or must do it modified. Listen to your own body and decide for yourself. Dont do anything that causes pain.
a lot of day to day activities require us to reach up over our heads, staying strong with this movement will hopefully prevent any injuries while doing so.0 -
I've thrown out my shoulder. And I am sometimes reminded of it on the court. For me form/angle have a lot to do with it. I have found practicing "whole body activation" or following through with the body is necessary to avoid throwing out the shoulder in a serve. I would get a tennis coach to check his form while warming up. And ask the coach for a trainer referral.
Bottoms-up kettle bell holds help strengthen my shoulder. Since these are performed using one arm at a time I can get the angle right and avoid any impingement. I also think strengthening the surrounding muscles help stabilize. I like a variety of rows and single-arm band work as accessory work. OHP doesn't bother my shoulder.0 -
I'm 66 (one of those "older" people who aren't supposed to do them) but my 1RM for the OHP is 125# at 162# BW.
I have never hurt myself doing an OHP even after having had 2 rotator cuff surgeries and a broken clavicle.
The key is to lift w/proper form and to not try to lift so far beyond your capacity to do so that you cannot maintain your form w/o risking injury.
Do that and I wouldn't worry about injuring yourself regardless of what lift you are trying to do.0 -
A couple of years ago I remember reading a study evaluating how most shoulder injuries happen in people who lift, and the military press and behind the neck pulldowns were the worst. Something about creating instability in the rotator. They evaluated people with some 5+ years lifting experience with no current injuries and put them through a number of lifts that involve shoulders, then performed certain tests after each lift. More instability was found in lifts that involved the "high five" position.2
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I'm 66 (one of those "older" people who aren't supposed to do them) but my 1RM for the OHP is 125# at 162# BW.
I have never hurt myself doing an OHP even after having had 2 rotator cuff surgeries and a broken clavicle.
The key is to lift w/proper form and to not try to lift so far beyond your capacity to do so that you cannot maintain your form w/o risking injury.
Do that and I wouldn't worry about injuring yourself regardless of what lift you are trying to do.
Just an addition: While I don't disagree in principle, "Lift with proper form" is often easier said than done, especially when it comes to shoulders. It's my observation that mastering scapular stability is one of the most difficult things for people to do. I would say that less than half the people I see in the gym have their shoulders in the correct position when lifting. And I also find that, by far, it's the hardest thing to teach.
I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against any lift or exercise, but I can understand where the "no overhead lifting" sentiment arises. I don't set any artificial limits on my clients, but, since I have it available, I do find myself using a landmine press more and more for them to do the heavier shoulder work.
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From an OT perspective: The only time overhead movements are NOT ok is if there is some sort of precaution that the person has such as a torn rotator cuff or if they just underwent a coronary artery bypass graft. In general, I think overhead pressing is fine, so long as someone is using proper form and that they don't do it more than 2x's a week. Overuse can be a major cause for injury, and the shoulder joint (glenohumeral) being one of the most mobile joints in the body is more susceptible to injury from overuse.0
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Interesting discussion here. I'm a strength coach and I'm hearing more of this lately as well. We do a lot of overhead stuff. Military press, snatch, jerk, push Press, etc.1
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When I was rehabbing my rotator cuffs I was instructed not to do OH press...once I was healed, my PT told me I could go ahead with them...I had to start out pretty light..
There are a lot of good things you can do to rehab shoulders, but I don't think OH press is necessarily one of them. I have a friend who is also a trainer and has a shoulder impingement and he can't do OH press at all because he simply doesn't have the mobility to do them with proper form.1 -
We do Cuban presses as well to help strengthen the rotators. Band pull-aparts and other band exercises for injury prevention. There are ways to strengthen the shoulders without OH presses.0
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We do Cuban presses as well to help strengthen the rotators. Band pull-aparts and other band exercises for injury prevention. There are ways to strengthen the shoulders without OH presses.
Yes. When I did clinical work, theraband pull aparts were the #1 exercise we would give to anyone with a rotator cuff tear or shoulder impingement. Just make sure when these are done that the elbow remains at the side of the body to prevent the use of over compensation and shoulder aggravation.0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »This is not the first time I have heard from people who have cited physical therapists who say one should not military press or do any other exercise where you lift your hands above your head.
Lifting overhead is a normal, natural human movement that's common in everyday life, which automatically makes it a valid movement to train.. at least for those without pre-existing shoulder problems, poor posture, or bad form.
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^ See. that is what I think too. But I believe those PTs who advise against lifting above the shoulder say "no, not true." The shoulder is made for pulling down, but not for pushing heavy weight up.
Amusedmonkey's post is interesting, that there actually is a reason, perhaps, for suspecting that lifting up is ill-advised.0 -
Found the study, and looks like I remembered some details wrong. It was a questionaire followed by various tests. Here is the abstract:
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2013/05000/Characteristics_of_Anterior_Shoulder_Instability.21.aspx
Apparently, strengthening the external rotators would help mitigate the instability.2 -
I'm 66 (one of those "older" people who aren't supposed to do them) but my 1RM for the OHP is 125# at 162# BW.
I have never hurt myself doing an OHP even after having had 2 rotator cuff surgeries and a broken clavicle.
The key is to lift w/proper form and to not try to lift so far beyond your capacity to do so that you cannot maintain your form w/o risking injury.
Do that and I wouldn't worry about injuring yourself regardless of what lift you are trying to do.
while that's true for you, the OPs buddy may already have an injury. i cannot lift any weight over my head, as per my doctor and PT, so not true of everyone.1 -
As someone with multiple shoulder injuries and years of pain, I have to agree about form being key. When I started StrongLifts, OHP hurt my shoulders a ton lifting 65 pounds. I watched some videos and really worked on form and now (7 months in) have no pain at 115. Same thing with bench --- so glad I watched videos and learned how to actually do the movement because the constant shoulder pain has gone away.2
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"itsbasschick wrote: »while that's true for you, the OPs buddy may already have an injury. i cannot lift any weight over my head, as per my doctor and PT, so not true of everyone.
Of course, my suggestion would not apply to anyone (like you or others) who has a chronic injury or limitation (like you and others) that prevents lifting anything overhead (by means OHP or otherwise).
But for me and others w/o such injuries or limitations, my suggestion (to lift w/proper form and w/in your capacity to lift more wt w/o breaking form in order to avoid injury) would still be applicable.
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GiddyupTim wrote: »I believe those PTs who advise against lifting above the shoulder say "no, not true." The shoulder is made for pulling down, but not for pushing heavy weight up.
Ask them how they get their luggage into the overhead compartment of airplanes.
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A study of human anatomy: If you don't use the muscles... ANY muscle group in the body... those muscles will begin to atrophy. They will weaken and lose their ability to do the very things they are supposed to do. This includes the trapezius muscles - those pesky sets of muscles in the shoulder, neck, and upper back.
Now, before I go further, I feel this is a good place to point out that muscles do only one thing. They work only one way. They pull. That means that all muscles come in pairs. Two sets of muscles - one to pull one way, another to pull the other way. You can tighten both sets of muscles in a pair at the same time but, in order to raise, lower, extend, or retract, you will only be using half of those muscles at a given time. This means that, while you may have a sore muscle in your shoulder or neck, it does not necessarily mean that both "halves" of this muscle set are injured or strained. In fact, quite the opposite. Usually, and barring some traumatic injury, it is just one part of the muscle set that is injured or sore.
Having said that, let me explain that muscles develop - they grow - from being 'injured'. When you strain your muscles beyond their 'normal' capacity, they develop tiny tears in the muscle tissue. Not unlike when you break a bone, they heal with extra tissue. This accounts for the growth you see in those massive biceps, quads, and traps on professional body builders. Most of us, while we may want to tighten up those muscle groups (as we trim down the "not muscle" groups), don't really aspire to the Incredible Hulk status. So... does that mean we don't need to do any muscle stressing exercise? NO! It does not. But, how do you work those muscle groups if you don't raise them above your shoulders? Well, you really can't fully exercise a muscle group without extending it to its full capacity. And that means moving them in all directions they are capable of moving.
But what about that injured shoulder? Do you want to be pushing that muscle set beyond its capability? Probably not. Give it a chance to heal from whatever injury you may have sustained. But should you just not work it at all. Nope. Unless it is a severe break or tear, you probably are going to want to work slowly toward rebuilding the tissue. So, here's where "doctor's orders" come in. Give an injury a chance to heal. Then, gradually begin working the injury, rebuilding the flexibility and strength you may have lost. And that includes moving that arm up and above the shoulder! Should you be lifting weight to that point? Sure! Should you be lifting the equivalent of your own body weight over your head? Unless your muscle mass is roughly equal to half your body weight... probably not. But any doctor who tells you not to "do those exercises where you lift your elbows above your shoulders"? I would first wonder about the general physical condition of the physical therapist or chiropractor; does s/he exercise/work out vigorously? Ever?
I might also be given to wonder if this medical professional was part of a 'group' practice. I have noticed that the quality of care tends to go down when the number of practitioners in the group goes up. The focus tends to shift from patient care to patient numbers. Practitioners start echoing an easy line of "care" responses rather than treating each patient individually.
Of course you need to be careful about HOW MUCH weight you are trying to lift. And the reasoning being that admonition is that practitioners have seen many, many rotator cuff injuries and, too often, attribute these injuries to lifting weight above the shoulder. The argument is only half right. Lifting weight above the shoulder, in and of itself, does not cause rotator cuff injuries. Lifting too much weight, or lifting incorrectly CAN cause those injuries and more. But not exercising your body to YOUR full capacity can do just as much harm.
The key here is --- restraint. Don't try to do too much or lift too much. Make sure you know what you are doing and that you are doing it correctly. (That means don't depend on your buddies and besties to tell you what to do and how to do it unless they are experienced and truly knowledgeable.)
OH! And age, for the most part, should never be a factor. It's all about YOUR body and YOUR fitness level, regardless of age.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Found the study, and looks like I remembered some details wrong. It was a questionaire followed by various tests. Here is the abstract:
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2013/05000/Characteristics_of_Anterior_Shoulder_Instability.21.aspx
Apparently, strengthening the external rotators would help mitigate the instability.
Well, I am sorry you wrong. But see? That is what I was thinking. It only makes sense. I don't see huge numbers of olympic lifters blowing out their shoulders. If they did, people would not do it.0 -
ReeseG4350 wrote: »OH! And age, for the most part, should never be a factor. It's all about YOUR body and YOUR fitness level, regardless of age.
Thank-you!
I'm SO tired of reading blanket statements in health/exercise articles that older folks "SHOULDN'T" do this or that BECAUSE of their age alone without regard to individual differences and abilities.
It's a symptom of age stereotyping and I'm tired of seeing it perpetuated in the literature.
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