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How do you know when you are doing enough?

sardelsa

I see this question arise quite often, particularly here in the gaining section. How do you know when you are lifting enough to create adequate muscle building? I know there should be progressive overload over time.. but I find that answer doesn't really satisfy. Is it hitting PRs? Increasing volume? How often should these things be happening? Or is it not something that can really be measured. Things like DOMS, feeling a burn or getting a pump, etc are frequently sought after but rarely are good indicators of muscle building.

I know I work hard. I run a full body program 3-4x per week with a focus on lower body. The way my program is written it is not meant to overload too much or I will be burnt out by the time my next workout day comes around. But sometimes in the back of my head the little (sometimes irrational) voice says "I am still able to walk... did I really go hard enough??"

But this being my second bulk I'd like to think I know what I am doing but for some of the newer bulkers, it is hard to trust the process and know what you are doing is working. I mean, you see measurements go up, your lifts increasing, but fat is going up as well, it is hard to tell.

Would love to hear some of your thoughts!

Replies

serapel

I have been chatting with a lot of women lifters and they all say that if you are lifting heavier stuff (i.e., getting stronger) from week to week, you are gaining muscle; if you ensure you eat 20% protein and eat about 250 cals over maintenance, you are going to build muscle.

I have been trying to grow muscle now for 5 months and if I had of known how hard it is to actually put on muscle, I never would have been afraid of lifting heavy weights.

ps...today I hip thrusted 200 lbs BOOYA...4 sets baby (of 6, 4, 5, 5)

trigden1991

Strength gain does not equal muscle gain. The only real way is DEXA scans or similar to measure body composition. A bit less reliable but a good indicator is that if your bicep measurement has gone up 0.5" but your waist has remained the same you could safely assume you've gained muscle.

Gallowmere1984

I honestly could never tell. I just went by how I felt in the gym. If I left feeling trashed, I'd wait until the next day and hit it again. If I felt great, I'd hit a two-a-day later in the evening. I was running a senseless surplus though (gained 2.5 lbs./week) so I was usually so loaded with energy that I didn't want to leave at all.

SideSteel

So first of all it is true that strength gains and muscle gains are not necessarily the same. One component of force production involves the rate at which signals are sent to cause muscles to fire, basically.

However, I would be willing to bet that over the long term, if someone were consuming a reasonable number of calories such that they were slowly adding mass to their body and a reasonable number of grams of protein, and they were continuously seeing improvements in training performance on a program that isn't completely stupid, I would be comfortable making the claim that they are gaining muscle.

As far as the program comments go, it might be possible to have someone do extremely low (weekly) volume training and gain strength without any muscle gains, but I don't think this is likely in many cases since very few people train that way.

Coachjr29

I found better gains in strength and muscle growth when I gave myself 2 days of rest between muscle groups. For example mon/Thur: legs and tue/fri: upper. When I was younger I did an every other day rotation so I did each group 3x a week with one day rest in between. I plateaued on strength and even lost weight all the while eating more.

sardelsa

SideSteel wrote: »

So first of all it is true that strength gains and muscle gains are not necessarily the same. One component of force production involves the rate at which signals are sent to cause muscles to fire, basically.

However, I would be willing to bet that over the long term, if someone were consuming a reasonable number of calories such that they were slowly adding mass to their body and a reasonable number of grams of protein, and they were continuously seeing improvements in training performance on a program that isn't completely stupid, I would be comfortable making the claim that they are gaining muscle.

As far as the program comments go, it might be possible to have someone do extremely low (weekly) volume training and gain strength without any muscle gains, but I don't think this is likely in many cases since very few people train that way.

Awesome. Thank you @SideSteel This is pretty much in line with what I have learned and experienced. Good to know you don't have to annihilate the muscles constantly to see progress.

Coachjr29 wrote: »

I found better gains in strength and muscle growth when I gave myself 2 days of rest between muscle groups. For example mon/Thur: legs and tue/fri: upper. When I was younger I did an every other day rotation so I did each group 3x a week with one day rest in between. I plateaued on strength and even lost weight all the while eating more.

I think this is very common right, and why bodybuilders eventually move from full body to some type of split program.

Coachjr29

Many power lifters follow the same template for a split program. I know Westside Barbell splits their program into a dynamic day and max effort day to build power and strength simultaneously.

AnvilHead

Pretty good discussion of the question here: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/am-i-doing-enough/

sardelsa

AnvilHead wrote: »

Pretty good discussion of the question here: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/am-i-doing-enough/

Wow thank you @AnvilHead this is fantastic. He makes some really good points. Good read

socially_awkward_and_hungry

Great thread. I'm constantly worried I will just get fat on a bulk because I find gaining muscle so hard! I lift as heavy as I can keeping good form for reps between 8-10 mostly and some drop sets. I'm pretty sure I'm working as hard as I can safely without a spotter, I couldn't go heavier without upsetting my form anyway and i try to increase the weight or reps each week....its food I find difficult. I hate eating in the morning but have been trying to force it down and time is pretty lacking so I'm not always able to sit and eat but have been trying to use shakes to keep up the calories. In the past I would bail on a bulk when I thought I was getting fat but I'm pretty sure if id have stuck it out then, id be alot bigger now...ive got to keep my head focused or I freak out!

Chieflrg

If you are gaining weight and getting stronger weekly, more than likely your are gaining muscle.

If you work the sh1t out of a program with sufficient volume while eating enough food & recovering with proper rest you are the safe side to gain muscle.

hansonmedical2

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

AnvilHead

hansonmedical2 wrote: »

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

That's why it's useful to take progress pics. Muscle gain is a very slow, gradual process and because we see ourselves in the mirror everyday, we often don't notice the progress. Make the photos as identical as possible (clothing, lighting, positioning, etc.). If you look at a picture from today and a picture from six months ago, you should see a significant change in the direction of your intended goal. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

Ideally (whether bulking or cutting):
- Track your weight (use a trend app such as Happy Scale (iOS), Libra (Android) or Trendweight (web)).
- Take periodic body measurements (i.e., neck, chest, biceps, forearms, wrist, waist, hips, thighs, calves).
- Take progress pics.
- Periodically check your bodyfat (using the most accurate method possible given your resources).
- Log your workouts so you can monitor progress in weight/reps.

psuLemon

AnvilHead wrote: »

hansonmedical2 wrote: »

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

That's why it's useful to take progress pics. Muscle gain is a very slow, gradual process and because we see ourselves in the mirror everyday, we often don't notice the progress. Make the photos as identical as possible (clothing, lighting, positioning, etc.). If you look at a picture from today and a picture from six months ago, you should see a significant change in the direction of your intended goal. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

Ideally (whether bulking or cutting):
- Track your weight (use a trend app such as Happy Scale (iOS), Libra (Android) or Trendweight (web)).
- Take periodic body measurements (i.e., neck, chest, biceps, forearms, wrist, waist, hips, thighs, calves).
- Take progress pics.
- Periodically check your bodyfat (using the most accurate method possible given your resources).
- Log your workouts so you can monitor progress in weight/reps.

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

serapel

psuLemon wrote: »

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

Thank YOU!!! This is such good advice for us all.

Progress is progress

sardelsa

psuLemon wrote: »

AnvilHead wrote: »

hansonmedical2 wrote: »

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

That's why it's useful to take progress pics. Muscle gain is a very slow, gradual process and because we see ourselves in the mirror everyday, we often don't notice the progress. Make the photos as identical as possible (clothing, lighting, positioning, etc.). If you look at a picture from today and a picture from six months ago, you should see a significant change in the direction of your intended goal. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

Ideally (whether bulking or cutting):
- Track your weight (use a trend app such as Happy Scale (iOS), Libra (Android) or Trendweight (web)).
- Take periodic body measurements (i.e., neck, chest, biceps, forearms, wrist, waist, hips, thighs, calves).
- Take progress pics.
- Periodically check your bodyfat (using the most accurate method possible given your resources).
- Log your workouts so you can monitor progress in weight/reps.

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

True. But when you are bulking how your body is looking can change due to fat gains, that is why it can be hard to gauge using the mirror alone and then sometimes you doubt the process altogether.

I remember after my first bulk, oh man, I hated how fluffy I looked, and often wondered if there was really any muscle under there (surprise, there was).

serapel

sardelsa wrote: »

I remember after my first bulk, oh man, I hated how fluffy I looked, and often wondered if there was really any muscle under there (surprise, there was).

yeah that would be difficult.

cnbbnc

sardelsa wrote:

psuLemon wrote:

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

True. But when you are bulking how your body is looking can change due to fat gains, that is why it can be hard to gauge using the mirror alone and then sometimes you doubt the process altogether.

Yup. I think it does matter more for the women because it's generally harder for us. If a guy simply eats and lifts he's pretty much guaranteed to see some result. For me...I'm looking at this is a quest of sorts just to see if I can manage to walk away with something. Anything! LOL! And it is hard when you have the fat layer going on and have no freakin clue what's going on underneath it.... It's a leap of faith...this bulking thing.

At the end of the day, looking good is what it's all about though, so psuLemon does make a good point.

psuLemon

sardelsa wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

AnvilHead wrote: »

hansonmedical2 wrote: »

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

That's why it's useful to take progress pics. Muscle gain is a very slow, gradual process and because we see ourselves in the mirror everyday, we often don't notice the progress. Make the photos as identical as possible (clothing, lighting, positioning, etc.). If you look at a picture from today and a picture from six months ago, you should see a significant change in the direction of your intended goal. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

Ideally (whether bulking or cutting):
- Track your weight (use a trend app such as Happy Scale (iOS), Libra (Android) or Trendweight (web)).
- Take periodic body measurements (i.e., neck, chest, biceps, forearms, wrist, waist, hips, thighs, calves).
- Take progress pics.
- Periodically check your bodyfat (using the most accurate method possible given your resources).
- Log your workouts so you can monitor progress in weight/reps.

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

True. But when you are bulking how your body is looking can change due to fat gains, that is why it can be hard to gauge using the mirror alone and then sometimes you doubt the process altogether.

I remember after my first bulk, oh man, I hated how fluffy I looked, and often wondered if there was really any muscle under there (surprise, there was).

It's definitely a valid point. Bulking is more about trusting the process and dealing with the mental battles.

serapel

not how you feel...it's how you look ... haha

Gallowmere1984

psuLemon wrote: »

sardelsa wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

AnvilHead wrote: »

hansonmedical2 wrote: »

I've often wondered thr same thing before. If you're doing everything that you're "supposed" to be doing to gain muscle, then you probably are if you feel stronger in the gym and your performance is higher then your expectations originally were. It's hard to tell though when we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday. Acquaintances will tell you that you're looking leaner, or more muscular sometimes (at least with my experience in the past 7 months of lifting).

That's why it's useful to take progress pics. Muscle gain is a very slow, gradual process and because we see ourselves in the mirror everyday, we often don't notice the progress. Make the photos as identical as possible (clothing, lighting, positioning, etc.). If you look at a picture from today and a picture from six months ago, you should see a significant change in the direction of your intended goal. If you don't, you're doing something wrong.

Ideally (whether bulking or cutting):
- Track your weight (use a trend app such as Happy Scale (iOS), Libra (Android) or Trendweight (web)).
- Take periodic body measurements (i.e., neck, chest, biceps, forearms, wrist, waist, hips, thighs, calves).
- Take progress pics.
- Periodically check your bodyfat (using the most accurate method possible given your resources).
- Log your workouts so you can monitor progress in weight/reps.

I would also add, if you are getting stronger and liking how your body is developing, does it really matter if you are gaining a little muscle or not?

True. But when you are bulking how your body is looking can change due to fat gains, that is why it can be hard to gauge using the mirror alone and then sometimes you doubt the process altogether.

I remember after my first bulk, oh man, I hated how fluffy I looked, and often wondered if there was really any muscle under there (surprise, there was).

It's definitely a valid point. Bulking is more about trusting the process and dealing with the mental battles.

Whenever I need inspiration in that point, I look at the side-by-side pics of Lee Priest in "eat all the things" mode, and in contest shape. Granted, I don't have his PED regimen, but my god it's ridiculous.

HamsterManV2

How do you know when you are doing enough?

When Bulking, my lifts are going up, and my weight is going up slowly.
When cutting, I am losing inches and my weight is going down, while maintaining lifts (or slowly lowering them). Belts don't lie, they tell me when I need to tighten or loosen them.

Remember, soreness is NOT an indicator of progress. There is a difference between training and exercise - training is to reach a goal (i.e. increase squat/bench/deadlift by X lbs in this timeframe, run a mile in X time, etc.), exercise is just being sweaty and tired. Choose a program to suit your goals.

If you feel you are not working hard enough, add some HIIT at the end of your training (i.e. 500m rows as fast as possible, rest 2 min, repeat. Or the Magic50). In under 15 minutes, you can get REALLY gassed.

trigden1991

HamsterManV2 wrote: »

How do you know when you are doing enough?

When Bulking, my lifts are going up, and my weight is going up slowly.
When cutting, I am losing inches and my weight is going down, while maintaining lifts (or slowly lowering them). Belts don't lie, they tell me when I need to tighten or loosen them.

Remember, soreness is NOT an indicator of progress. There is a difference between training and exercise - training is to reach a goal (i.e. increase squat/bench/deadlift by X lbs in this timeframe, run a mile in X time, etc.), exercise is just being sweaty and tired. Choose a program to suit your goals.

If you feel you are not working hard enough, add some HIIT at the end of your training (i.e. 500m rows as fast as possible, rest 2 min, repeat. Or the Magic50). In under 15 minutes, you can get REALLY gassed.

Why would you add HIIT to a bulking programme if you don't think you are progressing?

peaceout_aly

Great read! Thanks for posting this, got a lot of information from this thread. I always correlated strength with muscle gain, a.k.a lifting heavier weights = more muscle bulk, which kinda messed with my mentality about bulking because I want to stick with 15 lb. dumbbells for my arm circuit so if I'm doing the same arm work out (increasing reps if anything) and eating a surplus, but still increasing strength in all other body parts (back, legs, etc.) then I wonder if I'm not actually going hard enough.

I do the same as you with the whole, "Well I can still move so should I have worked out harder?" mentality. It's my first bulk so I'm sure by next year I'll lose that slightly but right now it's hard.

AnvilHead

peaceout_aly wrote: »

Great read! Thanks for posting this, got a lot of information from this thread. I always correlated strength with muscle gain, a.k.a lifting heavier weights = more muscle bulk, which kinda messed with my mentality about bulking because I want to stick with 15 lb. dumbbells for my arm circuit so if I'm doing the same arm work out (increasing reps if anything) and eating a surplus, but still increasing strength in all other body parts (back, legs, etc.) then I wonder if I'm not actually going hard enough.

I do the same as you with the whole, "Well I can still move so should I have worked out harder?" mentality. It's my first bulk so I'm sure by next year I'll lose that slightly but right now it's hard.

Working out until you can't move can actually be counterproductive to your goals. Recovery is an important part of muscle/strength gain and constantly pushing that hard negatively impacts your recovery. If you're not recovering adequately between workouts, you're digging an ever-deepening hole which will be increasingly difficult to crawl out of. That's why well-designed routines are periodized in some way and have deloads built in.

Think of it like a credit card - you spend $500 on it one month (exercise/fatigue), then make a $20 payment (recovery). You spend another $500 the next month, and make a $20 payment. Do that over the course of a year and you're $5760 in the hole ($6000 spent (exercise/fatigue) - $240 paid back (recovery)). At some point you're going to have to drastically cut back on the spending (exercise) and start making big payments (recovery) to get back to a zero balance (CNS/systemic fatigue).

ndj1979

tagging to follow

sardelsa

AnvilHead wrote: »

peaceout_aly wrote: »

Great read! Thanks for posting this, got a lot of information from this thread. I always correlated strength with muscle gain, a.k.a lifting heavier weights = more muscle bulk, which kinda messed with my mentality about bulking because I want to stick with 15 lb. dumbbells for my arm circuit so if I'm doing the same arm work out (increasing reps if anything) and eating a surplus, but still increasing strength in all other body parts (back, legs, etc.) then I wonder if I'm not actually going hard enough.

I do the same as you with the whole, "Well I can still move so should I have worked out harder?" mentality. It's my first bulk so I'm sure by next year I'll lose that slightly but right now it's hard.

Working out until you can't move can actually be counterproductive to your goals. Recovery is an important part of muscle/strength gain and constantly pushing that hard negatively impacts your recovery. If you're not recovering adequately between workouts, you're digging an ever-deepening hole which will be increasingly difficult to crawl out of. That's why well-designed routines are periodized in some way and have deloads built in.

Think of it like a credit card - you spend $500 on it one month (exercise/fatigue), then make a $20 payment (recovery). You spend another $500 the next month, and make a $20 payment. Do that over the course of a year and you're $5760 in the hole ($6000 spent (exercise/fatigue) - $240 paid back (recovery)). At some point you're going to have to drastically cut back on the spending (exercise) and start making big payments (recovery) to get back to a zero balance (CNS/systemic fatigue).

Oh I agree with you 100%, but despite knowing that, the irrational voice "more is better" still creeps in from time to time especially when bulking, especially being a woman. On top of that because of my programming (I am only lifting 3x per week for 45min-1h) you can start to doubt what you are doing, especially when you see others in the fitness world going insanely hard 6x per week. Sometimes I will see someone on IG doing an exercise or variation and think "Oh shoot I should try that, have I been missing out on the gains this whole time because I've been leaving that out?" honestly I will admit that it is the silliest thought.. I really need to trust what I am doing and keep my eyes on my own progress. I am super guilty of the irrational thinking for sure.

richardgavel

One of the reasons I trust Stronglifts is because it's all compound movements. No isolation exercises, so I'm not going to be tempted by the "add another exercise" idea. I trust it because it's a well known plan (I.e. I didn't come up with it myself haphazardly) and well recommended plan. Plus being an engineer, I trust the objective view of progress: increase weight after successful 5x5.

psuLemon

sardelsa wrote: »

AnvilHead wrote: »

peaceout_aly wrote: »

Great read! Thanks for posting this, got a lot of information from this thread. I always correlated strength with muscle gain, a.k.a lifting heavier weights = more muscle bulk, which kinda messed with my mentality about bulking because I want to stick with 15 lb. dumbbells for my arm circuit so if I'm doing the same arm work out (increasing reps if anything) and eating a surplus, but still increasing strength in all other body parts (back, legs, etc.) then I wonder if I'm not actually going hard enough.

I do the same as you with the whole, "Well I can still move so should I have worked out harder?" mentality. It's my first bulk so I'm sure by next year I'll lose that slightly but right now it's hard.

Working out until you can't move can actually be counterproductive to your goals. Recovery is an important part of muscle/strength gain and constantly pushing that hard negatively impacts your recovery. If you're not recovering adequately between workouts, you're digging an ever-deepening hole which will be increasingly difficult to crawl out of. That's why well-designed routines are periodized in some way and have deloads built in.

Think of it like a credit card - you spend $500 on it one month (exercise/fatigue), then make a $20 payment (recovery). You spend another $500 the next month, and make a $20 payment. Do that over the course of a year and you're $5760 in the hole ($6000 spent (exercise/fatigue) - $240 paid back (recovery)). At some point you're going to have to drastically cut back on the spending (exercise) and start making big payments (recovery) to get back to a zero balance (CNS/systemic fatigue).

Oh I agree with you 100%, but despite knowing that, the irrational voice "more is better" still creeps in from time to time especially when bulking, especially being a woman. On top of that because of my programming (I am only lifting 3x per week for 45min-1h) you can start to doubt what you are doing, especially when you see others in the fitness world going insanely hard 6x per week. Sometimes I will see someone on IG doing an exercise or variation and think "Oh shoot I should try that, have I been missing out on the gains this whole time because I've been leaving that out?" honestly I will admit that it is the silliest thought.. I really need to trust what I am doing and keep my eyes on my own progress. I am super guilty of the irrational thinking for sure.

I feel you, but keep reminding yourself there are lot of people following ineffective routines and often they have been working for years to get to the point they are. I see them all the time in my gym, especially with younger males. I mean FFS... wrist curls... who does that? You want stronger wrist and forearms, just pick up heavy *kitten*.

Sorry to for angry tangent.

I have developed several spreadsheets around the programs I am following (yes, I am an excel nerd) which looks at total volume, percentages of increase and currently I working on plotter charts to look at weekly, monthly (Doing Wendler so month = 1 cycle) and annual increases. By doing this, it has helped me visually see the progress, which allows me to stop over thinking this. If I plateau at some point, I will modify a variable to further increase volume.

leajas1

Great post, thank you! I'm going to take all this uncertainty and excitement and use it to fire my cut when the time comes (especially in times of hunger). Think of how exciting it's going to be to cut the fat and see what's underneath!