Not all calories are equal
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »
What do you think happens?
I'm not sure I understand your question, can you please elaborate?
In regards to food. If one gets adequate nutrients and can fit "junk" food into their diet, what do you think happens?
Oh ok. Thanks for clarifying.
Short answer - I honestly can't know for sure what happens or doesn't happen in regards to this.
Longer answer - I tend to think that man isn't very good at outsmarting nature. So I tend to prefer foods that have been "less interfered with" by man. As a general (but not absolute) rule, I think that the more a food has been interfered with by man, the more its composition is out of line with what our bodies expect. And I think health (in many roundabout and complex ways) often reflects what our bodies biologically expect with what our bodies actually get. So yeah, I think nature is a bit smarter than us, in that reducing health to calories and nutritional content of a food may be too simplistic, and that many other x factors could come into play when it comes to overall health. Can I prove that junk food will deteriorate health (independent of calories and nutritional status)? Probably not. It's just my opinion, so I behave and express accordingly. But can another person prove that junk food does not deteriorate health and is just "health neutral" at worst? Probably not. But they have an opinion too. And I respect that. If there was conclusive evidence either way, everybody would be doing the same thing and forums like this wouldn't exist. So, to summarize this long answer, I don't know what happens if junk food is included in the diet, maybe bad health things, maybe ridiculously awesome health things, but personally I find that I can live without junk food and still enjoy food tremendously, so I stick with whole foods because I think they are a safer bet. Now, I know the next question naturally is "what is the definition of junk food", and of course that will vary with everybody, which I hope is recognized.
I'm hoping that this difference in opinion remains just that, because that's the best way to treat things when people say things differently. J72FIT, I appreciate the fact that you started a conversation with a question. I think that is very respectful. I think the conversations start deteriorating rapidly when the following things happen:
- People approach the issue from an "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude.
- Emotional connotations creep into the subject matter.
I'm struggling with your position of the body "expecting" things since as a species, we're evolutionarily adaptable.
Except my argument is that for evolution to take place, you don't just need people, environment and the passage of time.
You need strong selection pressure. The biggest selection pressures over 2.5 million years were starvation and predator danger. You had to be damn proficient at being badass to survive to reproductive age. Surviving to reproductive age was all that was required, but that was a ridiculously hard task. You had to be among the best.
10 thousand years ago, when we developed agriculture, we had a food supply that we could now sustain in one place, and we had shelter and permanenent community. Thereby, eliminating the two strongest selection pressures that drove evolution.
Sure, if junk food was around and there was selection pressure to evolve, I'm sure we would have.
Today, there is no evolutionary penalty for any lifestyle behaviours b/c all of us can evolve to reproductive age - we won't starve and no lion will bite off our heads.
So yeah, aside from a few instances of random genetic drift (eg. Tay Sachs disease etc) that have occurred since the advent of civilization, we're genetically identical to 10 thousand years ago. But we would NOT be if selection pressures were maintained over the last 10 thousand years.
So yes, if we were all still in the wild and had to fend for ourselves and the ground started growing white castle burgers and crispy creme donuts, it is possible that we could have evolved to thrive on those, circumstances dictating.1 -
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how an environment emulating very strong selection pressure equates to optimal health.
It's an interesting theory you have there, but you're ignoring changing environment.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm sorry, but I fail to see how an environment emulating very strong selection pressure equates to optimal health.
It's an interesting theory you have there, but you're ignoring changing environment.
That's because there is no environment emulating very strong selection pressure. the point of there not being any strong selection pressure is to state that we haven't evolved since 10 thousand years ago. selection pressure is needed for evolution.
I never suggest creating an environment with strong selection pressure, that would be brutal. I'm not looking for more evolution, but health, which existed while we were still evolving. It's HEALTH that allows one to survive tough times. I don't want tough times. I want the health. The rationale is to give myself what my genes expected during tough times. Minus the lions and the 600 foot fall from a cliff and the band of cannibals on my trail.0 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »Not looking for an exact answer to this because none of us can truly address this with certainty (at least I can't pretend to)- but I do wonder why obesity was much rarer in the times when we had no idea what a calorie was.
Seriously? I mean, have you been in a Walmart lately? Or even just a plain ol grocery store? There is 100 times more pure CRAP on the shelves than when I was a teenager. It's really insane. And fast foods are EVERYWHERE. You see people shoveling food into their mouths as they are driving...all the time. That's a relatively recent thing.
Portion sizes in restaurants are ridiculous. Buffets are everywhere. Sugary drinks and snacks are all over the media, and people spend more time on front of the tv than ever before. Kids are spending way more time interacting with screens on televisions, computers, cellphones than they are playing outside, riding bikes and being active.
Pretty much a no-brainer.1 -
fitmom4lifemfp wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »Not looking for an exact answer to this because none of us can truly address this with certainty (at least I can't pretend to)- but I do wonder why obesity was much rarer in the times when we had no idea what a calorie was.
Seriously? I mean, have you been in a Walmart lately? Or even just a plain ol grocery store? There is 100 times more pure CRAP on the shelves than when I was a teenager. It's really insane. And fast foods are EVERYWHERE. You see people shoveling food into their mouths as they are driving...all the time. That's a relatively recent thing.
Portion sizes in restaurants are ridiculous. Buffets are everywhere. Sugary drinks and snacks are all over the media, and people spend more time on front of the tv than ever before. Kids are spending way more time interacting with screens on televisions, computers, cellphones than they are playing outside, riding bikes and being active.
Pretty much a no-brainer.
Yeah, I don't deny portion sizes. But I think of it in other ways. If somebody asked me for extra helpings of that big fatty steak I just ate, or that big bowl of blueberries, or that plate of sweet potatoes, or that kale fried in bacon fat, or that bacon or that juicy duck leg.... I'd say, no way. I'm freaking full!!!!!!!
Try stuffing your face with whole foods. It just gets too damn uncomfortable, at least for me. Now, I'm not saying that people can't gain weight on whole foods, they can!!! But eating whole foods FOR ME... I find that I can't overeat without wanting to barf. But back when I ate cake, pizza etc, I'd eat the whole damn thing abd be hungry for more!
Again, maybe that's just me.1 -
I haven't read all the replies on here but back to OP's claim: I have lost 50 pounds since I started measuring my International Delight. I'm sure that's why I was fat. If I had substituted cream and chocolate syrup I wouldn't have had to be here.
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geneticexpectations wrote: »fitmom4lifemfp wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »Not looking for an exact answer to this because none of us can truly address this with certainty (at least I can't pretend to)- but I do wonder why obesity was much rarer in the times when we had no idea what a calorie was.
Seriously? I mean, have you been in a Walmart lately? Or even just a plain ol grocery store? There is 100 times more pure CRAP on the shelves than when I was a teenager. It's really insane. And fast foods are EVERYWHERE. You see people shoveling food into their mouths as they are driving...all the time. That's a relatively recent thing.
Portion sizes in restaurants are ridiculous. Buffets are everywhere. Sugary drinks and snacks are all over the media, and people spend more time on front of the tv than ever before. Kids are spending way more time interacting with screens on televisions, computers, cellphones than they are playing outside, riding bikes and being active.
Pretty much a no-brainer.
Yeah, I don't deny portion sizes. But I think of it in other ways. If somebody asked me for extra helpings of that big fatty steak I just ate, or that big bowl of blueberries, or that plate of sweet potatoes, or that kale fried in bacon fat, or that bacon or that juicy duck leg.... I'd say, no way. I'm freaking full!!!!!!!
I went to a steakhouse recently, and everyone I was with ate the crazy portions that were provided, so this idea that one can't overeat steak is odd to me.
I've also seen people eat quite large portions of sweet potatoes and potatoes -- and adding more fat tends to make that more likely, IME. Our Thanksgiving fare is reasonably healthy, and the ways in which one could claim it is unhealthy is excess fat, and yet I saw people overeat like crazy with no problem then too (and not that there's anything wrong with that).
I'm extremely skeptical about the idea that eating whole foods + fat (and I'm not sure how processed bacon is really a whole food anyway) = can't overeat. IMO, obesity results from environment and habits.
But then, as I keep saying, I and many others here (hi, GottaBurn!) gained weight eating mostly whole foods. Maybe you didn't -- maybe starting to eat whole foods is a new thing for you, but it was not for me, so I know that's not sufficient. It's helpful, sure, since if I eat mostly whole foods it's less likely I will have foods around to overeat, especially at work where I tend to be most tempted.
Oh, and I never ate cake much. It seems a weird thing to be a major factor in overeating, since baking a cake is a pain and I guess I wasn't offered it that regularly. Even when fat it was a rare and event-related thing. I don't go to bakeries and buy things often either, and while I guess some buy cake at the grocery store that has never crossed my mind and I don't really think it would be great cake. YMMV and all that.
Pizza made at home to me is no different from other foods I'd make at home and not even particularly high cal (I always add lots of vegetables). Pizza in an Italian place (I enjoy lots of local places that serve pizza) is going to be higher cal, like any restaurant food, but again I'm not sure how it's different in kind from some other restaurant entree I might order -- even something like steak or trout are likely going to be prepared in a way much more calorie than I would at home and be a larger serving size. Last restaurant I went to I had steelhead, baby kale, and quinoa (it was in Seattle) and I still bet the calorie count wasn't pretty. The steakhouse (which involved mashed sweet potatoes, creamed spinach, and fried green tomatoes -- this was in Mississippi), also I am sure was every bit as caloric as an order of pizza at the places I usually get it.
Solution: realize that restaurant food is high cal and either eat only a portion of it or budget it into the week. I normally don't get all the stuff I did in MS, for example, but did this time because I wanted to be able to eat with the others and so prepared in advance.2 -
To a degree, I am starting to come to the way of thinking that not all calories are the same, particularly when it comes to maintaining/body shape. Now hear me out, yes stay under deficit and it's all good which is what I care about BUT I have noticed that my face/stomach can get puffy depending on what I eat while other times I look what I consider 'nice and trim'. I still make sure my sodium and sugar 95% fit under my target (post work out) but still I notice that when I wake up my face can look a bit 'fatter' which can be quite upsetting0
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What you eat may well affect water retention, which is what I think you are talking about, but that has nothing to do with calories, let alone some calories being different from other calories.6
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geneticexpectations wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm sorry, but I fail to see how an environment emulating very strong selection pressure equates to optimal health.
It's an interesting theory you have there, but you're ignoring changing environment.
That's because there is no environment emulating very strong selection pressure. the point of there not being any strong selection pressure is to state that we haven't evolved since 10 thousand years ago. selection pressure is needed for evolution.
I never suggest creating an environment with strong selection pressure, that would be brutal. I'm not looking for more evolution, but health, which existed while we were still evolving. It's HEALTH that allows one to survive tough times. I don't want tough times. I want the health. The rationale is to give myself what my genes expected during tough times. Minus the lions and the 600 foot fall from a cliff and the band of cannibals on my trail.
But we're still evolving, though.
See: Disease resistance, milk tolerance, blue eyes, loss of wisdom teeth1
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