Help me understand 5x5 vs 3x10

schmidty13

Ok. So I understand that different rep ranges are geared toward different objectives, such as strength, endurance, and hypertrophy. What I am curious about is why 5x5 programs like Stronglifts and Starting Strength are preferred by many over a 3x10 program, specifically while at a small calorie deficit. Is it due to the fact that 3x10, being more hypertrophy based, is less productive than a strength oriented program on account of the body not being able to acheive actual muscle growth while in caloric deficit? Or is there something more I am missing?

Shes1CraftyMama

I have read in many places that 5x5 is more for strength while 3x10 is more for size/hypertrophy. I think a lot of people like 5x5 because they see the constant strength gains. It also seems easier to do 5 reps than 10 in a set... ??? I think it would be best to try a few weeks on both and notice how you feel/look. Different people react differently to each! GOOD LUCK

Imsprod1

I've been a gym rat all my life and 5X5 is usually used for an increase in strength or power. It just depends on your goals! I like to go with 4x8 and then a 5 set at a lower weight to failure to fully tax the muscle. The best answer for most people is usually not one or the other but alternating between the two.

GODfidence

Go heavy. Low reps, high weight.
Tax your muscles and break them down,
Higher reps are more cardio than strength training,IMO.

schmidty13

Not trying to answer the what is best question, trying to understand why people don't advocate 8-12 rep programs while lifting on a caloric deficit. Basically trying to confirm my hypothesis that, since you can't gain muscle mass without a calorie surplus, then lifting in the hypertrophy range at deficit is not efficient.

AverageUkDude

I do a lot of my lifting 5x5 put four inches on my chest, 2 on my arms in the last 8 months but I have also been eating slightly over tdee.

There are hundreds of arguments on YouTube regarding the hypertophy rep range.

mryak750

bump....I mix both in each workout...most taxing exercise to start 3x5, second around the same, last few exercises going to failure or up to 10-12 reps...

schmidty13

I do a lot of my lifting 5x5 put four inches on my chest, 2 on my arms in the last 8 months but I have also been eating slightly over tdee.

There are hundreds of arguments on YouTube regarding the hypertophy rep range.

This is why I get confused. I hear plenty of stories like yours that show 5x5 will put on mass with a surplus, but I never see anything about what specifically happens with 3x10 in a deficit. And kudos, those are good gains in 8 months.

Hendrix7

In a calorie deficit your are tying to, at minimum, maintain strength [and therefore muscle mass]. This is easier to achieve on a 5x5 system as the loads are heavier.

Beginners [most people on MFP which is also why you see it recommended so much] will, generally, progress faster on a 5x5 system as again the loads are heavier and you can progressively overload muscles faster than you could in the 10 rep range.

This is not to say of course you cannot get bigger or stronger only in the 10-12 rep range of course you can but the gains will be slower and eventually you stall out quicker.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

"Strength" programs have been shown to be best at preserving muscle while on a deficit, which is the point.

mudmonkeyonwheels

Bump!

Really interested in this. My PT has me doing 3x10 and I seem to be making good strength progress. The one exercise I do 3X5 I have not made much improvement on at all.

schmidty13

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

"Strength" programs have been shown to be best at preserving muscle while on a deficit, which is the point.

Great info, thanks for the link. To take the conversation further, would the sentiment then be that "hypertrophy" programs are then best at building muscle mass during a surplus? For example, 5x5 during a cut and then switch to 3x10 during a bulk? These are not my specific goals, just trying to satisfy a personal curiosity about how these things all work.

chrisdavey

yes, you will get better hypertrophy results with a 3x10 setup than 5x5. It is more optimal.

5 rep sets are predominantly strength with a small amount of hypertrophy.
10 rep sets are the opposite.

I prefer beginners use 8-10 rep ranges mainly because they can get more practice on the movements at lighter loads and beginners don't actually need to work at such high intensity levels to retain LBM. (In saying that, I do prefer 5 reps for deadlifts for beginners after they have reached a "decent" level of strength)

In the end, as a beginner the rep ranges are secondary to actually doing the exercise Beginners can make progress on even worst programs :laugh: It may not be the most efficient way to reach their goals though.

gfroniewski

Isn't this an endless argument? 3x8, 3x10, 5x5 will all be good as long as you are pushing yourself with proper form. For me it all comes down to two words: progressive overload.

I forgot to state that I am a novice lifter (<1 year hard lifting). This is just an FYI for perspective purposes.

DavPul

Partly it's because in a deficit hypertrophy will be minimal. Partly it's because the lifting advice on this site is heavily powerlifting oriented. 3x10 is considered cardio around these parts.

EDollah

My goal is pretty simple, to lose a lot of fat fairly quickly, but not too quickly.

I don't care to get strong, I don't care to get swole. I'm a middle aged corporate dude trying to get in better health. I just want to lose fat.

I say all that for perspective. With that out of the way...

I do 3x8s. I lift weights for the sole objective of not losing muscle. In the 3+ months I've been lifting, 3x8s have worked just fine, as I've lost no more than a pound of muscle along the way. How do I know? I take body fat measurements every week. Would 5x5s make me stronger? Maybe, I don't care though.

As said upthread, all that matters is progressive overload. At least that's been the case for me.

mustgetmuscles1

The old argument 3x10, 5x5 or 10x3.

It should come down to what your goals are. A 3x10 program will be enough stimulation for most people to retain on a deficit or grow in a surplus BUT so will a 5x5. The difference for the vast majority of us will not be noticeable. Not everyone wants to be a power lifter and not everyone wants to be a body builder but fast strength gains will happen in either program (for beginners). That is why most people recommend the 5x5. It is kind of the best of everything. Especially for the beginner.

The closer the weight is to your 1rm the more muscle fiber activation. So if your goal is pure strength gains you may want a program that focuses on that. The myth is that you cannot get bigger on one of these programs. Some very large lifters would probably argue with you about that. Say a power lifter does a set a 8x3 and is tapped out. On the last set he is only able to get 2 reps. He was using damn near 100% muscle fiber activation on every rep. Next workout he is able to get all 3 on the last set. He cant engage any more than 100% muscle fibers so where did the extra strength come from? Hypertrophy.

Shes1CraftyMama

l lift in the 8-12 rep range and I was eating at a caloric deficit. I was always starving on lift days and at times felt tired and weak. So, I upped to 10% below TDEE and I dropped fat and got stronger and was not tired or hungry. My output in the gym has been awesome. But I am still at at 10% deficit!! So, it can be done! But in my experience I am fatigued and not gaining strength as quickly without the extra cals! hope this helps

soysauce6626

When I was in my contest prep I had a week for hypertrophy rep scheme. Then the next week an 5x5 rep scheme. Then repeated that cycle. It seemed that it worked really well for me. I kept majority of my strength and size then my previous cuts. What was surprising my deadlifts numbers kept increasing throughout my 5 1/2 months of my diet.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html

"Strength" programs have been shown to be best at preserving muscle while on a deficit, which is the point.

Great info, thanks for the link. To take the conversation further, would the sentiment then be that "hypertrophy" programs are then best at building muscle mass during a surplus? For example, 5x5 during a cut and then switch to 3x10 during a bulk? These are not my specific goals, just trying to satisfy a personal curiosity about how these things all work.

Depends on your goals. Do you wanna do a "bodybuilder" bulk or a power lifter bulk? If you want to go for strength then yeah keep going with 5x5 or something even more advanced (that's really a beginner program). If you want to do a body builder type bulk 3x10 might not be enough "volume".

A bulking program from the same author:
http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

LaurenAOK

Great topic, bump to read information.

chrisdavey

Do you wanna do a "bodybuilder" bulk or a power lifter bulk?

I don't understand what you are saying here?

BusyRaeNOTBusty

Do you wanna do a "bodybuilder" bulk or a power lifter bulk?

I don't understand what you are saying here?

Do you want to train for aesthetics or strength? I know you can do both but I think you need some kind of direction to really pick a program.

Joehenny

Idk I just mix in a day of hypertrophy and a day of strength training per cycle in my routine.

PikaKnight

1-5 reps - Strength/Power
5-8 reps Strength & some Hypertrophy
8-13 reps - Hypertrophy
13+ reps- Endurance

LiftAllThePizzas

Much of 'strength' is CNS adaptations. While you might not grow bigger muscles in a deficit, you can gain strength while in a deficit.

LiftAllThePizzas

As said upthread, all that matters is progressive overload. At least that's been the case for me.

Same here, so far. I've been lifting for 6 months so I'm not sure if it works for newbie gains only. But I cycle between sets of 15, 10, and 5. I have made strength gains on squats and deadlifts by doing sets of 15 as well as 10's and 5's, currently bringing my 1RM up to 2x bodyweight on both Squat and DL, so it's not like I'm making newb 'gains' just going from 50-55 lbs or anything.

ndj1979

bump....

pastryari

Tagging.

chrisdavey

Do you wanna do a "bodybuilder" bulk or a power lifter bulk?

I don't understand what you are saying here?

Do you want to train for aesthetics or strength? I know you can do both but I think you need some kind of direction to really pick a program.

Even if one were training for purely aesthetics, the goal is still to get stronger. For a beginner though, just focussing on getting a base level of strength by doing all the full body compounds (assuming competent) is the best method IMO. Once a decent level of strength is achieved they generally look better anyway and then choose what direction they want to go with. If you look at programs by 3DMJ who are very successful natural BBers, the majority I've seen have a low rep element to build strength and then accessory movements in the hypertrophy rep ranges. (similar to Layne Norton's PHAT)

Hendrix7

yes, you will get better hypertrophy results with a 3x10 setup than 5x5. It is more optimal.

Maybe, but i don't think the difference is as exaggerated as people think.

5x5 = 25 reps, 3 x 10 = 30 reps so the time under tension is not that different and the 5x5 group is going to be able to use significantly higher loads and progress in weights faster. 5x5 was the original rep scheme of bodybuilders.