To cardio first or not to cardio first
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Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move. And please read. I did say dependent on exercise, source of full percentage changes, but from fat storage (with the exception of possibly long marathon like training or competition) the calories burned aren't that significantly higher. Lol and it doesn't take days for glycogen restorage. Where'd you get that information from?NorthCascades wrote: »Where those calories come from first will ALWAYS be glycogen. The percentage from energy sources will change dependent on the exercise, but the percentage of fat burned during exercise isn't that significant. Fat is EXCLUSIVELY used for fuel at REST, not while exercising
This doesn't even stand up to the common sense test. A well trained man has 2,000 to 2,500 kCal of glycogen when he's well recovered. Less than that is actually available for use during exercise; if you're riding a bike, you can't move the glycogen from your arm muscles to your legs.
If exercise only used glycogen, it would be impossible for anyone to exercise for more than a few hours at a time.
Because it takes days to replenish your glycogen stores, it would also be impossible to exercise again the following day.
But people routinely do this. The STP is a 202 mile bike ride. Most people take two days to finish, about 10 % do the ride in one day. RAMROD is "only" 152 miles, but involves 10,000 feet of elevation gain. People thru-hike the Pacific Crest Trail, some of them hike 45 miles per day for 2 months without a break.
In fact, when you get fit, your body adapts to use fat efficiently as a fuel source for exercise. Especially at moderate intensities.
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Regarding glycogen depletion/replenishment:
Ever see MMA fighters during weigh-ins? They got to those weights by cutting water weight, aka glycogen stores. They'll go out after weigh-ins, eat a bunch of carbs and drink plenty of water and go out and fight the next day at about 15-20 lb heavier than they weighed in. So, really - it can take less than a day to replenish most of one's glycogen.0 -
IF I do cardio (which is rarely now that I'm in a bulk) I only go for 15-20 minutes at the beginning of my work out to get it over with.0
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Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.0 -
Personally, I cardio later. If I cardio first, my squats suffer.0
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I do cardio before lifting for one simple reason: I love lifting, I hate cardio. If I do cardio first, guaranteed I will find the energy to lift. If I lift first, 90% of the time I'll find excuses to NOT do cardio.
So if I want any cardio done at all, it has to come first or never.2 -
I lift first and do cardio after so I can make sure Im not too tired to have proper form while lifting and prevent injuries, then if I have the energy I will do 10-20 min of cardio after. but thats just me2
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I do cardio before lifting for one simple reason: I love lifting, I hate cardio. If I do cardio first, guaranteed I will find the energy to lift. If I lift first, 90% of the time I'll find excuses to NOT do cardio.
So if I want any cardio done at all, it has to come first or never.
I'm like that with abs have to do them first
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The "fat burning zone" is misinterpreted. While one burns more fat by percentage at moderate to low intensity, if the duration is the same versus higher intensity exercise, one still burns more fat calories overall doing high intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.
And as for bonking, there's a reason gel packs and other simple carb packs are around for long endurance people. The body doesn't give fat as easily as people would like to think. And even in trained athletes, the reliance on carbs is more important. Heck if it were just about converting fat for energy for long endurance, it would make sense to be a fatter athlete with less muscle.
And if you really bonked out, you wouldn't move. You likely were really depleted, but true depletion of all glycogen would leave you in a fetal position.
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I do weights first at the gym then drive home and do Cardio on my personal bike0
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I do both. I do 10 mins cardio to help get warmed up, then I lift, and then finish with 10-15 mins of moderate cardio, to get my heart rate up and blood pumping.0
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I find it more efficient for myself when I do weights first, cardio second. Even better if I can do them in separate sessions.0
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Someone told me its better to do weights first and then cardio after...
Ive always done cardio first and then weights.... Have i been doin it wrong this whole time!? Why is it better to do cardio last??
The pertinent questions are:
1) "Better" for what? The word "better" without context is meaningless.
2) What are your goals? Are they primarily strength based, or primarily cardio based?
3) How intense is your strength training? How intense is your cardio?
If you're doing an intense strength training program with a lot of compound movements, doing cardio first may not be such a great idea. If you're doing light circuit training or (as some people do) just wandering around the weight room using whatever machine catches your fancy, it probably doesn't make much difference either way.
If your goals are primarily cardio based and the strength training is mostly an afterthought, maybe you'd want to do the cardio first, when you can devote the most energy to it. If you're incorporating HIIT workouts into your cardio, no way I'd do them before strength training. Truthfully, if I was doing HIIT, it would be on a day of its own, completely apart from strength training.
If you're simply asking which is "better" for weight loss purposes, it 100% doesn't matter. Do it whichever way best suits your personal preference. You're burning the same number of calories either way.
Personally - my primary focus is on strength training and my workout involves lifting heavy (for me) using mostly compound movements. I do about 5 minutes of cardio as a warm-up (usually the rower), then lift, then do 20-30 minutes of low/moderate intensity cardio afterward (walking/running on the treadmill, stationary bike, or rower).3 -
The "fat burning zone" is misinterpreted. While one burns more fat by percentage at moderate to low intensity, if the duration is the same versus higher intensity exercise, one still burns more fat calories overall doing high intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Ever see anyone depleted from using all their glycogen stores? They don't move.
Yes, I've bonked myself. Continued riding until I got home, but it became much more difficult and painful and my power output fell substantially. I was able to continue exercising without glycogen, by burning only fat, because people can do that.
Also, this only happens when people exert themselves at high intensity. That's what "the fat burning zone" is all about. That's how you do long endurance exercise without bonking, by using mostly fat instead of glycogen, by staying at moderate intensity levels.
And as for bonking, there's a reason gel packs and other simple carb packs are around for long endurance people. The body doesn't give fat as easily as people would like to think. And even in trained athletes, the reliance on carbs is more important. Heck if it were just about converting fat for energy for long endurance, it would make sense to be a fatter athlete with less muscle.
And if you really bonked out, you wouldn't move. You likely were really depleted, but true depletion of all glycogen would leave you in a fetal position.
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The bro-science in this post is very thick. Here are two articles with useful knowledge, written by people who know what they're talking about.
One of the fitness indicators that we hope to improve in the Base period has to do with using more fat and less glycogen (carb) for fuel during long endurance events. As your body becomes better at using fat to produce energy essentially your aerobic fitness improves.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html
... and ...
Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate fuel supplies are very limited in the body, such that carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities (e.g. triathlons and marathons). Fat fuel supplies are virtually unlimited in the body. Thus, by increasing their reliance on fat fuel and decreasing their reliance on carbohydrate fuel during race-intensity exercise, endurance athletes could theoretically delay fatigue and perform better. Endurance training and increased fat consumption are known to increase fat burning during exercise.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/can-you-become-a-fat-burning-machine
This is common knowledge and I could find you 100 other legitimate references if I had nothing better to do with my time.0 -
Okay so you've gone off on a tangent of ELITE endurance athletes and optimum usage of fat burning versus the average gym goer doing exercise 3x a week?NorthCascades wrote: »The bro-science in this post is very thick. Here are two articles with useful knowledge, written by people who know what they're talking about.
One of the fitness indicators that we hope to improve in the Base period has to do with using more fat and less glycogen (carb) for fuel during long endurance events. As your body becomes better at using fat to produce energy essentially your aerobic fitness improves.
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/becoming-a-better-fat-burner.html
... and ...
Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate fuel supplies are very limited in the body, such that carbohydrate fuel depletion is a major cause of fatigue during prolonged exercise at higher intensities (e.g. triathlons and marathons). Fat fuel supplies are virtually unlimited in the body. Thus, by increasing their reliance on fat fuel and decreasing their reliance on carbohydrate fuel during race-intensity exercise, endurance athletes could theoretically delay fatigue and perform better. Endurance training and increased fat consumption are known to increase fat burning during exercise.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/can-you-become-a-fat-burning-machine
This is common knowledge and I could find you 100 other legitimate references if I had nothing better to do with my time.
I'm not an idiot. I know how endurance athletes train and how their adaptability to fat usage is higher, but even in the articles genetics, how you train, how you eat and consistency is needed to achieve this. And that's a HUGE shift in how they train and eat, not the average gym goer. We're talking people in GENERAL population who exercise regularly for basic health. And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity. If you disagree, then go tell the Journals of Metabolism and Endocrinology they are wrong.
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I'm talking about how the body uses fats and carbs during exercise. Among people like me, who do this for fun and pleasure. "Elite" is a red herring, and your word, not mine.
If you know that people can be get in shape and burn fat as a fuel source, why did you say that they're unable to move when they use up their glycogen?0 -
And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise.
You have the proof by assertion thing down, anyway.0 -
I explained how the body works with usage of glycogen and fat for fuel. Glycogen primarily, fat secondary regardless of what exercise someone does. Duration and intensity (which I mentioned) will change percentages over time. And you didn't post articles relating to endurance athletes? Or is there somewhere in the article this applies to people in the general population who don't train that way?NorthCascades wrote: »I'm talking about how the body uses fats and carbs during exercise. Among people like me, who do this for fun and pleasure. "Elite" is a red herring, and your word, not mine.
Because they can't. Glycogen is needed to help create ATP for muscular contractions. Now while gluconeogenisis can help to create ATP, it's a slow system to convert fatty acids fast enough to if energy demand is high enough and caused someone to hit the wall. And even with good endurance athletes, with GREAT fat conversion in their metabolisms, when they hit the wall, it's because there is no trace of glycogen in their systems. Are there endurance athletes that don't carb up before a competition and just rely on fat? Why not? When it happens, what's the first thing they do to help remedy the issue? Would that be CARBS or fat?If you know that people can be get in shape and burn fat as a fuel source, why did you say that they're unable to move when they use up their glycogen?
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I don't know any of the science behind it but in my personal experience my heart rate (and calorie burn) is higher during cardio if I do my strength training first.0
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Primary after how long? The first minute.NorthCascades wrote: »And basic physiology 101 will tell you that glycogen first and foremost will be the fuel first used in the duration of any exercise at any intensity.NorthCascades wrote: »Fat is the muscles’ primary fuel for low- to moderate-intensity exercise. Carbohydrate is the muscles’ primary fuel for moderately high- to high-intensity exercise.
You have the proof by assertion thing down, anyway.
2 minutes? 5 minutes? Give me a figure here.
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